Who is the most well designed and balanced character, and why is it Wormwood?

[WenericMember]

1 hour ago, Antynomity said:

He's not frail because 95% damage absorption armours exist, and also by COINCIDENCE he has a natural synergy with one of them just like old Wanda, but that's for another day.

If anything that makes it MORE signficant, because he his smaller HP pool is amplified tho?

For arguments sake say a player has 90% damage reduction.

Wilson would have 1500 effective hit points.

In comparison, Maxwell would only have 750 effective hit points. That means any other player could tank, for example, 10 extra deerclops attacks without healing. If you don't think that's a relevant downside at all I don't know what to say.

 

 

[Hungry French]

53 minutes ago, arubaro said:

you can get it faster than in dst, anyways in both you can get it in 1st autumn

Why is it faster ? In any case , Night Armor is the strongest armor in the game - late game ( which does not exist )

[arubaro]

2 minutes ago, Hungry French said:

Why is it faster ?

smaller map to find what is needed plus, if you choose Maxwell, you already have some of the materials needed (and even the armor)

stronger =! lategame

[Hungry French]

1 minute ago, arubaro said:

smaller map to find what is needed plus, if you choose Maxwell, you already have some of the materials needed (and even the armor)

The map is small = few resources.
And for Maxwell, you need to go through the adventure mode. And this is only 1 character.
Ok Thulecite armor - late game in DS

Shadow armor - mid game

[arubaro]

26 minutes ago, Hungry French said:

The map is small = few resources.
And for Maxwell, you need to go through the adventure mode. And this is only 1 character.
Ok Thulecite armor - late game in DS

Shadow armor - mid game

you dont need 80 reeds to make night armor

both armors can be made 1st autumn unless the player is noob. Everything in the franchise is early game except few content gated behind quests and moon cycle, is just lack of knowledge and skill what makes them look like late but this game franchise doesn't work like other sandbox like terraria or valheim where you clearly have a forced lineal progression 

[Hungry French]

1 minute ago, arubaro said:

you dont need 80 reeds to make night armor

both armors can be made 1st autumn unless the player is noob. Everything in the franchise is early game except few content gated behind quests and moon cycle, is just lack of knowledge and skill what makes them look like late but this game franchise doesn't work like other sandbox like terraria or valheim where you clearly have a forced lineal progression 

If you are a speedrunner, the whole concept of early, medium and late game breaks down.

Shadow items are supposed to be useful when you have a stable source to restore a lot of sanity.That's why taffy was added to the original DS.

[arubaro]

4 minutes ago, Hungry French said:

If you are a speedrunner, the whole concept of early, medium and late game breaks down.

Shadow items are supposed to be useful when you have a stable source to restore a lot of sanity.That's why taffy was added to the original DS.

getting stuff done by first autumn isnt speedrunning, is just knowing how to play. Even when i started playing the game i had access to magic early on because meat effigies was the most reliable way of reviving and, as a noob, i needed that 

you restore sanity by killing shadows because in DS fights are short enough to make insanity not as impactful as it is fighting big bosses in dst

on topic, maxwell wastint sanity to perform his spells is a cool way to balance his power. I like when characters have downsides attached to their downsided like woodie's forms or warly needing to farm to get his dishes

[Hungry French]

7 minutes ago, arubaro said:

you restore sanity by killing shadows because in DS fights are short enough to make insanity not as

Bosses have high hp in DST. Because 6 people can play on the server and one of them is Warley. 

 

24 minutes ago, arubaro said:

on topic, maxwell wastint sanity to perform his spells is a cool way to balance his power. I like when characters have downsides attached to their downsided like woodie's forms or warly needing to farm to get his dishes

There are too many pluses for the characters and too few minuses. Poor balance

[arubaro]

2 minutes ago, Hungry French said:

Bosses have high hp in DST. Because 6 people can play on the server and one of them is Warley. 

any boss is balanced arround 6 players. Every boss except CK and toad is balanced arround 1 to 2 players

and i will stop arguing since your obsession with dst isnt the topic of this thread 

4 minutes ago, Hungry French said:

There are too many pluses for the characters and too few minuses. Poor balance

agree

[Hungry French]

1 minute ago, arubaro said:

any boss is balanced arround 6 players. Every boss except CK and toad is balanced arround 1 to 2 players

Seasonal bosses are balanced for 2 players.

The Guardian of Ruins is balanced for 4 players.

All other bosses are balanced for 6 players or for Warlly eat + 6 players

Hp is not balanced.

Balanced Boss for solo - Lord of the Fruit Flies

16 minutes ago, arubaro said:

any boss is balanced arround 6 players. Every boss except CK and toad is balanced arround 1 to 2 players

and i will stop arguing since your obsession with dst isnt the topic of this thread 

agree

Is it weak to write to the developers that they are fools and have terribly balanced the DS?

And don't you think that there are too few hp for multiplayer for DST bosses?

[Antynomity]

3 hours ago, WenericMember said:

If anything that makes it MORE signficant, because he his smaller HP pool is amplified tho?

For arguments sake say a player has 90% damage reduction.

Wilson would have 1500 effective hit points.

In comparison, Maxwell would only have 750 effective hit points. That means any other player could tank, for example, 10 extra deerclops attacks without healing. If you don't think that's a relevant downside at all I don't know what to say.

 

 

Wow you have to press the heal button a bit more often than a different character, what a downside!

Wilson is a bad comparison imo, he has no combat perks and if healing is an issue for maxwell you can just use your prison spell to completely invalidate the enemy youre fighting for up to 20+ seconds depending on if its a boss or not

[Gashzer]

5 hours ago, Antynomity said:

Wow you have to press the heal button a bit more often than a different character, what a downside!

Yeah any other character using night armour literally doesnt need a heal button. Most bosses will die before you die if you are wearing 95% even if you are not the best kiter. 

So other characters save alot of time not needing to grab extra healing. This upside is something you dont notice until you start playing other characters that are not maxwell but use the same shadow equipment. 

Also all that time wasted farming nightmare fuel. Other characters can neglect getting shadow manipulator and just use a hambat + marble suit with football helm and wreck bosses like dfly for gems without needing healing then rush ruins to go straight to thulecite gear. You could argue that maxwell can do the same but everyday you dont have shadow gear your duelists go to waste. Might as well just play woodie then lol

Maxwell takes quite a deceivingly long time to gear up with shadow tech. You could spend that same time bringing bunnymen to the surface for a massive dps boost against bee queen, dfly and crab king.

Maxwell feels op until you go back to playing other characters an realise maxwell loses far more time than he saves with all that messin around with his puppets. Pigs for chopping and bunnymen if you need combat support do a better job and can be used by almost all characters meaning if u switch characters the effort to bring bunnymen to surface is never wasted.

[grm9]

9 hours ago, WenericMember said:

If anything that makes it MORE signficant, because he his smaller HP pool is amplified tho?

For arguments sake say a player has 90% damage reduction.

Wilson would have 1500 effective hit points.

In comparison, Maxwell would only have 750 effective hit points. That means any other player could tank, for example, 10 extra deerclops attacks without healing. If you don't think that's a relevant downside at all I don't know what to say.

 

 

healing is nearly instant so there's no difference between wilson healing up from 75 to 150 hp before the fight and max bringing 75 hp worth of healing and starting the fight with 75 hp 

[Gashzer]

14 minutes ago, grm9 said:

healing is nearly instant so there's no difference between wilson healing up from 75 to 150 hp before the fight and max bringing 75 hp worth of healing and starting the fight with 75 hp 

Thats really dumb logic... a wilson can survive going from 150hp to 75hp without dying. Maxwell will die if assuming he took the same damage before the boss fight. Lets say we get bit by a depth worm while wearing moggles. Boom maxwell dead but wilson stays alive an well.

[grm9]

28 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Yeah any other character using night armour literally doesnt need a heal button. Most bosses will die before you die if you are wearing 95% even if you are not the best kiter. 

So other characters save alot of time not needing to grab extra healing. This upside is something you dont notice until you start playing other characters that are not maxwell but use the same shadow equipment. 

Also all that time wasted farming nightmare fuel. Other characters can neglect getting shadow manipulator and just use a hambat + marble suit with football helm and wreck bosses like dfly for gems without needing healing then rush ruins to go straight to thulecite gear. You could argue that maxwell can do the same but everyday you dont have shadow gear your duelists go to waste. Might as well just play woodie then lol

Maxwell takes quite a deceivingly long time to gear up with shadow tech. You could spend that same time bringing bunnymen to the surface for a massive dps boost against bee queen, dfly and crab king.

Maxwell feels op until you go back to playing other characters an realise maxwell loses far more time than he saves with all that messin around with his puppets. Pigs for chopping and bunnymen if you need combat support do a better job and can be used by almost all characters meaning if u switch characters the effort to bring bunnymen to surface is never wasted.

don't you feel embarrassed for not realising that through the entire playthrough, a wilson doing same things as a max only spends 75 less hp worth of healing no matter how long the playthrough is, so if you consumed over 1000 total, a wilson only benefitted by 7.5% or by nothing because shadow duelists make fights shorter so there's less time for taking damage, you don't save more time by getting 20 boards 15 cut stones 20 pig skin 5 meat food (hammering 10 pig houses and killing 5 pigs with 250 hp each) than you do by getting 1 nightmare fuel (eating one green shroom or summoning 6 clones at the same time which are 1.2 nf and a lot of chopping/mining/digging/harvesting/picking up performed by clones, killing a nightmare with 300 hp, sometimes getting 2 nf per nightmare so count that as 150 hp in that case) for 5 companions that chop/mine and, in case of spending 1 nf, pick up items, dig stumps, work at dusk and night, are available anywhere at the cost of one inventory slot, don't require any setup because you already start with the codex, work even if you aren't near and harvest plants, shadow equipment requires no additional setup because most people get dark swords, thule and dreadstone armor/hats as any other characters too, there are bosses in the game that aren't dfly or bq and most cheese ck using bees and nothing prevents you from bringing bunnymen and using them with clones because 5 clones still only cost 1 nf and contribute to dps even if you have no thule/dreadstone/shadow manip stuff 

8 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Thats really dumb logic... a wilson can survive going from 150hp to 75hp without dying. Maxwell will die if assuming he took the same damage before the boss fight. Lets say we get bit by a depth worm while wearing moggles. Boom maxwell dead but wilson stays alive an well.

wear armor if you're doing combat so you don't get oneshotted by anything, equip body armor or place a lantern and equip a helm if you think you're going to take damage soon?

[Gashzer]

27 minutes ago, grm9 said:

don't you feel embarrassed for not realising that through the entire playthrough, a wilson doing same things as a max only spends 75 less hp worth of healing no matter how long the playthrough is, so if you consumed over 1000 total, a wilson only benefitted by 7.5% or by nothing because shadow duelists make fights shorter so there's less time for taking damage, you don't save more time by getting 20 boards 15 cut stones 20 pig skin 5 meat food (hammering 10 pig houses and killing 5 pigs with 250 hp each) than you do by getting 1 nightmare fuel (eating one green shroom or summoning 6 clones at the same time which are 1.2 nf and a lot of chopping/mining/digging/harvesting/picking up performed by clones, killing a nightmare with 300 hp, sometimes getting 2 nf per nightmare so count that as 150 hp in that case) for 5 companions that chop/mine and, in case of spending 1 nf, pick up items, dig stumps, work at dusk and night, are available anywhere at the cost of one inventory slot, don't require any setup because you already start with the codex, work even if you aren't near and harvest plants, shadow equipment requires no additional setup because most people get dark swords, thule and dreadstone armor/hats as any other characters too, there are bosses in the game that aren't dfly or bq and most cheese ck using bees and nothing prevents you from bringing bunnymen and using them with clones because 5 clones still only cost 1 nf and contribute to dps even if you have no thule/dreadstone/shadow manip stuff 

I have played maxwell alot. He literally spends time (farming insane amounts of nightmare fuel plus the cast and summon time of his minions) to "save" time later.

Casting duelists and/or prison during a fight is another mechanic to juggle on top of kiting and attack. 

A larger max hp allows you take a unexpected hit like taking a hit after ur last armour breaking.

Maxwell puppets are just not worth the time an effort for experienced players that can spend an extra 2mins of kiting to kill a boss. We spend 95% of our time not fighting bosses and unless you are a megabaser you really have no need for 100s of rocks/logs/twigs/grass. Or mass farming of anything really so servants are gross overkill.

Hence why characters like walter, wx, woodie, wortox, wolfgang, wendy, wigfrid, wanda, wilson (can rush archives with gem craft which is a much better perk than maxwell puppets), willow, wormwood and winona are all just better characters unfortunately... for non-megabasers atleast.

Wurt is just a p2w upgrade to maxwell for megabasers. You can craft 30 merm huts that can demolish entire forests, rock biomes, wreck bosses and is transferable between characters so i can be a wanda with her rift network and an army of merms that do pretty much everything maxwell can do. Merms can cut down so many trees so fast that i just end up torching the stumps to save effort.

Its ok. You like maxwell i get it but hes far from being op. 

[Arcwell]

44 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Yeah any other character using night armour literally doesnt need a heal button. Most bosses will die before you die if you are wearing 95% even if you are not the best kiter. 

So other characters save alot of time not needing to grab extra healing. This upside is something you dont notice until you start playing other characters that are not maxwell but use the same shadow equipment. 

Also all that time wasted farming nightmare fuel. Other characters can neglect getting shadow manipulator and just use a hambat + marble suit with football helm and wreck bosses like dfly for gems without needing healing then rush ruins to go straight to thulecite gear. You could argue that maxwell can do the same but everyday you dont have shadow gear your duelists go to waste. Might as well just play woodie then lol

Maxwell takes quite a deceivingly long time to gear up with shadow tech. You could spend that same time bringing bunnymen to the surface for a massive dps boost against bee queen, dfly and crab king.

Maxwell feels op until you go back to playing other characters an realise maxwell loses far more time than he saves with all that messin around with his puppets. Pigs for chopping and bunnymen if you need combat support do a better job and can be used by almost all characters meaning if u switch characters the effort to bring bunnymen to surface is never wasted.

Hi, would like to clarify some points because your analysis doesn't seem to take into account Maxwell-specific strategies:

• Maxwell can defeat (almost) every boss in the game relatively quickly without healing thanks to shadow prison (The one caveat here is ancient fuelweaver, who is very difficult to defeat without healing assuming you don't cheese it)
• Shadow gear can be obtained very quickly by simply rushing ruins.
• You can obtain upwards of a stack of nightmare fuel very quickly from shadow splumonkeys while rushing the ruins by using shadow prison > shadow sneak > duelists. Doing so makes them drop 1-2 nightmare fuel per kill instead of 0-1.
• Beefalo 

If you need any more proof, I did a speedrun a while back (before mutated bosses were added) where I beat all bosses except Antlion and Bearger (and Treeguard/Spider Queen/LotFF, if you count them) as Maxwell in 44 days. Link is in the spoiler:

Spoiler

[grm9]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

I have played maxwell alot. He literally spends time (farming insane amounts of nightmare fuel plus the cast and summon time of his minions) to "save" time later.

Casting duelists and/or prison during a fight is another mechanic to juggle on top of kiting and attack. 

A larger max hp allows you take a unexpected hit like taking a hit after ur last armour breaking.

Maxwell puppets are just not worth the time an effort for experienced players that can spend an extra 2mins of kiting to kill a boss. We spend 95% of our time not fighting bosses and unless you are a megabaser you really have no need for 100s of rocks/logs/twigs/grass. Or mass farming of anything really so servants are gross overkill.

Hence why characters like walter, wx, woodie, wortox, wolfgang, wendy, wigfrid, wanda, wilson (can rush archives with gem craft which is a much better perk than maxwell puppets), willow, wormwood and winona are all just better characters unfortunately... for non-megabasers atleast.

Wurt is just a p2w upgrade to maxwell for megabasers. You can craft 30 merm huts that can demolish entire forests, rock biomes, wreck bosses and is transferable between characters so i can be a wanda with her rift network and an army of merms that do pretty much everything maxwell can do. Merms can cut down so many trees so fast that i just end up torching the stumps to save effort.

Its ok. You like maxwell i get it but hes far from being op. 

you don't waste as much time on killing a 300 hp enemy as you save by getting 10 workers/duelists/shadow prison casts and there are free occasional refills like nf from shadow pieces which all other characters need to fight too, additional mechanics in fights are good and nothing prevents you from fighting like any other x1 damage multiplier character except dreadstone stuff gets regenerated for free and you get at least some bonus from at least summoning clones before the start of the fight which doesn't require managing anything, 2 mins is arbitrary and not the case for many fights, if you don't spend your time fighting enemies nor getting resources, then what do you do? Walk, which can be sped up using beefalo like any other character? It is probably not worth continuing the discussion if you unironically think that wortox saves time after the two times i've explained to you that he wastes it and there's nothing to say if you think that having to spend 1 yellow 1 purple 1 green 1 red 1 blue 1 orange instead of 0.2 green 2 thule 1 yellow 1 living log 5 nf 30-40 rocks for walls (or around 0-12 if you use pathfinding glitches for blocking the enemies using unmovable stuff) once per the entire playthrough assuming no one did that before you if you're playing with others saves more time than actual perks, if you're saying that wurt's perks can be given to others without having to play as wurt but wurt is good and not the others that can have her perks through a hat, then that's the same thing as saying that winona and warly are good for late-game 

[Gashzer]

28 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

Hi, would like to clarify some points because your analysis doesn't seem to take into account Maxwell-specific strategies:

• Maxwell can defeat (almost) every boss in the game relatively quickly without healing thanks to shadow prison (The one caveat here is ancient fuelweaver, who is very difficult to defeat without healing assuming you don't cheese it)
• Shadow gear can be obtained very quickly by simply rushing ruins.
• You can obtain upwards of a stack of nightmare fuel very quickly from shadow splumonkeys while rushing the ruins by using shadow prison > shadow sneak > duelists. Doing so makes them drop 1-2 nightmare fuel per kill instead of 0-1.
• Beefalo 

If you need any more proof, I did a speedrun a while back (before mutated bosses were added) where I beat all bosses except Antlion and Bearger (and Treeguard/Spider Queen/LotFF, if you count them) as Maxwell in 44 days. Link is in the spoiler:

  Hide contents

Thats pretty cool ngl. But your beefalo is the mvp and is carrying hard here lol. This is more of a demo of the power of a beefalo not so much the strength of maxwell. I 100% believe a good wendy player can get the same results.

If i have the free time ill do a Walter speedrun to show you can get similar results without the need for beefalo taming. Walters bee queen kill is abit slow which is a weak point for him but walter can wreck the rest pretty good.

 

[Juanasdf]

11 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Walter is best designed and balanced character in the game. 

All his downsides are concisely countered by using his upsides.

Ok but what about his bee allergy, his campfire stories and the sanity gain near trees?

[Gashzer]

36 minutes ago, Juanasdf said:

Ok but what about his bee allergy, his campfire stories and the sanity gain near trees?

I believe the bee allergy is klei's way to weaken him against bee queen. Bee queen is already pretty easy with Walter because of the range of the slingshot it just takes him longer to kill her. If he didnt have his bee allergy then the fight would become extremely easy allowing you to make many mistakes with the slingshot. Also this downside fits the stereotype of bein the weird kid with allergies lol

Campfire stories and sanity gain from trees fit his boy scout theme. Furthermore these perks reinforce Walter's nomadic nature/playstyle in gaining more benefits from bein out in the wilderness. 

There isnt a single upside or downside that doesnt fit perfectly with Walter's theme which hints heavily at a more nomadic playstyle (ofc if you dont embrace this playstyle or fail to see the obvious hints then Walter seems like a random "perk soup"). He is a fantastically designed character.

[grm9]

9 hours ago, Hungry French said:

The Guardian of Ruins is balanced for 4 players.

if you mean that AG should have x4 as little hp when playing solo

 

 

[Gashzer]

4 minutes ago, grm9 said:

if you mean that AG should have x4 as little hp when playing solo

 

This reminds me how easy bosses in singleplayer DS are lol 

Thank god the bosses in DST are tankier.

[arubaro]

maxwell is how strong characters should be. You have a lot of power but you need practise and skill rather than holding F like you can do with other strong characters like wolfgang, wendy or wigfrid. You need to control casting timers and cc duration and manage sanity on top of what playing other characters require plus has low hp which, sure isnt the most impactful downside but can put you in a tricky situation with weather or if you get stunlock or whatever

the prison is imb4 and more for multiplayer, idk what was thinking klei when they added such, literally with some bosses, game breaker spell but atleast is costly in terms of NF and sanity (pre FW) if you want to spam it on bosses

is a character that pays off knowing how to play which is satisfying 

[Hungry French]

14 minutes ago, grm9 said:

if you mean that AG should have x4 as little hp when playing solo

 

1. Ancient Guardian rework it's cringe (6 seconds the boss is afk).
Old Ancient Guardian 2500 for solo. Rework Ancient Guardian 5000 for solo.

2.Wolfgang x2 damage. The overall balance of solo creatures was built for all characters without x2 damage.

5 minutes ago, arubaro said:

the prison is imb4 and more for multiplayer, idk what was thinking klei when they added such, literally with some bosses, game breaker spell but atleast is costly in terms of NF and sanity (pre FW) if you want to spam it on bosses

What do Klei think about making DST easier every year ?