[Walter] Recent feedbacks on Walter's skill tree, from the community.

[_mylilsunshine_]

This is a comment I made on the recent build discussion, I really don't want the dev to miss it so I'm posting a thread and including some more recent feedback. While I was a bit disappointed with how little has changed for Walter in this build, I still have high hopes that he will get the attention he deserves once the other two are finished. I understand that they are vastly more popular and handling them terribly will bring bad press.

Slingshot Upgrades

Spoiler

- The Slingshot can use some more kit upgrades, such as midgame material for the Grip, endgame material for the Band, and maybe rework/buff the Sticky Grip in some way (it's literally useless). The change in material from the Pig Skin Band to the Cat Band is really narrow, why would I ever craft the former when the effect of the Pig Skin Band is so negligible, and I could just kill some cats and visit the Marsh race war on day 1? There should be a significant and satisfactory change (in the effect and the materials used) between the upgrade stages, even if the craft has to be more expensive.
While the stats given by the upgrade are surprisingly substantial, they can still be better. 17% fire rate (estimated by Jakey) for the Void Grip does not do enough for its progression stage (post-Fuelweaver AND post-Rift). And the Cat Band gives about 2 units of space (estimated with Geometric Drop), the range really needs better upgrades.
Generally, the Sling kit is done pretty well, even though the frames are a bit bare at the moment. Thulecite allows for easy ammo-mixing in combat, but the Scrap frame only gives a double-damage charge shot, which is slower  than just manually shooting, and can miss. It's only apparent use is infinite ammo storage, but if you want to switch from ammo A to 999+ ammo B, you're dropping all 999+ ammo on the ground. This means you will generally want to have 2-3 spare fully upgraded Slingshots, but they require Enlightened Shard, which is silly. 

Rounds/Crafting

Spoiler

- The ammo perks can be bundled together, as currently, they're just a point sink, even more so than Woby's branch. Dreadstone is extremely underwhelming (even with the Planar damage), Shockscrap is in the same boat, but much costlier. Stinger Rounds could've been in the base kit, as Moon Glass is easily amassable, even more so with the current Proj Pro 2 perk. Gunpowder feels like it could've been AoE, an upgrade over Moon Glass, or have a special effect (like more significant staggering/stun). Honey Round is cute but not really combat-feasible before the Thulecite Frame.

- On the topic of Projectile Pro perks, while I acknowledge that 40 is simply too good, I do hope you guys also consider that there are single-player and multiplayer to balance. Too little ammo crafted, time sink for the former, and resource sink for the latter. I understand that you already have a plan to fine-tune the numbers, I just wish it wouldn't be too underwhelming and annoying.

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Also if they are going to lower the production amount of rounds, we need a way to carry many different types of damage rounds to make up for it. If Wendy can get a potion storage, Walter can get a pellet belt to store all his rounds.

- The current method of crafting rounds requires special stations for some of them, i.e Pseudo Ancient for Cursed Round. This is really inconvenient, especially since we don't have a dedicated round storage just yet. Wigfrid has one for her songs, Wortox is getting one for souls, Walter deserves to have something too. Even so, letting some rounds be crafted freely after prototyping is sorely needed.

Woby's Training

Spoiler

- Woby's training could be more streamlined, more intuitive, and simply better to the point of worth doing. This is being addressed by the Dev. Right now it is a bit confusing how to understand basically anything related to training. Datamining/wiki checking shouldn't feel mandatory when playing the game. Maybe you could implement a Canine Training Manual (or let Walter watch Cesar Millan the dog trainer) that explains the training process to the player.

- Fetch is basically useless, Dig is RNG in the training and in the loot. Bravery training is insanely (!) difficult and deadly. Why would Woby the Cowardly Dog need to be hit to be more brave? If anything, the way to train Bravery should be whenever Walter engages in melee combat. She would be more inclined to help him when he's in danger. And 4/4 Badge point is too little for how little the skills currently provide.

- Woby could use some adjustment to her max hunger and hunger drain if you intend for her to be a calvary (Agility, Brave, and Support Training). There is still her inventory to consider. There should be perks or reworks to how she interacts with the world. There's no reason Walter can't access her inventory, feed her, or use the sling kit while riding her!

- A thematic addition for Woby can be a training whistle that commands her to do basic actions, tricks, and tasks like sit, fetch, dig, carry (heavy items),  etc.

General

Spoiler

- The Alignment perks are really, truly, uncreative and slobby. Really? One (01) new ammo? That basically does the same thing but slightly better as the other 02 ammos (Honey & Slow-down)? With how uninspiring and flavorless they are, it leads to my next (personal) point:

Walter is NOT just his Slingshot and Woby. You gave him so many lore and personality-wise perks, like bee allergy, tree lover, camper, boy scout, camp story, fearlessness, uninterested in fashion, etc. Why throw it all away when designing his tree? Nothing about his skill tree has a WOW! factor, or shows that the Devs care about the character (personality-wise). He's not a combat character, or a meta character. He has his niche as a scout and he could lean into it a bit more.

- A lot of Walter's tree benefits are gated behind endgame items (rounds, upgrades) and 100+ days of surviving (Woby training). Testings show that Agility training in particular, is painfully slow. You need to constantly ride Woby (which is not feasible) for 6%/day, 16-18 days in total to train to 100%. That is just silly! A lot of Walter's current perks work in the early game: farming birds for Kramp sack, scouting the overworld and cave with Woby, healing/sanity station with cheap tents,.. The new skill tree shouldn't be so far apart in progression.

IMHO, skill tree/rework should be thematic and faithful to the design of the character, meaning everything can be explained thanks to canon or headcanon. That's what makes it flavorful, and that's why +10 planar damage is not worthy of a skill tree. At first I was indifferent, if Walter gets a decent skill tree, cool, if not, also cool. But now seeing how dedicated the community is toward him, and how much potential he can have, I'm more than willing to raise my voice so that the boy can eat well!

[Tarnishedmax]

I don´t really agree with the skill tree focusing on only the slingshot and Woby to be a bad thing since besides those 2 things Walter is a really complete character but the skill tree seriously needs to have a mid game upgrade and to boost the potency of the late game upgrades, you can´t really add much to the slingshot besides the thulecite frame mid game as you can just get 2 silk, the spot and cat tails on like day 2, they really need to either completely replace the sticky handle with some mid game material related handle (like a slurper pelt or something) and sling, i do think endgame slingshot holds really well for its purpose but more fire rate and like an actually good scrappy frame would be just perfect. Also you are so right we need that ammo canister so badly, they cant just force you to make ammo on specific stations and not give you a way to store it 

[Mysterious box]

Something I'd like to add is I feel like we shouldn't have to go to Woby's training station to figure out her progress I think we should have another way to check it on the go even if we need to go to the station to assign a training method.

[flamboyant wolf]

40 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Something I'd like to add is I feel like we shouldn't have to go to Woby's training station to figure out her progress I think we should have another way to check it on the go even if we need to go to the station to assign a training method.

maybr next to the skill tree when examing yourself? 

[_mylilsunshine_]

5 hours ago, Tarnishedmax said:

I don´t really agree with the skill tree focusing on only the slingshot and Woby to be a bad thing since besides those 2 things Walter is a really complete character

Since Walter is infamously known as the 'perk soup' character, where everything about him doesn't synergize (gameplay-wise), I'd say that he wasn't considered a 'complete character' before by the community. So when you pick out only 02 ingredients in the soup to prepare and have more of them, those two can overpower the soup, turning a 'perk soup' into a 'sling & Woby soup' and take away the flavor of the character.

As for me, he was already a complete character before, everything from his bee allergy to his cheese slingshot. That means when Klei pick out 02 things to focus on, everything else feels like they're left behind, when they could also have been better.
 

5 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Something I'd like to add is I feel like we shouldn't have to go to Woby's training station to figure out her progress I think we should have another way to check it on the go even if we need to go to the station to assign a training method.

Also valid. Since training is implemented as badges for Woby, something that she could wear, maybe progress should show up when you examine her. If the Canine Manual suggestion is implemented, it can also show progress when examined, as if Walter has been taking notes.

[_mylilsunshine_]

Shameless bump, but also some new notes:
- The Scrappy frame desperately needs to have its behaviour tweaked. Dropping infinite ammo like you're Sonic the Hedgehog just because you did an oopsie and right-click another ammo type will lead to disaster.
- Slingshot ammo UI is currently bugged (?) when using an Enlightened Crown.
- The charge shot for both the Thulecite and Scrappy frame should be tweaked. When I first tested, I thought you had to hold right-click to charge the shot, the longer you hold, the more powerful the shot (up to a point), and release right-click to shoot. This is not the case, where you just right-click to aim, and left-click to confirm and shoot. I believe this is quite counter-intuitive, especially if people have played other games with similar special/charge attack mechanics. The constant right-click, left-click just to fire a double damage shot at a lower rate can be annoying after some time, or lead to carpal tunnel syndrome.
- There should be more side-grade instead of linear upgrades that are essentially fetch quests. The Sling kit and Sling ammo should be more diverse and unique, not ammo A and ammo A+. The staggering void between early game and endgame progression should be filled. Using Honey Round on bosses feels like a joke, while Icker is deserving, but feels like the only option. You go from 120 ammo items to infinite, and that's silly, please give us a marble bag. 
- A whistle skill branch to command Woby