Wigfrid skilltree needs improvement everywhere

[Keigo]

I get its really hard to make everyone happy but something about her skilltree just feels odd. 

I think focusing on her craftable gear was a mistake, she was already good in the early game and you cant give her late game gear or it wouldn't be fair to the rest of the cast, instead it would be beter for her to be kind of a weapon master where she gets a small bonus wearing all kind of gear. 

Now the riding tree i personally like it but it can be integrated in better ways. Faster domestications doesn't really matter neither the time riding.

 

To me she should be able to trade beefalos usual tankiness into more damage or scrap all that and let her domesticate a varg in a high risk high reward style. 

 

Also she is a fighter with various songs to buff her party, while i dont think she should have an army playstyle like wurt/webber she could really shine promoting a small party of 2-4 followers into battle. (pigs bunnymen, rock lobsters or even her beefalo) 

 

Now for last i know we are  already in beta so probably they cant change to much i just hope we as a community try to improve as much as possible before the official release,  with woodie and wormwood i saw a lot of content creators helping and being active in the forums so i hope to see the same interest this batch of skilltrees. 

[Trips]

Wanda and her 24 thulecite fragment weapon be like.. 

[DVGMedia]

The songs are the weakest part of wigfrids tree at the moment.
Im not sure if klei would want to touch the other aspects of wigfrid however. Like her lifesteal or innate tank.
they do kind of give it some bonus with innate plannar defense as a skill perk. so she is still having her tank.

But I think giving her abilities through her crafting is really the only thing they can do. her songs are kind of hard to use outside of a boss arena And the only thing i can think for them is to lower the rate she loses inspiration 

her crafts however give her a more tangable feeling since she is actually doing more things instead of just tank.
dash shield and also knockback resistance.

It shows they put a bit of the forge into wigfrid since she has her dash from there as well as the greatswords parry in the shield. 

I think the main problem is determining how to make things work for consoles aswell.   this whole seperate item ability stuff works for console

[Swiyss]

2 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

But I think giving her abilities through her crafting is really the only thing they can do

they locked it behind a skill tree, so it should be hard to obtain right?

well, instead of just surviving 100 days to get the crafts, I argue SOME perks should be lock by WORLD instead of ACCOUNT. so then we can actually feel like they're worth it instead of feeling kinda just... out there.

[DVGMedia]

4 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

they locked it behind a skill tree, so it should be hard to obtain right?

well, instead of just surviving 100 days to get the crafts, I argue SOME perks should be lock by WORLD instead of ACCOUNT. so then we can actually feel like they're worth it instead of feeling kinda just... out there.

why not both?
 The items are pretty strong themselves But what needs to be adjusted is the use of them. 

looking at the spear its shows single target is like 3 hits and dash.  that makes it so that the spear doesn't use durability at all.
its interesting how this spear is the only electric damage weapon that doesn't do bonus damage.

Cause electric weapons initially are pretty weak. but they do more because they already have a damage buff. morning star and electric darts do 27 and 60 on base.
 but do 43.2 and 90 on regular targets. and plus the bonus damage for  wet targets.

however wigs spear does the damage its supposed to with only a .5 wet bonus.  its important though to think of this since wigfrids life steal is based on the base damage of a weapon and not the damage dealt.  so having a high base damage is good for wigfrid.

I think her lightning weapon should follow the proper electric damage scaling.  base weapon damage is 59.5 making her weapon do 89.25 due to base electric damage and then 147 with wet electric. thats the same damage as wanda whip while old while also needing the criteria for a wet target.
These numbers are for a base character mind you. wigfrid herself does increase these numbers to 74.37 111.56 and 183.75

With the planar lighting upgrade that would make wigfrid do 200 damage a hit. (on wet targets) Which you know what if wigfrid is able to get that I don't really mind.
its an alternative to volt jelly. which you can't use in tandem with this weapon sadly.



 

[Swiyss]

4 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

I think her lightning weapon should follow the proper electric damage scaling.  base weapon damage is 59.5 making her weapon do 89.25 due to base electric damage and then 147 with wet electric. thats the same damage as wanda whip while old while also needing the criteria for a wet target.
These numbers are for a base character mind you. wigfrid herself does increase these numbers to 74.37 111.56 and 183.75

wouldn't that be too much for a single perk on a skillset that's easily obtainable?

6 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

With the planar lighting upgrade that would make wigfrid do 200 damage a hit. (on wet targets) Which you know what if wigfrid is able to get that I don't really mind.
its an alternative to volt jelly. which you can't use in tandem with this weapon sadly.

yeah, it should, but the problem lies in perk itself I think. Being able to craft it entering the world because you unlocked it ONCE and it's super easy to unlock makes it really bad imo.

[DVGMedia]

30 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

wouldn't that be too much for a single perk on a skillset that's easily obtainable?

yeah, it should, but the problem lies in perk itself I think. Being able to craft it entering the world because you unlocked it ONCE and it's super easy to unlock makes it really bad imo.

the fact that klei made the alarming clock basically leaves any semblence of balance off the table.   Ive seen so many people get this equal in damage further ranged weapon in 3 days.   so having wigfrid be able to do the same doesn't really seem like too much of an ask.

[Swiyss]

Just now, DVGMedia said:

the fact that klei made the alarming clock basically leaves any semblence of balance off the table.   Ive seen so many people get this equal in damage further ranged weapon in 3 days.   so having wigfrid be able to do the same doesn't really seem like too much of an ask.

yeah I mean we haven't seen wanda's skill tree yet but I do agree with that!

The problem that I'm talking about is the skillset itself being a bit weird the way is implemented right now. I always felt like it's still something unfinished that once every character has it's own thing, could be looked at with a better a bigger spectrum of colors

[ECS.98]

3 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

the fact that klei made the alarming clock basically leaves any semblence of balance off the table.   Ive seen so many people get this equal in damage further ranged weapon in 3 days.   so having wigfrid be able to do the same doesn't really seem like too much of an ask.

Honestly, as a Wigfrid main, i'm hoping this doesn't happen. Yes, Wanda is broken, but i don't think every character should be balanced from the perspective of the most powerful.

Right now (as in, outside of beta) the highest damage Wigfrid can achieve is 90.3 with a Morning Star during rain (or maybe more, i haven't gotten past Celestial Champion content, and i'd rather not spoil myself), and i think that's already fine considering Dark Sword used to be the strongest weapon in the game. Some buffs are definitely welcome, but a straight 2x damage output sounds a little too much for me.

[DVGMedia]

4 minutes ago, ECS.98 said:

Honestly, as a Wigfrid main, i'm hoping this doesn't happen. Yes, Wanda is broken, but i don't think every character should be balanced from the perspective of the most powerful.

Right now (as in, outside of beta) the highest damage Wigfrid can achieve is 90.3 with a Morning Star during rain (or maybe more, i haven't gotten past Celestial Champion content, and i'd rather not spoil myself), and i think that's already fine considering Dark Sword used to be the strongest weapon in the game. Some buffs are definitely welcome, but a straight 2x damage output sounds a little too much for me.

wanda has been considered to be nerfed in alot of these recent updates now thanks to the whole planar defense stuff. So since these weapons are kind of balanced off of that the weapons are actually balanced.

Also characters can get 3x damage output thanks to warly and thats prerifts.
So this really isn't anything special lol considering it doesn't even synergize with the warly buff that much. Only able to access the .2 chilli spice buff.

[Swiyss]

Just now, DVGMedia said:

wanda has been considered to be nerfed in alot of these recent updates now thanks to the whole planar defense stuff. So since these weapons are kind of balanced off of that the weapons are actually balanced.

I like wanda, I always liked her, but she's got too many things that are already insanely good for her as a character. I'm not saying that she needs a nerf or anything, she's a glass cannon, she has to be rewarding to play, and FEEL like an overpowered character, but I think her skill tree should be the same as she is, a character that benefits the player controlling their hp. Not making an easy to acquire perks in the skillset, because THEN she would be overpowered, but now without any actual effort involved. hope Klei do a very great job on hers

[ECS.98]

8 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

Also characters can get 3x damage output thanks to warly and thats prerifts.
So this really isn't anything special lol considering it doesn't even synergize with the warly buff that much. Only able to access the .2 chilli spice buff.

The Warly Volt Goat food is exactly where this whole disaster started! Wolfgang jumping from 136 to 400+ damage should never have been a thing, and other characters following the same path even less... From there on, damage numbers have been completely out of balance, and i just hope this doesn't become the norm.

The electric damage modifier was always strong because it was supposed to only be achievable by specific weapons (that were built to not have a high damage output), but then Warly changed that completely by allowing Dark Swords to be electric. I wouldn't be opposed to electric damage being nerfed entirely honestly...

 

But well, i do have to agree with you in that the weapon already having electric damage does makes it more situational, since it would only reach its full potential during rain. So that, along with the crafting recipe not being cheap kinda does balance it out.

And honestly, it just still feels crazy to me because as someone who only plays solo or with friends, we have specifically avoided any of these OP combos. Again, the highest damage i have dealt by myself was 90.3. I like to explore the game content more than exploring different characters and their buffs, so now that these buffs sre finally getting to Wigfrid, i'm just hoping she won't be affected by inflated numbers. So 183 damage was a little scary to see lol 

[Trips]

14 minutes ago, ECS.98 said:

The Warly Volt Goat food is exactly where this whole disaster started. Woflgang jumping from 136 to 400+ damage should never have been a thing, and other characters following the same path even less... From there on, damage numbers have been completely out of balance, and i just hope this doesn't become the norm

But what i do agree is that the weapon having electric damage at least makes it more situational, since it would only reach its full potential during rain. (And the crafting recipe isn't cheap anyway, so that kinda does balance it out)

As much as some people love to harp on planar damage, I think that's mainly what they were trying to focus on with adding it. Planar Entity Protection means diminishing returns for massive damage numbers, while still enabling the option for pre-rift stuff. 

I'm also not really too sure how severe the Volt Goat Chaud Froid is either way... what's a better way of buffing a single Wolfgang? Playing with 5 other Wolfgangs!! I primarily play solo and I've stated before that the game gets a lot easier with an extra player.. especially one with a more combat-oriented kit.

They shouldn't ignore balancing for solo players, but there's also a lot of moving parts and variable that comes to balancing for the game overall.. how many players do people tend to play with at once? Do people always want to pick Warly for his buff? Are we considering public servers that reset before their first year are done, or do we consider longform worlds more? (Klei probably should've added boss scaling, but that's a topic for another day..)

[ECS.98]

7 minutes ago, Trips said:

As much as some people love to harp on planar damage, I think that's mainly what they were trying to focus on with adding it. Planar Entity Protection means diminishing returns for massive damage numbers, while still enabling the option for pre-rift stuff. 

I'm also not really too sure how severe the Volt Goat Chaud Froid is either way... what's a better way of buffing a single Wolfgang? Playing with 5 other Wolfgangs!! I primarily play solo and I've stated before that the game gets a lot easier with an extra player.. especially one with a more combat-oriented kit.

They shouldn't ignore balancing for solo players, but there's also a lot of moving parts and variable that comes to balancing for the game overall.. how many players do people tend to play with at once? Do people always want to pick Warly for his buff? Are we considering public servers that reset before their first year are done, or do we consider longform worlds more? (Klei probably should've added boss scaling, but that's a topic for another day..)

Playing with more people doesn't necessarily make the game easier, as it also requires people to be similarly skilled, and cooperate, to be able to accomplish something. More players can get in the way as much as they can help.

As far as my experiences show, everytime i played with more than 4 people it was an absolute disaster. But i've also played with 1 or 2 other friends and the game went a lot better. So in many cases i do think having one Warly buff one Wolfgang can be more impactful than having 5 other Wolfgangs.
The balancing for multiple players is definitely an issue, and the game (especially the fighting) can be massively easier with multiple players. But pretty often the players being there is its own balance, you need more items, more preparation, more equipment, more of everything. And you also need cooperation, which is the hardest part from all of this lol

But my issue isn't really with just the Volt Goat Chaud Froid, i do think the buffs from that are excessive, but they at least need some effort to get. The problem we see a lot is that one thing being made more powerful is seen as an opportunity to make other things more powerful. How many characters have we seen with crazy dps since the addition of Warly? At the end of the day, a lot of DST combat simply revolves around numbers, and when these numbers stop making as much sense, it just loses all its balance.

And then we start to think if it makes sense for these numbers to be the way they are in the first place, which is where scaling could definitely come in handy (remember, in Reign of Giants, the mob with the most hp was Bearger/Moose Goose, with 3000. Then in DST we have Misery Toadstool)

[Swiyss]

41 minutes ago, ECS.98 said:

The Warly Volt Goat food is exactly where this whole disaster started! Wolfgang jumping from 136 to 400+ damage should never have been a thing, and other characters following the same path even less... From there on, damage numbers have been completely out of balance, and i just hope this doesn't become the norm.

The electric damage modifier was always strong because it was supposed to only be achievable by specific weapons (that were built to not have a high damage output), but then Warly changed that completely by allowing Dark Swords to be electric. I wouldn't be opposed to electric damage being nerfed entirely honestly...

 

But well, i do have to agree with you in that the weapon already having electric damage does makes it more situational, since it would only reach its full potential during rain. So that, along with the crafting recipe not being cheap kinda does balance it out.

And honestly, it just still feels crazy to me because as someone who only plays solo or with friends, we have specifically avoided any of these OP combos. Again, the highest damage i have dealt by myself was 90.3. I like to explore the game content more than exploring different characters and their buffs, so now that these buffs sre finally getting to Wigfrid, i'm just hoping she won't be affected by inflated numbers. So 183 damage was a little scary to see lol 

New bosses should have health based on how many people were around the spawn area when the fight started, and if someone enters the fight midway, the boss defense matches the health that would be added otherwise. This is normal regular mmo mechanic, right now the 27k health is easily beaten by most solo players that fight them, it's not that hard, it's just a longer fight, requirind more resources and gives more room for error.

[Girl Bart]

I think tbh id rather her skill tree get reworked
to focus on inspiration aspect they introduced with her rework

- a very small but long passive inspiration gain of 1 per XX secs or minute
- inspiration lasting longer after battle or diminishing slower
- inspiration gains faster with battle spears and other wigfrid crafts

Then changing her new skills like block and dash to be tied to inspiration instead - rather than just 1 weapon (lightning spear) (shield)

- could change the dash to just deal XX bonus damage when executed - but costs inspiration for the move
- same goes for the shield / block (but if the shield is used its 100% block) but if its a weapon like 60-80% damage block - and consumes inspiration on cast

And reworking a different tree to buff her existing songs - since they are mediocre 

I see it - as the more inspired Wigfrid is, the more access she has to performance moves - the dash or block, and stronger songs

[Swiyss]

8 minutes ago, Girl Bart said:

I think tbh id rather her skill tree get reworked
to focus on inspiration aspect they introduced with her rework

- a very small but long passive inspiration gain of 1 per XX secs or minute
- inspiration lasting longer after battle or diminishing slower
- inspiration gains faster with battle spears and other wigfrid crafts

Then changing her new skills like block and dash to be tied to inspiration instead - rather than just 1 weapon (lightning spear) (shield)

- could change the dash to just deal XX bonus damage when executed - but costs inspiration for the move
- same goes for the shield / block (but if the shield is used its 100% block) but if its a weapon like 60-80% damage block - and consumes inspiration on cast

And reworking a different tree to buff her existing songs - since they are mediocre 

I see it - as the more inspired Wigfrid is, the more access she has to performance moves - the dash or block, and stronger songs

Wouldn't that make the skill tree way too impactful on her? 

Players without the skillset would essentially play a different game.

[ECS.98]

50 minutes ago, Girl Bart said:

I think tbh id rather her skill tree get reworked
to focus on inspiration aspect they introduced with her rework

- a very small but long passive inspiration gain of 1 per XX secs or minute
- inspiration lasting longer after battle or diminishing slower
- inspiration gains faster with battle spears and other wigfrid crafts

Then changing her new skills like block and dash to be tied to inspiration instead - rather than just 1 weapon (lightning spear) (shield)

- could change the dash to just deal XX bonus damage when executed - but costs inspiration for the move
- same goes for the shield / block (but if the shield is used its 100% block) but if its a weapon like 60-80% damage block - and consumes inspiration on cast

And reworking a different tree to buff her existing songs - since they are mediocre 

I see it - as the more inspired Wigfrid is, the more access she has to performance moves - the dash or block, and stronger songs

I do like the idea of Inspiration playing a bigger role in Wigfrid's character, as right now the mechanic feels underused (it isn't even used by the songs... the meter itself just serves as a threshold). However, that would also require a rework of the inspiration mechanic by itself, since right now it is only really usable when fighting bosses. We would need to have a higher inspiration gain from fighting normal mobs (even if that means a decrease on inspiration gained from bosses, which always felt too much for me anyway) and the passive inspiration drain would have to be drastically reduced or entirely removed.

On the other hand, i don't think an entire branch for buffing songs would be a good idea yet. The songs are mediocre, yes, but they should be made reliable by default, and not depend on using the skill tree as a way for them to not be terrible. That would just be a waste of skill tree space and insight points. If the songs are actually made good by themselves, then a skill tree branch further buffing them could be nice to see.

[Girl Bart]

6 hours ago, Swiyss said:

Wouldn't that make the skill tree way too impactful on her? 

Players without the skillset would essentially play a different game.

Well yeah isn’t that the point of the different characters? That they all play differently. Wig can craft - crafts that can benefit others but her as a performer would use it to its creative ‘potential’. 

I don’t mind the tree not buffing all her songs outright. But there is untapped potential to build on her existing inspiration meter mechanic. From song to ‘performance moves’ Wig can do when inspired. 
 

but atm inspiration is hard to gain outside of fights - hence the suggestions of a slow passive gain and more gain from her crafts + inspiration lasting longer perks. 

Idk just some ideas I wanted to brain dump