Abigail's character tag skill is one of the few excellent changes at the moment.阿比的角色标签技能是目前为数不多的优秀更改

[Catapult 2.0]

PS:I'm a 4.8k hour all-character player, my playstyle is more combat-oriented, and I enjoy the way different characters use their own gimmicks to fight bosses. Wendy is my initiation character, and my Wendy has at least 600h playtime. Therefore, my opinions on Wendy's lower and upper limits of abilities and the horizontal comparison with other characters should have a certain reference.

Previous question:

1. Once Wendy loses Abigail in all boss fights, she will become a Wes-like existence in the entire boss fight, and Abigail's tolerance is extremely weak (600 HP, no armor, no player tag Abigail = 60 HP, 80% armor player), and very poor follow-up (moving with Abigail requires the player to move in advance or give orders), This allows Abigail to only take 5-6 damage hits when facing bosses with high damage aoe attacks (such as Toadstool, Celestial, The Twins, Armored Bear, etc.), and is extremely prone to death. This makes Wendy's boss fight experience feel like a very difficult one-life Roguelike game.
2. Although the crafting cost of flasks has been reduced, repeated use of recovery flasks in battle will interrupt the effects of other normal flasks. Due to the inability to use two normal potions at the same time and the long reloading action, the rapid rate of health loss in the face of the bosses mentioned above has made it impossible for Abigail to consider using other potions other than Spectral Cure-ALL.

Rationality and balance：

1. The player tag doubles Abigail's HP when facing the boss (equivalent to a player with 120 HP and 80% armor), and doubles her HP. Abigail is not so easy to die suddenly in a high-intensity environment, and Wendy has more opportunities to reincarnate Abigail. Even if the health regeneration is doubled, the Spectral Cure-ALL will only restore 126 health to this player, which requires Wendy to consume 48 health to craft.
2. The player tag is only valid for bosses, not most normal mobs. This is just to solve Abigail's weakness in the face of bosses, and it doesn't make his already good ability to fight mobs too powerful.
3. The player tag will bring the same aggro level to Abigail players, which is both a disadvantage and an advantage, Wendy needs to have better handling skills to protect Abigail from damage, but at the same time, it can also allow Abigail to share the damage better.
4. The effect of gaining the player tag is to put the Moon Tree Flower in the sisturn, which means that Wendy needs to reach a certain level of gameplay to get the effect. The first thing to do is to find Lunar Island, which is not difficult but will take some time; Then use the insect trap to catch the moon back and save it and breed it, or use the packing belt to save a large number of moon tree flowers for use (guide the player to defeat the queen bee, which is not very difficult for Wendy). These limitations on the game flow can not only guide the motivation of novice players, but also limit the early game play of advanced players from being too easy.

Some skeptical voices:

1.  Now some people say“ Weakness in boss battles is Wendy's shortcoming. The skill tree should only be used to expand the character's characteristics. Shouldn't it be used to solve the character's pain points?”

It can be seen that they lack the level of understanding of all the characters. Woodie's transformation countdown skills, embracing curse skills, two affinity skills, Wormwood's photosynthesis skills, Walter's woby courage and support medal skills are all reducing the shortcomings of these characters.

       2.“Abigail's excessive defense will allow Wendy to'OB’ in the BOSS battle”

  If you want a "player with 120 HP, 80% armor, a weapon with 40 damage, only 45% attack frequency, and can only eat jelly beans" to defeat the bosses mentioned above, not to mention whether she will take continuous damage and die in the process, please ask her how many "jelly beans" she needs in the process (each one consumes 3 Mourning Glory and 48 HP). Even if this 'OB' is feasible, it requires a lot of material!

  Then many roles can also be ‘OB’, and it costs less than Wendy, such as Webber, Wurt, Willon, why do these people turn a blind eye to them?

 

 

PS:我是一名游戏时长4.8k小时的全角色玩家，我的游玩风格更偏向战斗，我很享受不同角色使用各自的噱头对抗boss的方式。Wendy是我的启蒙角色，我的Wendy游玩时长不低于600h。所以对于温蒂的能力下限和能力上限以及与其他角色的横向比较上，我的见解应该都有一定的可参考性。

之前的问题：

1. Wendy在所有的boss战中一旦失去Abigail她将在整场boss战里变成Wes般的存在，而Abigail的承受能力极弱（600血量无护甲无玩家标签的Abigail=60血量80%护甲的玩家）并且跟随性很差（带着Abigail移动需要玩家提前移动或者下达指令），这让Abigail在面对有着高伤害aoe攻击的BOSS时（如蟾蜍，天体，双子魔眼，装甲熊等）及时使用回复药剂也只能承受5-6次伤害，极其容易死亡。这让Wendy的boss战体验像难度极高的一命肉鸽游戏。
2. 虽然药剂的制作成本已经降低了，在战斗中反复使用恢复药剂会不断打断其他普通药剂的效果。由于不能同时使用两种普通药且上药动作较长，在面对上文说的那些boss时，快速的掉血速度已经让Abigail不用考虑使用除了大血药以外的其他药剂了。

 合理性和平衡性：

1.  玩家标签让Abigail在面对boss时的血量翻倍（相当于120血量80%护甲的玩家），回血量也翻倍。Abigail在高强度的环境下没那么容易突然暴毙了，Wendy有更多的机会去给Abigail回血。而即使回血量翻倍，大血药也只是给这个玩家回复126点血量，这需要Wendy消耗48血量来制作。
2. 玩家标签只对boss有效，对大部分一般生物无效。这只是在解决Abigail面对boss的乏力并没有让本身就不错的打小怪能力变得过于强大。
3. 玩家标签会带给Abigail玩家一样的仇恨等级，这既是缺点又是优点，Wendy需要有更好的操作技巧保护Abigail免受伤害，但同时也可以让Abigail更好地分担伤害。
4. 获得玩家标签的效果是需要在sisturn里放入月树花，这意味着Wendy需要达到一定的游戏流程才能获得该效果。首先要找到月岛，这并不难但会花费一些时间；然后是用捕虫网将月娥抓回来保存并繁殖，或是使用打包带将大量月树花保存起来使用（引导玩家打败对温蒂来说不是很难的蜂王）。这些在游戏流程上的限制既能引导新手玩家的游戏动力，又能限制高手玩家游戏前期游玩过于轻松。

一些质疑声音：

1. 现在有一些人说“在boss战中弱势是Wendy的缺点，技能树只应该用来拓展角色特性，不应该用来解决角色的痛点吗？”

     可以看出他们是缺少对所有角色的了解程度的。Woodie的变身倒计时技能、拥抱诅咒技能、两种亲和技能，Wormwood的光合作用技能，Walter的woby勇气和支援勋章技能等这些不都是在降低这些角色的缺点吗。

2.  

   “Abigail过高的防御会让Wendy能够在BOSS战里‘OB’”

     如果要让一个“120血、80%护甲、拿着40伤害的武器、攻击频率只有45%，只能吃糖豆的玩家”去打败上面说的那些boss，先不说她会不会在这个过程中受到连续伤害暴毙，请问她在这个过程中需要多少“糖豆”（每制作一个消耗3哀悼荣耀和48血量）。这种‘OB’就算可行也是需要消耗大量材料的！

     很多角色也可以‘OB’,而且比Wendy花费更少,如Webber,Wurt,Willon，这些人为什么对他们视而不见？

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kamen Rider]

Agree! For Wendy, Abigail is her sisters, adding the 'player' tag, which can make her better combat ability in the game.

[Steorra]

Yes this change goes into good direction finally. It might have resulted some new issue, but I believe that to fix those new issue by other method is far meaningful than a simply rollback for the player tag change. We should move on rather than circle back to where we started.

[Lardee]

The question about removing a character's downsides shouldn't be your personal feelings about "balance" or pointing to other characters and saying "look at what they've got!".

The question should be: 

1. What problem is this change trying to solve?

2. Are there already solutions to this problem?

 

The answer to question 1 is Abigail's survivability in boss fights.

The answer to question 2 is YES. There are already multiple solutions to this problem.

There already exists both a high skilled, low cost solution and as well as a low skilled, high cost solution. Other skills have made the low skill, high costs solutions way cheaper while others have given Wendy additional tools for high skill, low cost gameplay.

 

THIS is why slashing Wendy's weakness by 75% is a horrendously bad change. Weaknesses are responsible for making characters unique and interesting just as much as their strengths. This change removes what makes Wendy gameplay interesting and turns her into Wilson with AoE. And for what reason? Not because there's a problem that needs to be solved, but rather some people think the game and everyone who plays it should submit to their subjective feelings about balance and difficulty.

 

Quote

 

1.  Now some people say“ Weakness in boss battles is Wendy's shortcoming. The skill tree should only be used to expand the character's characteristics. Shouldn't it be used to solve the character's pain points?”

It can be seen that they lack the level of understanding of all the characters. Woodie's transformation countdown skills, embracing curse skills, two affinity skills, Wormwood's photosynthesis skills, Walter's woby courage and support medal skills are all reducing the shortcomings of these characters.

Skill trees shouldn't be deleting weaknesses. They should be giving you tools that allow you to work around weaknesses. Abigail's control skills are a perfect example of how to give the player tools to work around weaknesses without just deleting them.

I don't think curse embracer eliminating Woodie's downside is good game design, however that's not Woodie's major weakness. His major weakness is the inability to use items while in Wereform. Letting Woodie do that would have been even worse than giving Abigail the player tag.

Wormwood's weakness is inability to heal form food, not inability to heal at all. 

Wobby's courage and support are bad skills.

[Catapult 2.0]

29 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Woodie's downside is good game design, however that's not Woodie's major weakness.

Not being able to pick up things while transforming is just one of the disadvantages, which is about the same as the high mental consumption when transforming, the forced transformation when the moon is full, and the transformation to empty hunger.

 

32 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Wobby's courage and support are bad skills.

But you have to admit that a lot of skill trees are just weakening the shortcomings of the players, which is one of the meanings of skill tree design, which you don't like but there are many players who do. There are also a lot of skill trees that eliminate shortcomings, such as woxtox's skill of removing monster tags, not overflowing too much soul skill, soul jar skill, do you need me to continue to list.

[Lardee]

11 minutes ago, Natsuki Bamboo said:

Not being able to pick up things while transforming is just one of the disadvantages, which is about the same as the high mental consumption when transforming, the forced transformation when the moon is full, and the transformation to empty hunger.

Woodie can't even use items. That means no panflute, ice staff, torch, perogies, healing salves, walking cane, magi, nightmare amulet etc. That's by far his biggest disadvantage.

Force transformations had to be removed because of moonstorms. Woodie had no other way to deal with them except character swap.

Empty hunger and sanity drain should have stayed, but were so minor it wasn't worth mentioning.

11 minutes ago, Natsuki Bamboo said:

But you have to admit that a lot of skill trees are just weakening the shortcomings of the players, which is one of the meanings of skill tree design, which you don't like but there are many players who do. There are also a lot of skill trees that eliminate shortcomings, such as woxtox's skill of removing monster tags, not overflowing too much soul skill, soul jar skill, do you need me to continue to list.

Skill trees addressing shortcomings of players is fine. Skill trees deleting character weaknesses is not. 

Wortox skill to remove monster tag isn't good, but at least it's a tradeoff where he gains extra weaknesses rather than just a buff. The other skills are all bad game design which does nothing but make Wortox less unique and play more like Wilson.

[Catapult 2.0]

3 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Woodie can't even use items. That means no panflute, ice staff, torch, perogies, healing salves, walking cane, magi, nightmare amulet etc. That's by far his biggest disadvantage.

Force transformations had to be removed because of moonstorms. Woodie had no other way to deal with them except character swap.

Empty hunger and sanity drain should have stayed, but were so minor it wasn't worth mentioning.

Skill trees addressing shortcomings of players is fine. Skill trees deleting character weaknesses is not. 

Wortox skill to remove monster tag isn't good, but at least it's a tradeoff where he gains extra weaknesses rather than just a buff. The other skills are all bad game design which does nothing but make Wortox less unique and play more like Wilson.

You don't like it anymore, but you have to admit that weakening character shortcomings is one of the functions of the skill tree, so the design of character tag skills makes sense

[Lardee]

1 minute ago, Natsuki Bamboo said:

You don't like it anymore, but you have to admit that weakening character shortcomings is one of the functions of the skill tree, so the design of character tag skills makes sense

The question isn't what will Klei possibly do with the skill tree. If that were the case there's no point in discussing this at all, we'd just leave it up to Klei.

[RiceMilk]

I am still unsure if player tags are a good thing for Abigail.

It is very clear that I need Abigail's survival ability to become stronger during boss battles, and the player tag can achieve this, but the method is very rough.

Perhaps evaluating the entire combat experience will only be effective once the skill tree is determined as a whole, as we don't know if there are any unknown skills that can match the player's tags.

My expectation is definitely that Abigail can play different roles in the boss battle, ensuring that Wendy's characteristics are not destroyed. She should fulfill her responsibilities as a combat character in the later stages of the game.

 

1 hour ago, Lardee said:

Woodie can't even use items. That means no panflute, ice staff, torch, perogies, healing salves, walking cane, magi, nightmare amulet etc. That's by far his biggest disadvantage.

Force transformations had to be removed because of moonstorms. Woodie had no other way to deal with them except character swap.

Empty hunger and sanity drain should have stayed, but were so minor it wasn't worth mentioning.

Skill trees addressing shortcomings of players is fine. Skill trees deleting character weaknesses is not. 

Wortox skill to remove monster tag isn't good, but at least it's a tradeoff where he gains extra weaknesses rather than just a buff. The other skills are all bad game design which does nothing but make Wortox less unique and play more like Wilson.

I think Wendy's only weakness is her lower damage rate than the average person. The fact that 'Abigail is prone to death' has only recently emerged with game updates, and it would not have happened earlier. The reason for this phenomenon is that more and more powerful enemies appear in the game, and players also receive various powerful equipment to fight against them, but Abigail did not enjoy this gain.

Therefore, the real problem is that Abigail has been left behind by the update. Abigail can no longer fulfill the responsibility of making Wendy a fighting character in the new era.

[lio516]

21 minutes ago, RiceMilk said:

and the player tag can achieve this, but the method is very rough.

I don't think so, it doesn't affect Abigail's chances of dying in the daily game, it also makes him live longer than before in boss battles,  even if you really want to weaken him, you should start somewhere else

[RiceMilk]

16 minutes ago, lio516 said:

I don't think so, it doesn't affect Abigail's chances of dying in the daily game, it also makes him live longer than before in boss battles, and it doesn't hurt at all, even if you really want to weaken him, you should start somewhere else

There are many things that are more powerful than player tags. This is not to say that I think player tags are not strong, but to say that player tags are not irreplaceable - it essentially turn Abigail into a character with 1200 health and double health effects.

 

Of course, this is not the point, as just the player tag makes some people think Wendy is too powerful.