wortox Problems with the Neutral branch (11-29 build feedback)

[Dingle]

I don't think I would ever put points into the Neutral branch for Wortox in its current version. Here's my reasons why, after testing it a bunch:

1. Wortox builds are super tight due to filler

The Wortox general design is strong capstones above weak filler. The exception that comes to mind is Soul Jar. 2/3 of his Nice and Naughty branch capstones also require 5 points in that branch. Notably, the Soul Damage mechanics are gated behind this.

2. Wortox builds are even more tight due to the Alignment Bonus mechanics

You need 3 more points in Nice over Naughty, or the other way around, to get the Wortox Nice/Naughty alignment bonus. Neutral counts as neither. The bonuses are so good that you will want one. Neutral feels like a build mistake, or a punishment. A point or two spent in Neutral usually makes this harder to get. This is ignoring having to spend a point in the lunar/shadow alignment.

3. The Neutral perks themselves don't seem worth the points

A single point gets you a free pan flute toot every 8 minutes or so. If you put a second point in, the toot gets you 6 souls. Thats less than a soul a minute for two points. Even if Wortox's perks werent being spent on other filler to hit capstones, I'd still consider these as weak filler perks. But there isn't even a strong capstone over these Neutral perks. There's a third perk but I think it's just getting replaced, or I hope it is.

Possible ideas I have to improve this:

1. Consolidate the souls toot and free toot perks into 1 single perk at the bottom of Neutral.

2. Alternatively, buff the Souls Toot perk by a lot. I still probably couldn't justify the 2 perk cost, but it would be less of a newbie trap if it gave 10 souls.

3. Make a point in Neutral count as a point in both Naughty and Nice. Example: If you had two points in Neutral, you would only need 1 point more Nice than Naughty to get the Nice Bonus. I saw this idea from someone else and really liked it.

4. Remove the 5 point locks in Wortox's tree. There's already a bunch of filler.

5. Make the Neutral perks not solely based on the pan flute. I think it was stated the devs are likely not going to change the design, though.

Anyone else agree, or think differently after trying the pan flute perks? If so, what perk build did you use?

[Cassielu]

Neutral perks may be  contradictory idea.

That makes you benefit from the skilltree without use any skill points, and then it actually becomes a naughty/nice disadvantage because you lost the perk you originally had when you getting naughty/nice.

[Dingle]

Is anyone actually testing or using the Neutral perks? I worry where it will be a situation where no one uses them, so no one gives feedback. So then it will be launched as-is, where no one will use them.

I have seen one person mention getting the pan flute first perk on these forums. They said they use it to tend to crops without using pan flute durability.

[Echsrick]

yes, those locks sure are stupid, 5 points in a side to be able to do it is just bad, it dont help that most of it is just filler just to unlock the actual real things, makin neutral even more so of a skill point waste...i realy do wish klei would listen to us too on wortox and walter suggestions to fix problems with it

[crushcircuit]

4 hours ago, Dingle said:

Is anyone actually testing or using the Neutral perks? I worry where it will be a situation where no one uses them, so no one gives feedback. So then it will be launched as-is, where no one will use them.

I have seen one person mention getting the pan flute first perk on these forums. They said they use it to tend to crops without using pan flute durability.

i do use the neutral perks! i think the free pan flute uses are very helpful personally, my main issue was just that it was much harder to utilize because of the time constraints before this patch. i havent tested the other two neutral perks extensively, though

[Dingle]

4 hours ago, Echsrick said:

yes, those locks sure are stupid, 5 points in a side to be able to do it is just bad, it dont help that most of it is just filler just to unlock the actual real things, makin neutral even more so of a skill point waste...i realy do wish klei would listen to us too on wortox and walter suggestions to fix problems with it

Prayers for Walter. I do think Klei is doing a good job with Wortox, though. I have to admit the issues are relatively small vs Walter's.

27 minutes ago, crushcircuit said:

i do use the neutral perks! i think the free pan flute uses are very helpful personally, my main issue was just that it was much harder to utilize because of the time constraints before this patch. i havent tested the other two neutral perks extensively, though

What is your build and playstyle like? I am curious. The other guy I saw was almost all Nice, 3 Neutral. He didn't even get the Soul Jar.

[crushcircuit]

44 minutes ago, Dingle said:

What is your build and playstyle like? I am curious. The other guy I saw was almost all Nice, 3 Neutral. He didn't even get the Soul Jar.

i also mostly go for a nice build - i haven't gotten the chance to play with friends during the beta yet so my build is still pretty loosey-goosey. i also don't have soul jars, but that's a specific personal choice of mine because while i don't particularly care for them, they ARE like one of the best things he has right now. i won't get into the specifics of that though, because that'd certainly derail the point of the post XD

the important parts of my current build are that i have the reaching souls and lifted spirits branches. in all honesty, though, i don't think reaching souls actually affects things as much as i would like it to and i don't think it's much of a viable option at the moment - i would have certainly taken lifebringer instead if i was playing with friends

i do enjoy using soul decoys and soul thief as well, though, and they seem to have a lot more use, at the very least in a solo situation. (i did want to get the full soul decoy branch, but i had trouble because, again, i didn't want to take soul jars and the knabsack is just... not particularly useful as a weapon, either. as you said in your post, it feels like i have to get a lot of filler perks to get the build i would actually want.)

TL;DR, i still have a lot to figure out as far as a precise build goes lol. i do stand by the panflute perk being one of my favorites, though

i really enjoy playing wortox as a sort of "aggressive support", i guess? i've also found the pan flute to be much better at helping me tackle things in my solo world than niceness' non-monster inclination perk, seeing as you get a free use each day and because i play pretty aggressively i can tend to bite off more than i can chew - it also helps with picking things off one by one, in combination with the perk that makes it so mobs have a period where they can't aggro on you after waking up. i also find myself going insane with niceness inclination extremely often, so if i'm fighting other mobs i can put them to sleep to give me time to properly deal with shadows.

it's notable that i also still have not progressed to late game on my current save, since i'm not used to doing bosses on my own, which also means that even though i do have affinity perks unlocked i cannot use them yet.

EDIT:

WOW. i'm glad you made me type all of that out because it made me actually think about how most of the perks are affecting my gameplay, and i do agree that it feels like you have to pick up a lot of perks you don't want to get the ones locked behind 5 nice/naughty perks or the inclinations you want.

i think the main issue with the neutral branch is that it has no inclination or benefit attached to being neutral. while it feels like it should be skills that you'd pick up alongside your preferred end of the tree, they don't really act that way at the moment because you'd probably WANT to keep perks from both ends, but still have your inclination.

maybe they could introduce some sort of unlockable inclination perk for neutral? not something you'd start out with, but something you'd unlock after obtaining a certain amount of perks. that way not committing to a specific side doesn't feel like you're missing something.

[Dingle]

30 minutes ago, crushcircuit said:

i also mostly go for a nice build - i haven't gotten the chance to play with friends during the beta yet so my build is still pretty loosey-goosey. i also don't have soul jars, but that's a specific personal choice of mine because while i don't particularly care for them, they ARE like one of the best things he has right now. i won't get into the specifics of that though, because that'd certainly derail the point of the post XD

the important parts of my current build are that i have the reaching souls and lifted spirits branches. in all honesty, though, i don't think reaching souls actually affects things as much as i would like it to and i don't think it's much of a viable option at the moment - i would have certainly taken lifebringer instead if i was playing with friends

i do enjoy using soul decoys and soul thief as well, though, and they seem to have a lot more use, at the very least in a solo situation. (i did want to get the full soul decoy branch, but i had trouble because, again, i didn't want to take soul jars and the knabsack is just... not particularly useful as a weapon, either. as you said in your post, it feels like i have to get a lot of filler perks to get the build i would actually want.)

TL;DR, i still have a lot to figure out as far as a precise build goes lol. i do stand by the panflute perk being one of my favorites, though

i really enjoy playing wortox as a sort of "aggressive support", i guess? i've also found the pan flute to be much better at helping me tackle things in my solo world than niceness' non-monster inclination perk, seeing as you get a free use each day and because i play pretty aggressively i can tend to bite off more than i can chew - it also helps with picking things off one by one, in combination with the perk that makes it so mobs have a period where they can't aggro on you after waking up. i also find myself going insane with niceness inclination extremely often, so if i'm fighting other mobs i can put them to sleep to give me time to properly deal with shadows.

it's notable that i also still have not progressed to late game on my current save, since i'm not used to doing bosses on my own, which also means that even though i do have affinity perks unlocked i cannot use them yet.

EDIT:

WOW. i'm glad you made me type all of that out because it made me actually think about how most of the perks are affecting my gameplay, and i do agree that it feels like you have to pick up a lot of perks you don't want to get the ones locked behind 5 nice/naughty perks or the inclinations you want.

i think the main issue with the neutral branch is that it has no inclination or benefit attached to being neutral. while it feels like it should be skills that you'd pick up alongside your preferred end of the tree, they don't really act that way at the moment because you'd probably WANT to keep perks from both ends, but still have your inclination.

maybe they could introduce some sort of unlockable inclination perk for neutral? not something you'd start out with, but something you'd unlock after obtaining a certain amount of perks. that way not committing to a specific side doesn't feel like you're missing something.

Thanks for the perspective! You did a good job explaining why you like the first pan flute perk, even though I still would not personally get it in its current form.

Yeah, maybe Neutral really just needs its own alignment bonus, somehow. Currently, it really feels like missing the Nice or Naughty bonus is a big penalty to the player.