My Major Problem With Griftlands


Recommended Posts

I would like to start this off by saying that I absolutely adore Klei Entertainment, their games, and their attitude as a company. I have been a fan for more years than I can count and will continue to be one as long as I am playing games. Their credibility as a developer is insurmountable, making every release of theirs a must-buy in my eyes. Griftlands is no exception, I am eagerly looking forward to what is next for this game. I have had plenty of fun with it so far, yet I have one major criticism that encapsulates the vast majority of what I find is hindering its quality.

Which is what brings me to my actual point;

 

Griftlands has a problem with linearity. My 1st, 2nd, and 3rd playthrough of the early Alpha of Griftlands were quite enjoyable, yet the ones that followed were met with boredom. The negotiation and combat are not the problems (I adore these aspects of Griftlands), as they are non-linear, entertaining, and have plenty of updates and bolstering of content to come. The problem stems from the quests and the structure of the encounters that the player will come across during their playthrough of Griftlands. The only form of movement around the (visually stunning) map of Murder Bay is through specific story-driven prompts that do not change from playthrough to playthrough. The random encounters and orange non-story blips on the map are refreshing, but the majority of the players' time will be spent in the same encounters that they will have experienced from their last playthrough. The dialogue and options for the players' approach are the same every time, and there is not all that much variety to the different options that are available when outside of combat and negotiation. All of this means that after a few playthroughs, the player will become tired and worn out from experiencing the same things over and over again.

This would not be problematic if the game weren't a rogue-like. The repeated playthroughs that naturally accompanies the rogue-like genre dictates that content should be either plentiful enough to keep the player from seeing the same quests and prompt for at least the first few hours of play or randomly generated enough to avoid repetition. This problem would not be half as significant if the player had the ability to move freely around the map or if some elements of the quests were randomly generated. I understand that the NPC participants in the quests are randomly selected from a pool of NPCs, but this is not the problem. The actual content of the quests feels repetitive.

I would like to say again that the game itself is wonderful. The art design and style, the quests, the characters, everything is good now and on the track to be amazing upon the full release. The above rant is simply my major problem with Griftlands and I could very easily fill five times as much text with what I love about the game. Please keep up the wonderful work you are doing, Klei, and if you want, take this into consideration. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a very fair assessment and “linearity” is a very good way of articulating something that could become problematic for Griftlands in the long run.  That said, Klei has a great track record and the game is in early alpha access so I’m not as concerned right now as you might be, but I thought I’d share my own insights and my hopes/feedback here since you put it more eloquently than I ever could.

I feel that it is apparent that Griftlands is a game that has been in development for a couple of years.  I added it to my Steam wishlist back on like June 12th, 2017 and Havaria/Murder Bay is a world that seems very well thought out, with a rich and diverse cast of characters, a complex hierarchy of power, and a great deal of political intrigue and drama. 

I really want to just tinker around in this world.  I want to explore it.  I want to meet all of its inhabitants.  I want to get to know all of them and work with and against them for various purposes, whether they be noble or nefarious.  In its current form, Sal’s story is, as you put it, very linear, and I’ve been thinking of ways to change that.     

***SPOILERS***
1) I provided feedback in game that I looked forward to being able to join up with the Hesh or the Jakes as Sal.  However, I feel like there’s a strong chance that Sal’s story is mostly finished and the choices we currently have are the ones that we will ultimately get in the final product, just more fleshed out, with some divergence, greater variance, and some of the ideas that alpha users requested – the devs can correct me if I’m wrong.  I suspect that other factions will be featured more prominently in the stories for later characters and if that’s the case then I think I’d be a bit disappointed. 

Why couldn’t we have a choice between one of the four current factions or even more if they’re implemented?  Why do I have to choose?  Why couldn’t I join all of the factions?  Why couldn’t I play one faction against another to get what I want?  Why do I have to join a faction?  Could there be another means to getting to Kashio that doesn’t involve siding with one of the factions? 

There’s a lot to ponder there and part of the reason these things can probably be written off immediately is because, in its current form, each day is finite, with a fixed number of events prior to a fixed boss fight that concludes the day.  What if  we could explore the map as much as we like until night draws and the day’s fatigue begins to set in?  What if, as in FTL, we can explore as much as we want to, but an overwhelming force is moving in on us and we have to progress before it catches us; perhaps, like in Dying Light, when night encroaches in Murder Bay, the truly rough rogues and dangerous creatures begin to appear, making survival in those situations difficult and thereby greatly weakening us for the big boss of the day?      

2) There are only two static locations on the map:  The Grog n’ Dog and The Meat Market.  I think there should be many more, including a primary headquarters for each Faction, smaller camps that pop up as alliances form in each run, multiple stores that sell different wares, and feel free to add more because I’m spitballing here.  I also want to see the many faces of Murder Bay randomly appear in these locations and I want to be able to meaningfully interact with them through combat, dialogue, trade, or other means depending on various factors.  I feel like I'm probably asking for quite a lot here, though I hope some of these things aren't tall requests.  

We encounter many of these places through questing, but they are otherwise off-limits to us once a quest is complete.  Being able to more freely explore the world would lead to greater variance in each play through.  At minimum we should probably have more quests per day, more choices in total available quests and special events, and more random encounters; especially if exploration will remain relatively static or linear with only a few locations that can be freely visited and explored.

3) If I’m told that my friend is in trouble and I have to go save them or they’re going to literally die, I’m going to go and do that special event.  To me, that’s not really a choice.  Sure, I’d like to train my vroc, or talk to another friend to bolster resolve, or upgrade a card, or perhaps even meditate – though I pick meditation and healing springs the least, even when I need those things – but I can’t do them because Teema is going to die and I happen to like Teema a great deal. 

I’d like more special event choices, both in frequency and in total number at one time, but if I’m forced to choose to save Teema OR save Ash, I’m going to be very sad.  I mean, I’m definitely picking Teema.  But I’m still going to be sad that Ash dies.  Then again, that’s actually a meaningful (though somewhat arbitrary) choice, and if Ash’s friend Bax now dislikes me because he heard how I saved Teema and let Ash die, events like that could make each run feel dynamically unique.

Saving someone currently involves negotiating or fighting another humanoid character.  Couldn’t I save friends from creatures too? We have such encounters with fleads and random neutral parties (I think they’re called rift wardens but I’m drawing a blank).  Also, if I literally saved someone’s life, shouldn’t they kind of owe me one?  Shouldn’t I absolutely see a random event where they meet me and say they’re going to tag along for, at least, my next fight?  Couldn't they pop up in a negotiation or a fight and say, "Looks like you could use a hand, friend!"  Couldn’t some of the people I save be weak or shady and couldn’t they ask me to do something else for them and at that point become something of a liability?  A lot of really interesting options here for captivating and unique storylines, even with randomly generated, initially neutral characters drawn from a pool.

4) I’ve run into Krog many times.  He offers me a coin flip.  The first five times I bet 50 shill and picked heads.  I lost every time.  On the sixth time, I had the feeling that a lot of the game had finite, pre-determined outcomes, so I bet 50 shill, picked tails, and I still lost.  Then I picked 150 shill, picked heads, and lost.
 
Now maybe Krog is a cheat.  I always challenge him afterwards and beat him in negotiation (which, in and of itself is a very clever and flavorful addition and of the sort that I'd like to see more).  But what if he wasn’t?  What if there were some item, or card, or sequence I could pick that helped me win the coin toss, or a way to pressure Krog into simply saying that I won because he feared for his well-being if he insinuated that I did not?

I’ve run into Rug a bunch of times.  He offers me three different types of food out of a pool of four (or maybe five).  The gristled grittle will always restore my resolve.  The brownies will always provide me with a 0 cost card that replenishes health.  Everything else has a negative side effect.  One, I think the tartare, shuffles a “Sick” card into my negotiation deck.  I then have a choice to tell him it’s okay or to scold him.  Telling him it’s okay leads to an event later that day where he gives me a snack that replenishes health. 

What if Rug cooks some things better on some days and other things worse on others?  What if there was an element of RNG to my selection?  It would certainly spice up each run - pun intended.  Though I can’t help but feel that some people might complain about that kind of RNG.  I just feel like adding variance to these types of outcomes would make each run feel dynamic and would require a bit of foresight and meaningful choice on the part of the player.

Even giant spiders in FTL can become boring once you’ve seen it 100 times.  At some point you don’t even need to read the dialogue; you already know what the best option is and so you select it because you don’t want to intentionally tank your own run.  I happen to think accidentally tanking runs is just fine though.  There’s always the choice of not accepting food from Rug or a coin flip from Krog.  Maybe they’ll dislike me as a result and maybe I’ll need to have a drink with them at a bar at some point in the day to make it better?  But that would lend itself to making each play through feel special.

5) I’m really hopeful that as the game progresses our opportunities to recruit allies both temporarily and permanently will increase.  I’m hopeful that our ability to build rapport with our allies and with our pets will increase and I’m hopeful that the ability to level these companions up in some capacity will come into play.  I’m not convinced this is the direction we’re headed, however.  I get the sense that Griftlands is very much a story-driven single character campaign and that whatever limited help we may receive from the inhabitants of Murder Bay will be finite and, generally, fleeting.  Allies do seem to decrease the overall game difficulty and can make even the jankiest of decks viable.  I’m hoping some balance can be found because I very much want to be able to align with everyone and everything at some point or another after hundreds of runs.

If that isn’t possible, I’d really like a Random Select mode in which we can roll any humanoid character in Murder Bay and play through a generic story with a generic faction/race based starting deck.  This would, at least, approximate my ambition of fully exploring the world of Havaria.
***END SPOILERS***

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.  Sorry if it’s your job and you have to read it because I clearly got a bit carried away.  Ultimately, I’m just very excited about the game and where it can go; the possibilities seem truly infinite: so in that sense, great work so far and I look forward to seeing how development unfolds!  Cheers!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree that "linearity" is going to be a huge problem with Griftlands as it is with all roguelikes due to the nature of playing them multiple times in multiple different runs. You can actually experience how linear the game is after the first 20 minutes or so depending on when you end your first run and start again and see that many of the options available to you, be it either quests or dialogue options are identical to the last time you encountered that event. You get to the point where like in FTL you just know the best outcome or your preferred best outcome to every scenario so you don't even bother reading the dialogue because you already know it or it's not as important than the reward for choosing your preferred option. My point is that if the game remains very linear then it won't make for very memorable gameplay other than the first time you play through the story of each character. At which point it becomes just another roguelike where you just make blind meaningless choices based on the best available option. 

Why I'm not entirely worried is because I have a lot of faith in Klei. More so than I should be based on the current consumer attitude toward alpha or early access games, but that's irrelevant considering Klei's track record and the fact that they make amazing games. So Klei if you happen to be reading this I hope you're really taking that "Everything is negotiable to heart" because that is where this game stands out in my mind. I like the idea of having a say in the outcome of an event be it unforeseen outcome or a set outcome. I want to be able to align myself like PespiPlunge said to every faction and every character and for those alignments to make significant impacts on my runs. I want my decisions in the game to not always have a determined outcome that I can predict every time. Because if my choice is to chat with Ash or save Teema I'm going to save Teema because regardless if it's talking to Ash, meditating, training my pet, etc, in my opinion saving Teema is always the better outcome. But maybe if I saved that Rift Warden from the fleas early on then she would somehow affect my story and "pay me back" so to speak and save Teema if I chose instead to talk to Ash. Maybe by pure chance that Rift Warden was friends with the person who wanted to kill Teema and when I go to save Teema that Riftwarden showed up and talked her out of it. Or if for another example if I happen to already be friends with the guard of Fhssk (names are hard) shop I shouldn't have to convince my friend to help me out. I know it makes it easier to convince them but what kind of friend just stands by and says that's not part of my contract while their friend gets murdered.

What I'm trying to say in too many words is that ideally to stop the game from becoming repetitive and predictable is added a little RNG so that your allegiances and previous choices open avenues for you to solve the puzzle or quest in new, interesting, and unseen ways. I want to be on my 101st run and still get surprised by the outcome of an event because of my past decisions even if it's in a minor way. And I hope it's not just me. I hope that one of the developers at Klei could be playing and be surprised that on their 101st run the assassin on day 2 was Teema all along behind the mask and that would make that run truly memorable because it would open a whole new unexpected dialog option since you saved her earlier and since you've never seen that option you wouldn't just click through it because you already knew the best option. I hope you catch my grift. As it is always easier said than done. Either way, I'm really pleased with the game so far and I'm looking forward to how it progresses and changes. Keep up the good work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Please be aware that the content of this thread may be outdated and no longer applicable.