There's a disparity between Wormwood's enlightened skills and everyone else

[HowlVoid]

The two last enlightened skills in Wormwood's skill tree are gated behind RNG and late game equipment.

Lunar cultivator 3 and lunar Guardian 2 which is highly unfair given everyone else gets them practically from spawn. 

You have to defeat CC in every world in order to get to lunar Guardian 2. This is blatantly not on par with Willow who can use both unlocked spells day 1 (and Bernie forms). 

Lunar cultivator 3, could be a good early game skill given wormwood has the hardest time healing the first 5ish days (for tanking). However, you need to find the lunar island or get insanely lucky with seeds in order to obtain a dragon fruit. Meanwhile, Bernie's transformations are always present. 

These are endgame skills that require defeating an endgame boss. When comparing Wormwood to everyone else there seems to be a lack of consistency. 

Solutions:

Attach Wormwood's Lunar guardian to his blooming (so it has a cost), and make it a % based on the weapon he has equipped. Only obtaining planar dmg with weapons that have planar damage.

For lunar cultivator 3, simply give Wormwood a higher chance to get dragon fruit from seeds in autumn. (This would be great for healing beefalos too). 

I welcome any feedback on other possible solutions. I apologize if I got any information wrong, I'm on console and unfortunately am at a disadvantage when providing feedback during the beta stages.

[flamboyant wolf]

tbh Wigfrid's affinity skills can only be used after the rifts are open too, since the songs need some rift materials.

On the topic of Wormwood, since he summons brightvines with the bsword, I always thought it'd be cool if he could summon those birchnut tenticles from the evil tree with some pre rift plant based weapon too, if he has the skill. Idk what that weapon could be though, the only plant "weapon" I remember is the kelp whip, which isn't exactly the most sustainable option. Maybe he could get some new bramble craft, idk? Vine whip? Poison Ivy shiv? Idk, just brainstorming here. I feel like maybe making his own weapon would be a bit too out of character for him(or maybe not, who knows what goes on in that head), so probably best if it wasn't something directly related to him. 

[HowlVoid]

It might be easier to just lock Willows enlightened skills post rifts 

[Swiyss]

38 minutes ago, skile said:

tbh Wigfrid's affinity skills can only be used after the rifts are open too, since the songs need some rift materials.

On the topic of Wormwood, since he summons brightvines with the bsword, I always thought it'd be cool if he could summon those birchnut tenticles from the evil tree with some pre rift plant based weapon too, if he has the skill. Idk what that weapon could be though, the only plant "weapon" I remember is the kelp whip, which isn't exactly the most sustainable option. Maybe he could get some new bramble craft, idk? Vine whip? Poison Ivy shiv? Idk, just brainstorming here. I feel like maybe making his own weapon would be a bit too out of character for him(or maybe not, who knows what goes on in that head), so probably best if it wasn't something directly related to him. 

Let's remember he's not a fighter class

[Jakepeng99]

1 hour ago, HowlVoid said:

The two last enlightened skills in Wormwood's skill tree are gated behind RNG and late game equipment.

Lunar cultivator 3 and lunar Guardian 2 which is highly unfair given everyone else gets them practically from spawn. 

You have to defeat CC in every world in order to get to lunar Guardian 2. This is blatantly not on par with Willow who can use both unlocked spells day 1 (and Bernie forms). 

Lunar cultivator 3, could be a good early game skill given wormwood has the hardest time healing the first 5ish days (for tanking). However, you need to find the lunar island or get insanely lucky with seeds in order to obtain a dragon fruit. Meanwhile, Bernie's transformations are always present. 

These are endgame skills that require defeating an endgame boss. When comparing Wormwood to everyone else there seems to be a lack of consistency. 

Solutions:

Attach Wormwood's Lunar guardian to his blooming (so it has a cost), and make it a % based on the weapon he has equipped. Only obtaining planar dmg with weapons that have planar damage.

For lunar cultivator 3, simply give Wormwood a higher chance to get dragon fruit from seeds in autumn. (This would be great for healing beefalos too). 

I welcome any feedback on other possible solutions. I apologize if I got any information wrong, I'm on console and unfortunately am at a disadvantage when providing feedback during the beta stages.

I dont see the problem. There is some progression with dragon fruit. Wormwood already has skills easily accessable straight away. Wilson, and Wigfrid also have skills locked behind final bossess so wormwood is not the odd one out, i don't get what you are trying to convey.

[HowlVoid]

13 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

I dont see the problem. There is some progression with dragon fruit. Wormwood already has skills easily accessable straight away. Wilson, and Wigfrid also have skills locked behind final bossess so wormwood is not the odd one out, i don't get what you are trying to convey.

Sorry if I wasn't clear I'm not talking about ALL skills, only the last affinity skills. Wormwood and Wig actually require end game loot. Willow, Wolf, and I think woodie? Do not. 

[arubaro]

i prefer wormwood balance and art over willow's kamehameha. Not because is op/useless but because it feels so off from dst

i wont feel that way if the moon fire was smaller but right now feels like a high quality anime modded character if thar ever exists

also i like that the only affinity perks he can have before activating the rifts are pets not shadows immunity or aoe kamehamehas day1

edit. also wormwood was really fun and my favourite character before skill trees. He got more buffs we could even wanted. Now he is, compared to characters pre skill trees, way too good at combat

i prefer if he stays as he is, only fixes to his pets are needed (and maybe a rewamp in his crafting plants branch)

[Trips]

2 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

The two last enlightened skills in Wormwood's skill tree are gated behind RNG and late game equipment.

Lunar cultivator 3 and lunar Guardian 2 which is highly unfair given everyone else gets them practically from spawn. 

You have to defeat CC in every world in order to get to lunar Guardian 2. This is blatantly not on par with Willow who can use both unlocked spells day 1 (and Bernie forms). 

Lunar cultivator 3, could be a good early game skill given wormwood has the hardest time healing the first 5ish days (for tanking). However, you need to find the lunar island or get insanely lucky with seeds in order to obtain a dragon fruit. Meanwhile, Bernie's transformations are always present. 

These are endgame skills that require defeating an endgame boss. When comparing Wormwood to everyone else there seems to be a lack of consistency. 

Solutions:

Attach Wormwood's Lunar guardian to his blooming (so it has a cost), and make it a % based on the weapon he has equipped. Only obtaining planar dmg with weapons that have planar damage.

For lunar cultivator 3, simply give Wormwood a higher chance to get dragon fruit from seeds in autumn. (This would be great for healing beefalos too). 

I welcome any feedback on other possible solutions. I apologize if I got any information wrong, I'm on console and unfortunately am at a disadvantage when providing feedback during the beta stages.

It seems like Klei is operating under the assumption that a group of players could blitz their way to post-rift stuff.. meaning stuff like day 1 max insight isn't so bad if they're expecting people to beat AF before the first winter. This wouldn't be so bad if they didn't release the rifts and the skill trees piecemeal... there's only so much content post AF/CC, so the balance seems pretty jarring when it's clear they're balancing for future stuff, not the current iterations of the game.

[GimplyGoose]

You can get dragonfruit without farming by going to lunar island and killing red saladmanders.

[lenship2]

locking every affinity skill behind rift progression would be good imo

bernie could have an upgradable affinity form requiring void tatters/brightshade husks, woodie could have a craftable item for each of his skills (amulet with iridescent gem/shadow idol that stacks with other wereforms), wolfgang's 1.3x affinities could be only applicable to "aligned" items and otherwise only be 1.1x, etc.

[Yuuko]

I think in general it would be good to lock these things away better, but since its only a pseudo NG+ I can only expect we'll see the lines blur further over time.  (one of my biggest gripes with the whole planar thing lol)

Willow and certainly some other characters are going to need to be exceptions because their power is more intrinsic to them.  Willow casting fire is Willow doing something - just like Woodie transforming or Maxwell summoning shadows.  Compare this to Wigfrid crafting her spear or Wormwood gathering reagents for his summons...

Its not fair in one sense, but I suspect many players of Wormwood are already picking him because of his oddities and stronger impact on the play experience - similar to Warly and maybe Wurt.  While you might ask for this I think if Wormwood didn't have features like this, his healing struggles, and niche bonuses like blooming + hunger drain, he might not appeal to you as much...  so do you really want him buffed?

Personally I don't like the idea of Wes being buffed.  I like to play him specifically as a character void of perks.  I haven't actually played him since his refresh b/c it just felt so wrong :\ 

[arubaro]

10 minutes ago, lenship2 said:

locking every affinity skill behind rift progression would be good imo

bernie could have an upgradable affinity form requiring void tatters/brightshade husks, woodie could have a craftable item for each of his skills (amulet with iridescent gem/shadow idol that stacks with other wereforms), wolfgang's 1.3x affinities could be only applicable to "aligned" items and otherwise only be 1.1x, etc.

i dont like the "upgrade old item with new material" route but they could lock the affinities until you make the deal with wagstaff and charlie when activating the rifts 

[HowlVoid]

1 minute ago, arubaro said:

i dont like the "upgrade old item with new material" route but they could lock the affinities until you make the deal with wagstaff and charlie when activating the rifts 

That sounds like a good compromise, I just would like to see some consistency across the board.

[Swiyss]

2 hours ago, arubaro said:

willow's kamehameha. Not because is op/useless but because it feels so off from dst

That's the whole reason I think they should just change it, it should look like fire, but powerful. Not a varg resprite.

[arubaro]

6 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

That's the whole reason I think they should just change it, it should look like fire, but powerful. Not a varg resprite.

im not against it looking blue. i think it would look cooler in red but makes sense that is the same fire that uses the varg since is wagstaff who is giving the perk like how the other affinity looks like NF since is Charlie who teaches it

the only problem i have is how big it looks

size matters after all 

[Swiyss]

2 hours ago, Shosuko said:

[Wes] I like to play him specifically as a character void of perks.  I haven't actually played him since his refresh b/c it just felt so wrong :\ 

I felt the same thing when they reworked him, I didn't like the ballon stuff neither the stat changes. But then with time I started to understand more what klei intended with the rework. Now I feel like the character is perfect. It's a good experience for those who know how to create healing options out of the blue and plan certain situations ahead. If you don't minmax as Wes right now, it's very likely you're going to either die or lose the fight and flee.

I have no idea on what they could do for his rework tho.

[PerJacob]

What do you all think about making the skilltrees tied to a world? I think it would help with balancing the perks. It fells off that you get access to powerful alignment perks (which unclock after deafeating FW and CC) on day one the moment you spawn in.

I doubt that Klei will change their minds but I can still hope.

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, PerJacob said:

What do you all think about making the skilltrees tied to a world? I think it would help with balancing the perks. It fells off that you get access to powerful alignment perks (which unclock after deafeating FW and CC) on day one the moment you spawn in.

I doubt that Klei will change their minds but I can still hope.

idk...  There are definitely stretches of the game I would define as early, mid, and late.  The early game is basically covering first autumn and maybe first winter.  Then you're in mid game until you clear AFW and CC.  After that is end game.

In the early game - perks and balance is pretty important.  Resources are not always abundant so cost vs benefit, time spent gathering and exploring, the order of obtaining certain gear and clearing bosses is vital.  The first season is incredibly focused for me with every moment spent in action with a large mental list of things to juggle based on what I find and when.

In the mid game - most gears are locked in, and its all about busy work.  Do pearls quests, find atrium, boat around for crab king, clear seasonal bosses and gather seasonal items.  Its very luck dependent how much free time I have here.  Boating for 3 days without finding salt sucks, but I can waste a bit of time, mess up, or even die without issue.

The late game - everything is on the table.  I have the best equipment, I'm building farms to mass produce grass, twigs, and any other resources I want.  Cost stops mattering and mistakes / dying become frivolous.  Sometimes in the end game I literally afk while waiting b/c the thing I want to do is next season.  After a year or so in end game all that is left is repeating fights, and mega basing.

So - to your point - yeah I think if the skills were focused on the early to mid game stretch, probably maxing out at surviving 1 year with locked perks until you defeat AFW and CC it would be pretty in-vibe with the game experience - however that would require a complete re-write of what the skills actually are b/c then each thing would need to be something that is good for that time frame, not too weak but not too strong.

As it sits the skill trees for Max, Wolf, Woodie and Willow definitely speed them up.  They need much less to plow through early game and hit the mid-game stride possibly being mid-game before first autumn ends.  Others like Wormwood (sry buddy) ramp him up more in line with the standard progression of a Wilson.  His perks are good, but they add enough extra tasks to overwrite their advantage - at least in progression from early to mid game.

[Swiyss]

26 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

After a year or so in end game all that is left is repeating fights, and mega basing.

Biggest problem in the game imo.

[Yuuko]

24 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Biggest problem in the game imo.

Eh, they have to make content for you to play it.  It doesn't just happen lol.  At a point every game gets completed - the only difference is whether we kill the game and roll credits, or let it keep rolling and we play around.  For games like Skyrim or GTA this may include a whole list of side-quests, and DST kinda fits in that theme - but the effect wears off after the first play through or two.  When I play GTA San Anrdeas, just like DST I'm rushing certain "end game" perks to make the game easier, and farming money super fast b/c I know how to do everything already.  I know what's best and I get it.  Certain perks make some parts of the game a lot easier, and once I'm done I'm just cruising around in my bullet proof car with unlimited ammo*  and having fun.

(no cheat code, just once you buy millions of rounds you basically have infinite ammo)

Conversely you can do challenge runs if you want to heighten your experience, using your knowledge to turn off certain perks and advantages to be more satisfied in your level of proficiency.  Playing GTA without doing any side quests for perks and cash makes the game a lot more challenging.

[HowlVoid]

1 hour ago, PerJacob said:

What do you all think about making the skilltrees tied to a world? I think it would help with balancing the perks. It fells off that you get access to powerful alignment perks (which unclock after deafeating FW and CC) on day one the moment you spawn in.

I doubt that Klei will change their minds but I can still hope.

For the affinity skills only? Yes. Everything else? No. 

There are plenty of skills that are only really good in the early game.

[Swiyss]

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

Eh, they have to make content for you to play it.  It doesn't just happen lol.  At a point every game gets completed - the only difference is whether we kill the game and roll credits, or let it keep rolling and we play around.  For games like Skyrim or GTA this may include a whole list of side-quests, and DST kinda fits in that theme - but the effect wears off after the first play through or two.  When I play GTA San Anrdeas, just like DST I'm rushing certain "end game" perks to make the game easier b/c I know about them all.  Certain perks make some parts of the game a lot easier, and once I'm done I'm just cruising around in my bullet proof car with unlimited ammo*  and having fun.

(no cheat code, just once you buy millions of rounds you basically have infinite ammo)

I thought that dst would fit nicely with something infinite to do. Megabasing is so boring imo, every time I do megabasing it feels bad, and I love decorating my builds. But something about terraforming a whole biome and making a huge base makes me wanna die and create a new world. Idk why but I just can't keep worlds. I keep burning everything when I'm done with a run or spawning meteors in my 800 days worlds.

Late game for wormwood is the same as late game for willow now, except that Willow gets everything day 1 which is weird. So after killing some brightshades and getting some new gear, I just repeat boss kills and then a huge feeling of depression hits me so hard that I stop playing and create a new world again. The game's replayability almost doesn't exist once you master it.

Every beta is a rush to learn everything, try every rush and then stop until the next beta. 

But I don't think Klei can do anything about this. I mean, they could make possible to link worlds, expand over the ocean, add gorge land or forge land.

If they're really focused on this, they could add the possibility to create 1 gorge and 1 forge servers per world.

[Yuuko]

4 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

I thought that dst would fit nicely with something infinite to do. Megabasing is so boring imo, every time I do megabasing it feels bad, and I love decorating my builds. But something about terraforming a whole biome and making a huge base makes me wanna die and create a new world. Idk why but I just can't keep worlds. I keep burning everything when I'm done with a run or spawning meteors in my 800 days worlds.

 

Same - I try to mega base, but anything beyond technical farming builds are beyond me.  I'm not artistic.  Most of my worlds last 2-300 days.  I think my longest was 400 days.  Eventually I just deleted it - or revel in the destruction and burn everything down.  Most of my play time is repeating through the start to end game as I described above with different characters, tactics, restrictions or goals, and sometimes multiplayer too.

4 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

 

But I don't think Klei can do anything about this. I mean, they could make possible to link worlds, expand over the ocean, add gorge land or forge land.

If they're really focused on this, they could add the possibility to create 1 gorge and 1 forge servers per world.

Eh, forge and gorge are great - I hope they keep the mods alive b/c they are fun to play sometimes, but Klei was losing money on those.  They couldn't justify it as a company without changing their monetization model to be more like league of legends with $10-20 skins and a MUCH MUCH larger playerbase...

[Swiyss]

12 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

But Klei was losing money on those.  They couldn't justify it as a company without changing their monetization model to be more like league of legends with $10-20 skins and a MUCH MUCH larger playerbase...

It's insane how league got that much money going around and the worst balance team in the entire existing of online games ever thanks to phreak.

I think one thing that looks good that Klei could implement to resolve the problem with replayability is to add infinite worlds, each world having a different server, but linked to each other.

But honestly. At this point man. Klei could just rethink everything and make DST an MMO. That is the only future of the game, we are already sorta moving towards that direction, but very slowly. For me it would break the market, they just dont have a team, money and time yet. But if that doesn't happen, then idk how long the game is gonna last.

China would accept the game very well, even with gatcha systems or expensive cosmetics..

[Evelo]

I think it is fine. Gives us something to look forward to when we unlock it for real. Delayed gratification.