[Game Update] - 646982

[Echsrick]

11 hours ago, JesseB_Klei said:

• Choosing either Affinity skill will skew The Scales which cause inclinations to happen quicker.
• Neutral skills will count towards the locks on the Nice and Naughty sides of the tree.

not sure on the first one but

the second one, WE DIT IT WORTOX MAINS!

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, Echsrick said:

not sure on the first one but

the second one, WE DIT IT WORTOX MAINS!

It's the opposite it turns out, haha.

Working on a longer post with examples, but the neutral locks change is way less effective than I thought it would be, now that I can mess with builds in practice.

The affinity skew is perfect, though.

[Echsrick]

4 minutes ago, Dingle said:

It's the opposite it turns out, haha.

Working on a longer post with examples, but the neutral locks change is way less effective than I thought it would be, now that I can mess with builds in practice.

The affinity skew is perfect, though.

what? i mean, it sould be more freedom i imagine

[Dingle]

15 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

what? i mean, it sould be more freedom i imagine

You effectively save one point on Naughty, no matter what. I found one exception, a good-ish but kind of niche build that lets you save 3 points on Nice, but you should not get an affinity in that build.

Like I said, I'll make a bigger post on this when I can and link it here. It will have example builds and pictures. I think I saw you say you weren't playing the beta, so the big post will be easy to follow!

Edited December 14, 2024 by Dingle
Missed an s

[Debruh]

1 hour ago, thesooz9000 said:

lmao

Bro did not have to do him like that

[MarsLombax]

Cool, now you can study SOUL DECOY 3 and get an improved soul storage, keeping the good Vortox and giving up the flute skills, which are not really needed

[Jppacs]

I love you guys, thank you so much for considering community feedback!

5 hours ago, Echsrick said:

what? i mean, it sould be more freedom i imagine

Don't forget about me, the fellow Warly main who was a wortox main in the past and just added our dear imp back to his character pool.

[Dingle]

@JesseB_Klei Here you go, a lot of thoughts on the Hotfix, with example builds and requests.

Summary:

Affinity Skew is great! No changes that I can think of.

The Neutral Unlocks don't really seem to lead to much. I saw a post from @OMEGASCRUFF that came to the same conclusion. You mostly just maybe save one Naughty point, in most builds, but only if you're grabbing the Soul Jar (no Greed or Covetous) and only one Soul Damage skill. Grabbing anything else in Naughty makes it moot.

Reverberation and Soul Jar clog things up. More detailed explanation in my post, above.

[Dingle]

Oh, edit: The "save one point in naughty unlocks" is a kind of a mirage after thinking about it for a bit.

I don't think there's a good point in just getting Impromptu Flautist, then stopping and not grabbing at least one more Neutral Perk.

[Koomin]

Agree that the locks being affected by neutral skills doesn't really do anything once you try it.  Not taking soul jar would be basically intentionally self limiting, and not taking reverberation is also almost intentional self limiting (especially once you have an affinity).  Since those skills aren't on a branch with a lock, you have to invest at least 4 or 5 points in a side already to even encounter a lock.  The lock change with the current state of the tree basically has no effect (and without deeper changes covered below I wouldn't mind it it was just removed for simplicity).

The things making builds stiff are:

-The number of filler points in branches.  Reaching souls 1 and reaching souls 2 should be combined.  Soul thief 1 and soul thief 2 should be combined.  Lifebringer 2 and soul decoy 2 could honestly just be deleted.  They are there specifically to cost-limit builds, and the skills they cost-limit already are limited by the locks.  For the skills that should be combined, make the effect slightly weaker to offset the reduced insight cost and not make it too strong (ie make t range boost slightly smaller than if you chose both of them currently).  Based on the latest hotfix for other characters, it seems skill tree condensation is definitely on the table, and would be the fix here.

-Abilities that should realistically be base kit abilities being deep in branches.  Soul jar should be a tier 1 ability, there is no build where you would not want it.  Having it be tier 2 effectively gives Wortox 13 insight points.  Reverberation is also critical (but is super strong, so I'm not sure how to fix this since making it tier 1 seems too strong).  Having it be tier 3 effectively removes another 3 points, giving Wortox effectively 10 points of actual choice, which is where the perception of limited builds comes from.

Edited December 14, 2024 by Koomin

[Echsrick]

1 hour ago, Dingle said:

The Neutral Unlocks don't really seem to lead to much

now if the locks were only 4 points and neutral works for it then i think we get better results

[Koomin]

3 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

now if the locks were only 4 points and neutral works for it then i think we get better results

The locks being 4 points I think would just make them pointless as-is.  For example, since you are basically required to take knabsack and soul jar, by the time you take soul decoy 1 and soul decoy 2 you would unlock the lock, and at that point it might as well not exist.

If soul decoy 2 was just deleted entirely it would make the lock still effectively have an impact on builds, but open up new build options for naughty builds that include the exploding decoy, and for nice builds to sneakily use neutral skills to break the lock.

[asdsaax]

I don't like this change because it forces my prefered neutral Wortox tree to be naughty, unless I sacrifice one of jar upgrades for something useless from nice tree, which is still a nerf

But it will benefit people who hate jar upgrades or want heal steroids from nice inclination, better panflutes, decoys AND affinity at the same time

Which is stupid because "Nice" tree shines the best during late game where u can use souls as ammo for your enl. crown (due to 5 sanity per soul) and you don't need decoys because shadow harvester is supposed to help you with grind... you know... IN LATE GAME? (We are talking about 110 DMG per hit which is the highest consistent for Wortox given he is alone)

I guess it gives late game (nice) build for Wortox some early game utility at expense of overflowing greed which is very helpful for the crown reloading BUT for early game neutral and naughty Wortox were just better and rightfully so? Because that's their job for falling off in comparison to nice one.

In summary it over-buffs "nice" Wortox and anyone who doesn't want to sacrifice flute upgrades or hates jar upgrades

Nerfs "neutral" Wortox that aims for early game boosts and no inclination because of that affinity point, at expense of maxed out healing and late game synergy with crown for crushing stuff like dfly and toadstool

Does absolutely nothing for full "naughty" (has both decoys and pierce) players unless you want the poopiest soul bastion/twintails at expense of lifted spirit branch which is mega vital for Wortox and affinity because that's what the change will let you have now?????

I think the tree already had nuances and it balanced itself in it's own way before the change

L change, it just erased going neutral and boosted nice Wortox for no reason, which deleted any thoughtful decision making and sacrifice of perks for another

The second screenshot with nice inclination is essentially the what this change brought, you can now enjoy good healing, 110 on hit in late, nice early game AND the flute perks because people don't want to sacrifice the flute despite of pleasant pastorale competing with soul bastion when it comes to saving up souls for hops via better healing = lesser soul usage vs being dependent on passive generation for mobility 

Trust me, as "nice" wortox it's worth to go for decoys at expense of flute perks if you want it to be viable early and reach late game or just enjoy other builds and celestial portal yourself later.

[Jppacs]

3 hours ago, asdsaax said:

I don't like this change because it forces my prefered neutral Wortox tree to be naughty, unless I sacrifice one of jar upgrades for something useless from nice tree, which is still a nerf

But it will benefit people who hate jar upgrades or want heal steroids from nice inclination, better panflutes, decoys AND affinity at the same time

Which is stupid because "Nice" tree shines the best during late game where u can use souls as ammo for your enl. crown (due to 5 sanity per soul) and you don't need decoys because shadow harvester is supposed to help you with grind... you know... IN LATE GAME? (We are talking about 110 DMG per hit which is the highest consistent for Wortox given he is alone)

I guess it gives late game (nice) build for Wortox some early game utility at expense of overflowing greed which is very helpful for the crown reloading BUT for early game neutral and naughty Wortox were just better and rightfully so? Because that's their job for falling off in comparison to nice one.

In summary it over-buffs "nice" Wortox and anyone who doesn't want to sacrifice flute upgrades or hates jar upgrades

Nerfs "neutral" Wortox that aims for early game boosts and no inclination because of that affinity point, at expense of maxed out healing and late game synergy with crown for crushing stuff like dfly and toadstool

Does absolutely nothing for full "naughty" (has both decoys and pierce) players unless you want the poopiest soul bastion/twintails at expense of lifted spirit branch which is mega vital for Wortox and affinity because that's what the change will let you have now?????

I think the tree already had nuances and it balanced itself in it's own way before the change

L change, it just erased going neutral and boosted nice Wortox for no reason, which deleted any thoughtful decision making and sacrifice of perks for another

The second screenshot with nice inclination is essentially the what this change brought, you can now enjoy good healing, 110 on hit in late, nice early game AND the flute perks because people don't want to sacrifice the flute despite of pleasant pastorale competing with soul bastion when it comes to saving up souls for hops via better healing = lesser soul usage vs being dependent on passive generation for mobility 

Trust me, as "nice" wortox it's worth to go for decoys at expense of flute perks if you want it to be viable early and reach late game or just enjoy other builds and celestial portal yourself later.

Before most of the time taking neutral skills felt out of place with the theme of balance, and you got very stuck when you needed to get skills with locks. You HAD to take 1 point into knabsack to get clones or soul pierce, you HAD to take the twintailed heart or the mapping skill if you wanted the second heal perk. the first situation is a waste of points because without damage upgrades nobody is using knabsack, hambats and dark swords exist, also if you are playing solo and want the bonus heal proc for yourself you also had to take the map expansion perk or the useless revive item, having the option to use neutral skills for locks increses build diversity and makes flute skills more desireable, it solves 2 problems with 1 fix. You are complaining about having more options, when in reality you can just choose to restrict yourself, cater the skill tree to what you desire to do as a player. Having to go all out healing or having to go all out damage is fun and you can still do it. Skills on the base of naughty side feeling weaker without taking the ones from the top is an entirely different issue. 

Having options for more damage as a nice wortox and more options for support as naughty wortox is only a problem if you don't wan't to have these kinds of diverse builds, a naughty wortox is still weaker when healing himself compared to a nice one even with the bonus heal perk and a nice one can't be as greedy with souls as a naughty one, you still have to manage skill points to get desired tendency, you just don't have to take skills you think are useless for your playstyle if you don't want to.

It's a win win situation, options are never a bad thing, your choices still matter.

[ApoIIo]

17 hours ago, KvetekSK said:

It is really intresting idea and it would be completely fine if it stayed like how it is now.

I thought that the lunar affinity will help the nice inclination and shadow would go to naughty inclination
it would make sense because the lunar protects you from harm and shadow deals double dmg, like the skills for each sides
it is pretty good to have the first inclination points be locked by affinity example: if you want soul pierce you would also unlock Covetous Collector to deal more dmg with them, so it would not need another skill to unlock them, same goes with the soul decoy 3 (for the dmg) 

The damage buff caps at 1.25x for 100 souls which doesn't even let pierce souls break the 34 damage threshold, only buffing their damage by 6. With pierce I skip covetous collector altogether. For decoy it is a bit better buff but I still do not find it worthwhile so I don't take it.

15 hours ago, thesooz9000 said:

lmao

Pls I had 4 people send me this conversation with captions like "look forums funny" and I learned today that no one on discord recognized me on here

[asdsaax]

20 minutes ago, Jppacs said:

You are complaining about having more options, when in reality you can just choose to restrict yourself, cater the skill tree to what you desire to do as a player.

I'm complaining because going neutral inclination is straight up nerfed and you waste points/perks or have to sacrifice affinity because of the change if you wish to stay neutral

Meanwhile nice inclination already had stuff going on as late game pre-rift content crusher that enables late game items like CC crown and yet now it has wider arsenal for early game for no reason

We don't have more options, just misplaced power budget

 

EDIT:

and because of neutral inclination getting gutted I believe we have even less options now, because nice one matches neutral in performance in early game + you don't lose points awkwardly just to keep balance between inclinations

And why anyone should go into neutral one now considering all options?

Nice Wortox already had his place in balance as worse early game for godlike late but now it doesn't matter

Edited December 15, 2024 by asdsaax

[Jppacs]

6 minutes ago, asdsaax said:

I'm complaining because going neutral inclination is straight up nerfed and you waste points/perks or have to sacrifice affinity because of the change if you wish to stay neutral

Meanwhile nice inclination already had stuff going on as late game pre-rift content crusher that enables late game items like CC crown and yet now it has wider arsenal for early game for no reason

We don't have more options, just misplaced power budget

what do you mean? if you go nice you can't afford many offensive skills due to how many skill points you have left since you still have to take 2(3 if you take no affinity for some reason) nice skills over naughty side amount, how is getting an exploding clone  OR soul pierce a misplaced power budget? It's not like you become wolfgang because you do some bonus damage.

[Dingle]

4 hours ago, asdsaax said:

I don't like this change because it forces my prefered neutral Wortox tree to be naughty, unless I sacrifice one of jar upgrades for something useless from nice tree, which is still a nerf

But it will benefit people who hate jar upgrades or want heal steroids from nice inclination, better panflutes, decoys AND affinity at the same time

Which is stupid because "Nice" tree shines the best during late game where u can use souls as ammo for your enl. crown (due to 5 sanity per soul) and you don't need decoys because shadow harvester is supposed to help you with grind... you know... IN LATE GAME? (We are talking about 110 DMG per hit which is the highest consistent for Wortox given he is alone)

I guess it gives late game (nice) build for Wortox some early game utility at expense of overflowing greed which is very helpful for the crown reloading BUT for early game neutral and naughty Wortox were just better and rightfully so? Because that's their job for falling off in comparison to nice one.

In summary it over-buffs "nice" Wortox and anyone who doesn't want to sacrifice flute upgrades or hates jar upgrades

Nerfs "neutral" Wortox that aims for early game boosts and no inclination because of that affinity point, at expense of maxed out healing and late game synergy with crown for crushing stuff like dfly and toadstool

Does absolutely nothing for full "naughty" (has both decoys and pierce) players unless you want the poopiest soul bastion/twintails at expense of lifted spirit branch which is mega vital for Wortox and affinity because that's what the change will let you have now?????

I think the tree already had nuances and it balanced itself in it's own way before the change

L change, it just erased going neutral and boosted nice Wortox for no reason, which deleted any thoughtful decision making and sacrifice of perks for another

The second screenshot with nice inclination is essentially the what this change brought, you can now enjoy good healing, 110 on hit in late, nice early game AND the flute perks because people don't want to sacrifice the flute despite of pleasant pastorale competing with soul bastion when it comes to saving up souls for hops via better healing = lesser soul usage vs being dependent on passive generation for mobility 

Trust me, as "nice" wortox it's worth to go for decoys at expense of flute perks if you want it to be viable early and reach late game or just enjoy other builds and celestial portal yourself later.

Why neutral? Just to not go naughty? Are you using the Reaper with this build, or the knabsack?

[Jppacs]

4 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Why neutral? Just to not go naughty? Are you using the Reaper with this build, or the knabsack?

Another reason I suggested this change was because once you get a shadow reaper if using shadow affinity or brightshade sword and helm if using lunar affinity you don't want to waste a point on knabsack at all, only if you are addicted to soul jars. 

[asdsaax]

1 minute ago, Jppacs said:

what do you mean? if you go nice you can't afford many offensive skills due to how many skill points you have left since you still have to take 2(3 if you take no affinity for some reason) nice skills over naughty side amount, how is getting an exploding clone  OR soul pierce a misplaced power budget? It's not like you become wolfgang because you do some bonus damage.

Because decoys are meant for early game soul farming and before the change

as "nice" Wortox you could get either only decoys OR fancy panflutes in early game +the late game power spike

and that fact made his early game worse

Neutral Wortox had that thing going on that he could have both pleasant pastorale and decoys for smooth early game at expense of late game synergies

But since "nice" can have everything now, the balance got ruined and going neutral isn't just pointless but in overall worse and that's what I mean with misplaced power budget. It's not just damage but also utility and how everything evolves through game

+ Very often you are forced into inclination if you try to be optimal and neutral which usually hinders you

8 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Why neutral? Just to not go naughty? Are you using the Reaper with this build, or the knabsack?

Yep I enjoy neutral souls because you need less healing and you can teleport freely and maintain knabsack

Meanwhile naughty consumes much more for healing which results in worse soul hopping and maintenance of knabsack feels bad

I go both reaper and knabsack upgrade for early game. I love better, available and consistent hambat/darksword + affinity buffs are nice everywhere

[Dingle]

7 minutes ago, asdsaax said:

Because decoys are meant for early game soul farming and before the change

as "nice" Wortox you could get either only decoys OR fancy panflutes in early game +the late game power spike

and that fact made his early game worse

Neutral Wortox had that thing going on that he could have both pleasant pastorale and decoys for smooth early game at expense of late game synergies

But since "nice" can have everything now, the balance got ruined and going neutral isn't just pointless but in overall worse and that's what I mean with misplaced power budget. It's not just damage but also utility and how everything evolves through game

+ Very often you are forced into inclination if you try to be optimal and neutral which usually hinders you

Yep I enjoy neutral souls because you need less healing and you can teleport freely and maintain knabsack

Meanwhile naughty consumes much more for healing which results in worse soul hopping and maintenance of knabsack feels bad

I go both reaper and knabsack upgrade for early game. I love better, available and consistent hambat/darksword + affinity buffs are nice everywhere

I see. I like the changes a lot because I had the opposite problem: Preferred builds forces me into Neutral, which I didn't want.

What about getting rid of the pan flute perks? That would set you Neutral. And you'd heal for more due to Soul Bastion I.

[Jppacs]

13 minutes ago, asdsaax said:

Because decoys are meant for early game soul farming and before the change

as "nice" Wortox you could get either only decoys OR fancy panflutes in early game +the late game power spike

and that fact made his early game worse

Neutral Wortox had that thing going on that he could have both pleasant pastorale and decoys for smooth early game at expense of late game synergies

But since "nice" can have everything now, the balance got ruined and going neutral isn't just pointless but in overall worse and that's what I mean with misplaced power budget. It's not just damage but also utility and how everything evolves through game

+ Very often you are forced into inclination if you try to be optimal and neutral which usually hinders you

so you can take two skills that facilitate soul farming, but there is still a soul cap anyways. Neutral being worse than nice has nothing to do with what skills you take, it is an issue of nice tendency being overtuned. "woah I can become neutral to pigs and bunnies, and better manipulate my sanity, or I can get nothing :C", nice tendency has no downside, since losing more sanity when you eat souls is not really a disadvantage.

Edited December 15, 2024 by Jppacs

[ApoIIo]

41 minutes ago, asdsaax said:

And why anyone should go into neutral one now considering all options?

That's the thing. You don't go neutral. Why would you? They added two special end points, the aim is to make you pick one, not be in the middle.

41 minutes ago, asdsaax said:

Meanwhile nice inclination already had stuff going on as late game pre-rift content crusher that enables late game items like CC crown and yet now it has wider arsenal for early game for no reason

How many people spend how long between killing fw/cc and opening rifts for such an awkward midpoint to matter + I honestly think nice is the earlygame inclination, the sanity control at the stage when you don't own everything and more great.

 

Also 110 being the highest damage Wortox can reach on his own is just misinformation, it's 176 with reaper.

Edited December 15, 2024 by Bearger Enjoyer

[Jppacs]

6 minutes ago, Bearger Enjoyer said:

That's the thing. You don't go neutral. Why would you? They added two special end points, the aim is to make you pick one, not be in the middle.

How many people spend how long between killing fw/cc and opening rifts for such an awkward midpoint to matter + I honestly think nice is the earlygame inclination, the sanity control at the stage when you don't own everything and more great.

To make me want to go neutral, nice inclination should have a downside like naughty has reduced healing. The way it is now, being nice gives you two perks for free, while naughty has two perks and a disadvantage, and neutral has neither. Neutral is equal in power to naughty but nice is better than both. You either go naughty for full offense or nice for now. There is no reason to not take nice is what they mean.

Edited December 15, 2024 by Jppacs

[asdsaax]

3 minutes ago, Bearger Enjoyer said:

That's the thing. You don't go neutral. Why would you? They added two special end points, the aim is to make you pick one, not be in the middle.

 

16 minutes ago, asdsaax said:

Yep I enjoy neutral souls because you need less healing and you can teleport freely and maintain knabsack

Meanwhile naughty consumes much more for healing which results in worse soul hopping and maintenance of knabsack feels bad

I go both reaper and knabsack upgrade for early game. I love better, available and consistent hambat/darksword + affinity buffs are nice everywhere

I explained that already and why I shouldn't be able to pick neutral?

I don't want to lose classic wortox stats + thematically people aren't just bad or good, but can be much more complex like Wortox himself

 

5 minutes ago, Bearger Enjoyer said:

How many people spend how long between killing fw/cc and opening rifts for such an awkward midpoint to matter + I honestly think nice is the earlygame inclination, the sanity control at the stage when you don't own everything and more great.

It does matter as the best pre-rift content crusher with consistent 110 DPS and viable synergies with CC crown, bone armor and void robe which outperforms the scythe in majority of situations 

and I don't want my neutral gaming gone because people say so lol