Lunar Abigail should have some way to transform back into its normal form. 月比应该有一些方法能转化回普通形态

[Mysterious box]

4 minutes ago, Xplan said:

I talked to lardee who is a veteran of this game.

i asked is there any problems that Wendy do less dmg than Wolfgang while Wendy is the "glass cannon". he said balance is not that important.

maybe you should argue with him.

Wendy is not a glass canon I'm not sure where that idea came from.

Also it seems like the goal going forward is just to see how far you guys can get away with buffing Wendy so why not just ask for god mode I'm sure if enough people say "I agree" it'll be considered.

[thesooz9000]

6 minutes ago, Xplan said:

I talked to lardee who is a veteran of this game.

i asked is there any problems that Wendy do less dmg than Wolfgang while Wendy is the "glass cannon". he said balance is not that important.

maybe you should argue with him.

Lardee hasn't even said anything in this thread lmao? who are you arguing with.

[YuRinshue]

10 minutes ago, thesooz9000 said:

We're making these posts to prevent something like that happening, also wurt and webber are not on that list lol..

I think this is a sequential event, like putting on socks first and then shoes. When you think Wendy should be restricted, it is necessary to first bring back those entities that are worse than her to a normal level, otherwise you are just "putting on shoes before putting on socks".

[Koomin]

23 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

To be honest, I don't think answering 'I agree' is a question. After all, the reason has already been given in the post, which can give the poster confidence and prevent the post from being covered by arguing posts. On the contrary, some people prefer to answer 'this OP, this should weaken' as it is incorrect, and they should provide convincing reasons instead of untested subjectivity. Also, why do you think skill trees should pay unbearable negative benefits for abilities? It seems that other people's skill trees don't have this problem, do they? Even the negative returns of Votox are negligible and do not even occupy insight points.

That is not really true.  A lot of the posts that people are commenting "I agree" underneath are not even giving reasoning.  Check out the original post in this thread even and try to find what the reasoning is.  It realistically says: "You can only turn Abigail into a different form based on the moon.  There should be other ways." Why should there be other ways?  Who knows.  They didn't explain.

Check out the post below that people are commenting "I agree" under.  The reasoning given for the first suggestion is that the poster "hopes that they can have the ability".  Why?  Who knows.

In answer to your last question: I don't think skill trees should have unbearable negative benefits for abilities.  I'm not sure why you think that.  I didn't even suggest a negative benefit in my post.  I just think if the ability is as strong as Shadow Abigail is it should come with making something else weaker, but have the skill overall still be a benefit if you use it well.  The other option would be to make Shadow Abigail's benefit much less if you prefer that. 

15 minutes ago, Xplan said:

is balance important or not.

if it is, why u ignored Wolfgang, Wurt, Webber , Maxwell

Because they are not in this beta so they are not on topic.  For what it is worth, I would love for some of those characters to have their abilities tuned down, but again, not on topic for the beta forum where we should be focusing on Wortox, Wendy, and Walter.

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, YuRinshue said:

I think this is a sequential event, like putting on socks first and then shoes. When you think Wendy should be restricted, it is necessary to first bring back those entities that are worse than her to a normal level, otherwise you are just "putting on shoes before putting on socks".

I would argue Wendy's already surpassed Wolfgang at this point assuming she doesn't get toned down after the holidays, She's definitely stronger than Webber, and Wurt would probably need the follower system rebalanced if major changes were to be made to her at this point though I'd agree she needs them. Wendy.

[YuRinshue]

17 minutes ago, Koomin said:

That is not really true.  A lot of the posts that people are commenting "I agree" underneath are not even giving reasoning.  Check out the original post in this thread even and try to find what the reasoning is.  It realistically says: "You can only turn Abigail into a different form based on the moon.  There should be other ways." Why should there be other ways?  Who knows.  They didn't explain.

Check out the post below that people are commenting "I agree" under.  The reasoning given for the first suggestion is that the poster "hopes that they can have the ability".  Why?  Who knows.

In answer to your last question: I don't think skill trees should have unbearable negative benefits for abilities.  I'm not sure why you think that.  I didn't even suggest a negative benefit in my post.  I just think if the ability is as strong as Shadow Abigail is it should come with making something else weaker, but have the skill overall still be a benefit if you use it well.  The other option would be to make Shadow Abigail's benefit much less if you prefer that. 

For the previous content, what I mean is that the post has already given a viewpoint, and since the people below agree, it is normal to assume that they hold the same viewpoint as the post. I don't quite understand why it is necessary to restate the reasons for agreement. As for the latter, I find it puzzling that your speech stated 'I hope Shadow Abigail will suffer more harm'.

14 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I would argue Wendy's already surpassed Wolfgang at this point assuming she doesn't get toned down after the holidays, She's definitely stronger than Webber, and Wurt would probably need the follower system rebalanced if major changes were to be made to her at this point though I'd agree she needs them. Wendy.

Sadly, your viewpoint is somewhat unreasonable. For example, in just 31 days, Wolfgang can go from having nothing to defeating all the bosses in this game before the crack opened. And now Wendy, in the hands of Lardee who stated on that forum that "Wendy is a glass cannon" and "Wendy is very strong", also needs 57 days to achieve the same goal. By the way, using Wilson's record is 44 days.

 

Addendum: Oh sorry, I looked again and found that Wolfgang only needs 19.8 days with a random map.

[Koomin]

9 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

For the previous content, what I mean is that the post has already given a viewpoint, and since the people below agree, it is normal to assume that they hold the same viewpoint as the post. I don't quite understand why it is necessary to restate the reasons for agreement. As for the latter, I find it puzzling that your speech stated 'I hope Shadow Abigail will suffer more harm'.

Sadly, your viewpoint is somewhat unreasonable. For example, Wolfgang can go from having nothing to defeating all the bosses in Famine in just 31 days. And now Wendy, in the hands of Lardee who stated on that forum that "Wendy is a glass cannon" and "Wendy is very strong", also needs 57 days to achieve the same goal. By the way, using Wilson's record is 44 days.

I think my reasoning is getting lost in the language translator that I assume you are using unfortunately since the reply didn't really address anything I said, and it seems you think I said stuff that I did not.  Happy to leave this discussion here since we cannot appropriately communicate.

[Mysterious box]

14 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

Sadly, your viewpoint is somewhat unreasonable. For example, Wolfgang can go from having nothing to defeating all the bosses in Famine in just 31 days. And now Wendy, in the hands of Lardee who stated on that forum that "Wendy is a glass cannon" and "Wendy is very strong", also needs 57 days to achieve the same goal. By the way, using Wilson's record is 44 days.

I'd say your viewpoint is flawed Wendy as a character has one of the highest damage outputs while offering far more benefits than Wolfgang which would factually make her a better character via offering somewhat equivalent strength while offering superior utility even if he does more damage 1v1. Even the notion that she's currently a glass canon is flawed because she doesn't have any defensive penalty which is what a glass canon is. 

Another thing to consider is that speedruns are rather meaningless for balance unless the game is only catering to the speedrunning community which don't starve does not.

[YuRinshue]

5 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I'd say your viewpoint is flawed Wendy as a character has one of the highest damage outputs while offering far more benefits than Wolfgang which would factually make her a better character via offering somewhat equivalent strength while offering superior utility even if he does more damage 1v1. Even the notion that she's currently a glass canon is flawed because she doesn't have any defensive penalty which is what a glass canon is. 

Another thing to consider is that speedruns are rather meaningless for balance unless the game is only catering to the speedrunning community which don't starve does not.

If racing cannot prove the difference in character strength, I think relying on DPS attacking sandbags cannot prove it even more. Everyone knows that Wendy's high damage does not exist in actual boss battles. If you spend the energy taking care of Abigail, your damage efficiency can only reach the level of Wigford or even Wilson, and your fault tolerance is lower than theirs.

[Mysterious box]

4 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

If racing cannot prove the difference in character strength, I think relying on DPS attacking sandbags cannot prove it even more. Everyone knows that Wendy's high damage does not exist in actual boss battles. If you spend the energy taking care of Abigail, your damage efficiency can only reach the level of Wigford or even Wilson, and your fault tolerance is lower than theirs.

This just isn't true and there are various videos showcasing it. Also if your argument is that people aren't skilled enough to do so then I could say the same for Wolfgang as a unskilled Wolfgang player will also finish a boss fight slower than a skilled Wilson...assuming they didn't die.

[Catapult 2.0]

44 minutes ago, thesooz9000 said:

We're making these posts to prevent something like that happening, also wurt and webber are not on that list lol..

If you use Wolfgang instead of Wilson as a benchmark for character balance in the Skill Tree era (which is synthetic), you'll see that characters with skill trees are well balanced, with the exception of Wigford and Wendy, and Wilson, who lacks a chance to rework.
I'm a 4.8k all-character proficient player, and the main reason I buffed Wendy was because I was worried that she would be slightly weaker than the balance of the skill tree era like Wigford

如果你把沃尔夫冈而不是威尔逊作为技能树时代的人物平衡标杆（这种平衡是综合性的），你就会发现有技能树的角色平衡得还不错，除了薇格弗德和温蒂，以及缺少一次角色重做机会的威尔逊。
我是一名4.8k的全角色精通玩家，我buff温蒂的主要原因就是担心她像薇格弗德一样略弱于技能树时代的平衡

[YuRinshue]

3 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

This just isn't true and there are various videos showcasing it. Also if your argument is that people aren't skilled enough to do so then I could say the same for Wolfgang as a unskilled Wolfgang player will also finish a boss fight slower than a skilled Wilson...assuming they didn't die.

Unfortunately, all of my proofs come from the top operators. Attempting to protect Abigail would only reduce Wendy's output to mediocre levels and subject her to multiple times the operational pressure of other characters.

[thesooz9000]

1 minute ago, Natsuki Bamboo said:

If you use Wolfgang instead of Wilson as a benchmark for character balance in the Skill Tree era (which is synthetic), you'll see that characters with skill trees are well balanced, with the exception of Wigford and Wendy, and Wilson, who lacks a chance to rework.
I'm a 4.8k all-character proficient player, and the main reason I buffed Wendy was because I was worried that she would be slightly weaker than the balance of the skill tree era like Wigford

如果你把沃尔夫冈而不是威尔逊作为技能树时代的人物平衡标杆（这种平衡是综合性的），你就会发现有技能树的角色平衡得还不错，除了薇格弗德和温蒂，以及缺少一次角色重做机会的威尔逊。
我是一名4.8k的全角色精通玩家，我buff温蒂的主要原因就是担心她像薇格弗德一样略弱于技能树时代的平衡

If you use Wolfgang instead of Wilson as a benchmark for character balance in the Skill Tree era (which is synthetic), you'll see that characters with skill trees are well balanced, with the exception of Wigford and Wendy, and Wilson, who lacks a chance to rework.
I'm a 4.8k all-character proficient player, and the main reason I buffed Wendy was because I was worried that she would be slightly weaker than the balance of the skill tree era like Wigford

如果你把沃尔夫冈而不是威尔逊作为技能树时代的人物平衡标杆（这种平衡是综合性的），你就会发现有技能树的角色平衡得还不错，除了薇格弗德和温蒂，以及缺少一次角色重做机会的威尔逊。
我是一名4.8k的全角色精通玩家，我buff温蒂的主要原因就是担心她像薇格弗德一样略弱于技能树时代的平衡

If you use Wolfgang instead of Wilson as a benchmark for character balance in the Skill Tree era (which is synthetic), you'll see that characters with skill trees are well balanced, with the exception of Wigford and Wendy, and Wilson, who lacks a chance to rework.
I'm a 4.8k all-character proficient player, and the main reason I buffed Wendy was because I was worried that she would be slightly weaker than the balance of the skill tree era like Wigford

如果你把沃尔夫冈而不是威尔逊作为技能树时代的人物平衡标杆（这种平衡是综合性的），你就会发现有技能树的角色平衡得还不错，除了薇格弗德和温蒂，以及缺少一次角色重做机会的威尔逊。
我是一名4.8k的全角色精通玩家，我buff温蒂的主要原因就是担心她像薇格弗德一样略弱于技能树时代的平衡

If you use Wolfgang instead of Wilson as a benchmark for character balance in the Skill Tree era (which is synthetic), you'll see that characters with skill trees are well balanced, with the exception of Wigford and Wendy, and Wilson, who lacks a chance to rework.
I'm a 4.8k all-character proficient player, and the main reason I buffed Wendy was because I was worried that she would be slightly weaker than the balance of the skill tree era like Wigford

如果你把沃尔夫冈而不是威尔逊作为技能树时代的人物平衡标杆（这种平衡是综合性的），你就会发现有技能树的角色平衡得还不错，除了薇格弗德和温蒂，以及缺少一次角色重做机会的威尔逊。
我是一名4.8k的全角色精通玩家，我buff温蒂的主要原因就是担心她像薇格弗德一样略弱于技能树时代的平衡

If you use Wolfgang instead of Wilson as a benchmark for character balance in the Skill Tree era (which is synthetic), you'll see that characters with skill trees are well balanced, with the exception of Wigford and Wendy, and Wilson, who lacks a chance to rework.
I'm a 4.8k all-character proficient player, and the main reason I buffed Wendy was because I was worried that she would be slightly weaker than the balance of the skill tree era like Wigford

如果你把沃尔夫冈而不是威尔逊作为技能树时代的人物平衡标杆（这种平衡是综合性的），你就会发现有技能树的角色平衡得还不错，除了薇格弗德和温蒂，以及缺少一次角色重做机会的威尔逊。
我是一名4.8k的全角色精通玩家，我buff温蒂的主要原因就是担心她像薇格弗德一样略弱于技能树时代的平衡

If you use Wolfgang instead of Wilson as a benchmark for character balance in the Skill Tree era (which is synthetic), you'll see that characters with skill trees are well balanced, with the exception of Wigford and Wendy, and Wilson, who lacks a chance to rework.
I'm a 4.8k all-character proficient player, and the main reason I buffed Wendy was because I was worried that she would be slightly weaker than the balance of the skill tree era like Wigford

如果你把沃尔夫冈而不是威尔逊作为技能树时代的人物平衡标杆（这种平衡是综合性的），你就会发现有技能树的角色平衡得还不错，除了薇格弗德和温蒂，以及缺少一次角色重做机会的威尔逊。
我是一名4.8k的全角色精通玩家，我buff温蒂的主要原因就是担心她像薇格弗德一样略弱于技能树时代的平衡

If you use Wolfgang instead of Wilson as a benchmark for character balance in the Skill Tree era (which is synthetic), you'll see that characters with skill trees are well balanced, with the exception of Wigford and Wendy, and Wilson, who lacks a chance to rework.
I'm a 4.8k all-character proficient player, and the main reason I buffed Wendy was because I was worried that she would be slightly weaker than the balance of the skill tree era like Wigford

如果你把沃尔夫冈而不是威尔逊作为技能树时代的人物平衡标杆（这种平衡是综合性的），你就会发现有技能树的角色平衡得还不错，除了薇格弗德和温蒂，以及缺少一次角色重做机会的威尔逊。
我是一名4.8k的全角色精通玩家，我buff温蒂的主要原因就是担心她像薇格弗德一样略弱于技能树时代的平衡

What? why did you quote me like 8 times lol, anyways, no, characters skill trees should NOT use wolfgang as a bench-mark, that is an awful way to create this game.

furthermore, wigfrid is not a "weak character", she is one of the best and is one of the easiest to play.

[Catapult 2.0]

29 minutes ago, thesooz9000 said:

What? why did you quote me like 8 times lol, anyways, no, characters skill trees should NOT use wolfgang as a bench-mark, that is an awful way to create this game.

furthermore, wigfrid is not a "weak character", she is one of the best and is one of the easiest to play.

Caused by a bad network.
But this is the current situation, except for Wilson, almost every skill tree character has a comprehensive score as high as Wolfgang. Klei's current update is to make the game easier and easier. If Wendy is asked to target Wilson, she will sit on the bench for a long time in the future. Just like Wilson, when you get out of the novice stage, he will just be an exchange character.

糟糕的网络导致的。
但目前现状就是这样，除了威尔逊几乎每一个技能树角色综合评分都和沃尔夫冈一样高。klei现在的更新就是在让游戏越来越容易，如果让温蒂去对标威尔逊那她将会在未来很长一段时间坐冷板凳，就像威尔逊一样，当你脱离新手阶段后他将只是个交换角色。

[thesooz9000]

Just now, Natsuki Bamboo said:

Caused by a bad network.
But this is the current situation, except for Wilson, almost every skill tree character has a comprehensive score as high as Wolfgang. Klei's current update is to make the game easier and easier. If Wendy is asked to target Wilson, she will sit on the bench for a long time in the future. Just like Wilson, when you get out of the novice stage, he will just be an exchange character.

糟糕的网络导致的。
但目前现状就是这样，除了威尔逊几乎每一个技能树角色综合评分都和沃尔夫冈一样高。klei现在的更新就是在让游戏越来越容易，如果让温蒂去对标威尔逊那她将会在未来很长一段时间坐冷板凳，就像威尔逊一样，当你脱离新手阶段后他将只是个交换角色。

Ah, I see.

Anyway, I still believe that Wendy was a strong character before the skill tree, and the skill tree only exasperates this. I believe that them over-tuning Abigail's survive-ability will make the Wendy boss fighting experience less interesting, I believe that buffing team spirit commands is definitely the best way to increase Abigail's survive-ability without making it basically free.

[Catapult 2.0]

Just now, thesooz9000 said:

Ah, I see.

Anyway, I still believe that Wendy was a strong character before the skill tree, and the skill tree only exasperates this. I believe that them over-tuning Abigail's survive-ability will make the Wendy boss fighting experience less interesting, I believe that buffing team spirit commands is definitely the best way to increase Abigail's survive-ability without making it basically free.

We'd also prefer to make Abigail more manageable through skills like teamwork, but three versions later, this branch still doesn't help much with boss fights, and we don't have much hope for this branch (but I still have suggestions for this, you can check it out). Now that we've managed to get some stat tweaks, we want to save them until a better mechanic tweak comes along to avoid Wendy's "Wolfgang Balance" being weaker than the skill tree version

我们也更希望通过团队精神这类技能让Abigail更好操纵，但三个版本过去了这个分支仍然对boss战帮助不大，我们已经不对这个分支报很大的希望了（但我依然有写这方面建议，你可以去看看）。现在好不容易争取了一些数值调整我们想把他保存到出现更好的机制调整出现之后，以避免Wendy弱于技能树版本的“沃尔夫冈平衡”

[Xplan]

46 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

This just isn't true and there are various videos showcasing it.

can you achieve it? may i ask.

[Catapult 2.0]