An adjustment for both Casual and Hardcore players to a simply "win-win"

[Debruh]

Just now, Steorra said:

This might be not suitable for a skill tree patch, but this is a potential balance option if it was needed.

Spamming cure-alls is literally a way to learn fuelweaver as Wendy. It's one of the strategies one does when still not being that good at the fight

Cure-all isn't that busted. Why is base kit getting slammed to make way for a skill?

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, thesooz9000 said:

We should get back on track instead of arguing over semantics, I still kinda think that gestalt abigail should be the only one with the player tag, but as long as shadow abigail doesn't get the player tag buff, I can live. Would prefer only gestalt abi having player tag tho.

As spamming cure-all's still makes normal abigail with blessed sisturn III extremely tanky, cutting out the reasons to use gestalt abi.

My personal idea is to make Lunar Abi become an extra options for those who prefer give almost no attention to Abi. I mean, Lunar Abi should be rollback in my suggestions. There's another simple way to balance the AFK boss killing - just diminish Lunar Abi's damage if Wendy stop attacking her target.

[Lardee]

Just now, Shining Galaxy said:

 

So what? Are you here to discuss the game or to maliciously attack @Steorra?

I'm the only one here who's trying to discuss the game. Understanding @Steorra and what he means by Casual and Hardcore player are necessary for that discussion. The only one who's taking this conversation away from the game would be you.

[Steorra]

4 minutes ago, Debruh said:

Spamming cure-alls is literally a way to learn fuelweaver as Wendy. It's one of the strategies one does when still not being that good at the fight

Cure-all isn't that busted. Why is base kit getting slammed to make way for a skill?

I personally think Cure-All spamming for regular Abi is not a issue tbh. But some people think this might be OP. I just give potential balance options, they are not a  necessary part for the whole logic.

[Yifei_]

32 minutes ago, Steorra said:

To make the "Player Tag" become more easier to achieve for average players, but Shadow Sisterhood II is unachievable when "Player Tag" activated; To make Shadow Abi become more fragile, take extra damage, as a balance change for its OP amounts.

These would satisfied two side of people. 

If you want Player Tag, go use regular Abi;

If you want highrisk highreward, you want the "downside", go use Shadow Abi.

Finally, I've seen a post that addresses the problem. I believe that such a solution will satisfy the most people. Thank you very much for your suggestion.
 

[Steorra]

4 minutes ago, Lardee said:

I'm the only one here who's trying to discuss the game. Understanding @Steorra and what he means by Casual and Hardcore player are necessary for that discussion. The only one who's taking this conversation away from the game would be you.

I'm sorry

[thesooz9000]

2 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I personally think Cure-All spamming for regular Abi is not a issue tbh. But some people think this might be OP. I just give potential balance options, they are not a  necessary part for the whole logic.

To be honest, I've tried out the afw boss fight with blessed sisturn III normal abi and normal abi with no blessed sisturn III, and the difference was astonishing, it felt three times easier, as I was able to focus on the hands without even looking at abigail, as she took care of fw and the woven shadows.

that's why I think blessed sisturn III shouldn't work for normal abigail imo.

[SilverSpoon]

I still not trust that who want Blessed Sisturn III Nerf doesn't just wanting Schadenfreude towards Wendy Player as long as continue to insult those who don't.

 

However, the same can be said to the opposite side.

[thesooz9000]

4 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I'm sorry

I think I might've referred to you as he instead of she as-well in some of my earlier posts, apologies, didn't see the Biography

[Lee lol]

25分钟前，thesooz9000说：

我同意其中的一些建议

 

然而，我仍然认为普通的abi不应该有玩家标签，只有格式塔abi应该有。

I agree. I think the player tag is too powerful. If ordinary Abi can have player tags, why do we still need to choose Gestalt? As one of the final forms, the gestalt should at least be more viable than ordinary Abi.

[Koomin]

Just now, Lee lol said:

I agree. I think the player tag is too powerful. If ordinary Abi can have player tags, why do we still need to choose Gestalt? As one of the final forms, the gestalt should at least be more viable than ordinary Abi

 

I would actually really love for normal Abi to be a viable choice still once you unlock the Gestalt and Shadow forms.  It would be cool if all 3 had their own strengths and reasons to choose them, and what you get from unlocking the new forms is more options and flexibility.  For example like the original post suggested, normal Abigail for tanking, Gestalt Abigail for kiting, and Shadow Abigail for glass cannon.  Normal Abigail just being obsolete and forgotten once the new forms are unlocked feels a bit sad.

[Steorra]

2 minutes ago, thesooz9000 said:

To be honest, I've tried out the afw boss fight with blessed sisturn III normal abi and normal abi with no blessed sisturn III, and the difference was astonishing, it felt three times easier, as I was able to focus on the hands without even looking at abigail, as she took care of fw and the woven shadows.

that's why I think blessed sisturn III shouldn't work for normal abigail imo.

I guess I could understand how the scenario would be like. AFW is already "easier" to Wendy if you have correct technique, and the Player Tag extremely diminished the skill needed of this combat. But I personally believe that only this scenario would be OK for general balance. I was Woodie mains after his skill tree patched out, Woodie could more easily to kill AFW by summoning treeguards in first year (it only depend on when you finished the Shadow Tri). 

[thesooz9000]

1 minute ago, Koomin said:

I would actually really love for normal Abi to be a viable choice still once you unlock the Gestalt and Shadow forms.  It would be cool if all 3 had their own strengths and reasons to choose them, and what you get from unlocking the new forms is more options and flexibility.  For example like the original post suggested, normal Abigail for tanking, Gestalt Abigail for kiting, and Shadow Abigail for glass cannon.  Normal Abigail just being obsolete and forgotten once the new forms are unlocked feels a bit sad.

I mean, it wouldn't be exactly forgotten, shadow abigail you would only ever use when you needed high damage, so against horde creatures, you would still wanna use normal abigail. considering gestalt abi isn't good at crowd control

[Lee lol]

刚才，Koomin说：

实际上，一旦你解锁了格式塔和阴影形式，我真的希望普通的Abi仍然是一个可行的选择。如果这3个都有自己的优势和选择它们的理由，那就很酷了，从解锁新表格中获得的是更多的选择和灵活性。例如，正如原始帖子所建议的那样，普通Abigail用于坦克，Gestalt Abigail用于风筝，Shadow Abigail用于玻璃炮。一旦新表格解锁，普通的Abigail就会过时并被遗忘，这感觉有点难过。

If all three forms of Abi have their advantages and playability, it will certainly be cool. I hope the rework of the gestalt this week can surprise people and give players a reason to choose the gestalt...

[WenericMember]

@Steorra

Ill probably make my own thread on these ideas, if thats okay with you.

The thread could also probably use a fresh dtart :P

[Steorra]

6 minutes ago, Lee lol said:

I agree. I think the player tag is too powerful. If ordinary Abi can have player tags, why do we still need to choose Gestalt? As one of the final forms, the gestalt should at least be more viable than ordinary Abi.

In my suggestions I adviced to rollback the original design of Gestalt Abi, that's one reason why I disagree that to keep Player Tag as Gestalt Abi only.

The original Lunar Abi already become almost invincible and Player Tag for her is not needed.

[thesooz9000]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

I guess I could understand how the scenario would be like. AFW is already "easier" to Wendy if you have correct technique, and the Player Tag extremely diminished the skill needed of this combat. But I personally believe that only this scenario would be OK for general balance. I was Woodie mains after his skill tree patched out, Woodie could more easily to kill AFW by summoning treeguards in first year (it only depend on when you finished the Shadow Tri). 

I don't really tend to count "Cheese strats" in my way of seeing how characters play / deal with downsides, the same way that I don't consider walter's ability to cheese fw by standing outside his arena and just shooting him, I assume that with time, just like the wendy bq boat cheese, and the voidwalking cheese, these will prob get patched out.

[SilverSpoon]

10 minutes ago, Lee lol said:

I agree. I think the player tag is too powerful. If ordinary Abi can have player tags, why do we still need to choose Gestalt? As one of the final forms, the gestalt should at least be more viable than ordinary Abi.

No, I hope that normal Abigail will also reduce vulnerable than before. Would it be possible to about half player tag?

-Gestabby: It has the highest defense and so it can be used even if left alone and high single-shot damage. In exchange, no AOE and Vex are weak (completely different from the conventional Abby).
-Abby: The most average. Defense than previous Abby that even casual players can use.
-Shabby: Vulnerable as before, but high damage AOE and strong Vex.

[NINA1917]

43 minutes ago, Lardee said:

What, specifically, makes a player casual?

What, specifically, makes a player hardcore?

Players who work hard to practice skills, pursue perfect combat, and challenge the boundaries of their characters - hardcore
Casual players - have no pursuit of combat skills, but this does not mean that they avoid combat completely, they will clash with bosses to obtain resources. They care more about boss drops than fighting.
They have a lot of fun in the game - accumulating resources, exploring the map, building a survival base, transforming the eternal realm, chatting and collaborating with friends.

[Lee lol]

刚才，Steorra说：

在我的建议中，我建议回滚Gestalt Abi的原始设计，这也是我不同意将Player Tag保留为Gestalt Abi的原因之一。

最初的Lunar Abi已经变得几乎无敌了，她不需要玩家标签。

The original gestat is really strong. Some people may not like that she can solo boss - but I want to say that this is optional. You can choose to control Abigail's solo boss, do nothing by yourself, or fight side by side with her. Yes, Abigail will hardly die - but that's the advantage of Gestalt.

 

If you are worried that she is too op, it is also a way to return the invincible frame and reduce the damage.

[Lardee]

Just now, NINA1917 said:

Players who work hard to practice skills, pursue perfect combat, and challenge the boundaries of their characters - hardcore
Casual players - have no pursuit of combat skills, but this does not mean that they avoid combat completely, they will clash with bosses to obtain resources. They care more about boss drops than fighting.
They have a lot of fun in the game - accumulating resources, exploring the map, building a survival base, transforming the eternal realm, chatting and collaborating with friends.

Finally someone attempting a specific explanation. So if I understand this right, it's a mentality, not necessarily one's actual skill level. In other words, you can be a hardcore player who only knows how to beat Deerclops and a casual player who knows how to beat every boss in the game as Wilson. 

[Steorra]

8 minutes ago, thesooz9000 said:

I don't really tend to count "Cheese strats" in my way of seeing how characters play / deal with downsides, the same way that I don't consider walter's ability to cheese fw by standing outside his arena and just shooting him, I assume that with time, just like the wendy bq boat cheese, and the voidwalking cheese, these will prob get patched out.

hmm I tend to think to let mobs kill mobs is not cheese but just a special playstyle, and this is one shining feature of DS/DST. For these years I haven't see any other game encourage this strategy like how DS/DST did, and I could always seen some message like "Oh it's a DS playstyle!" when the similar strategy happened in other game.

 

[NINA1917]

2 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Finally someone attempting a specific explanation. So if I understand this right, it's a mentality, not necessarily one's actual skill level. In other words, you can be a hardcore player who only knows how to beat Deerclops and a casual player who knows how to beat every boss in the game as Wilson. 

Understand correctly

[thesooz9000]

Just now, Steorra said:

hmm I tend to think to let mobs kill mobs is not cheese but just a special playstyle, and this is one shining feature of DS/DST. For these years I haven't see any other game encourage this strategy like how DS/DST did, and I could always seen some message like "Oh it's a DS playstyle!" when the similar strategy happened in other game.

 

I understand that, letting beefalos take care of hound waves, letting mactusks fight tallbirds, these were probably intended mechanics that would make this world feel more alive, however, spawning 20 treegaurds ontop of a boss def doesn't feel like it was intended imo, unless it was meant to be like that.

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, Lee lol said:

If you are worried that she is too op, it is also a way to return the invincible frame and reduce the damage.

I personally prefer to make Gestalt Abi losing damage if Wendy stop attack her target - which just similar like how Shadow Duelist perform with an AFKed Maxwell.