The Problem with Lunar abby And Shadow abby Accessablity

[DVGMedia]

5 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

Abigail is not a character, it really is as simple as that. She should not be treated on the same level as characters and she shouldn't be getting permanent benefits that actual characters benefit from. She may have a damage penalty (one that is literally just a damage buff if you do the bare minimum of keeping Abi alive), but Abigail cannot become as strong as Wendy, they are by design meant to be dependent on each other and having Abigail become stronger and stronger goes against that due to her being a follower to begin with.

abby is basically the same as a tool for wendy. she is the same as walters slighshot or Wigfrids spears. I would expect there to be progression for her similar as these tools get upgrades.

8 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

Then don't use shadow Abigail? I don't understand why you would be having to use live animals to activate her in situations where she isn't necessary and then be frustrated that you feel like you have to do it.

I mean i don't early on because she doesn't provide anything early.
But i would really want to be able to Which is why im making this suggestion so that way she is more useful.

9 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

Abigail should not be becoming super boosted frequently.

Why not if its basically pointless?

You have not proven to me why it would be a problem to not push for these types of changes other than its fine to you  right now. Or to not use them.
I already don't use them because I don't feel they are worth it.
I am making suggestings because i want to be able to use them.

[YouKnowWho142]

6 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

abby is basically the same as a tool for wendy. she is the same as walters slighshot or Wigfrids spears. I would expect there to be progression for her similar as these tools get upgrades.

No. The slingshot and spear are actual weapons and are used by themselves, and if they are used then you can't use any other weapon at the same time. Abigail supplements Wendy and fights alongside her, she is not Wendy's weapon since Wendy can use whatever she wants, and it becomes even more impactful post rift when planar damage basically ignores Wendy's damage penalty.

6 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

I mean i don't early on because she doesn't provide anything early.
But i would really want to be able to Which is why im making this suggestion so that way she is more useful.

Why not if its basically pointless?

You have not proven to me why it would be a problem to not push for these types of changes other than its fine to you  right now. Or to not use them.
I already don't use them because I don't feel they are worth it.
I am making suggestings because i want to be able to use them.

Again, they're not worth it for the way YOU play the game. In their intended use case the way they work is balanced and fair. If you just want to kill random spiders and bees and monkeys, then that has always been what Abigail is good at, and she does not need the boost whatsoever. Most of the skill tree is to give her a good fighting chance against boss mobs and basically all of her skills accomplish this quite well without making her independent. If she got those same boosts outside of these controlled situations consistently and at all times Wendy in turn would lose her identity as Abigail would be able to more consistently solo more and more threats when that isn't the intended vision of sisters fighting in tandem. What you want is a superpowered Abigail that is always available, the reason I oppose it is because that isn't what Wendy as a character is.

[DVGMedia]

5 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

No. The slingshot and spear are actual weapons and are used by themselves, and if they are used then you can't use any other weapon at the same time. Abigail supplements Wendy and fights alongside her, she is not Wendy's weapon since Wendy can use whatever she wants, and it becomes even more impactful post rift when planar damage basically ignores Wendy's damage penalty.

thats just a matter of perspective then. Those are tools the character starts with the same as abby is to wendy..

 

6 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

What you want is a superpowered Abigail that is always available, the reason I oppose it is because that isn't what Wendy as a character is.

Then what is she? I would want to be able to use her powers just like any other player? I still don't see any problem with what im suggesting They are still limited btw  still need to do the grind. But it just makes it more available than it already is?
Is that really a problem?

[Echsrick]

as if the ghost was not allready powerfull enought, just changin super powers on the go without a cost would be silly, because if it was free then you might aswell just increase damage, wich if i remember correctly, you dit not like just simple number increase back in beta with pipspook and mourning glories gain and potion craft number increase

1 minute ago, DVGMedia said:

Then what is she? I would want to be able to use her powers just like any other player?

wilson needs to wait for his bead
willows bernie is only possible on low sanity and only realy goin to attack insanity monsters
wolfgang needs to constandly stand still and lift weigth or his gym station
wendy needs time to get the potion stuff to support abbigal
wx needs to go on a whole quest, lookin at things with his little robot to even get perks
wickerbotom reeds resource sink and book station waiting a while for repairs
woodie is pretty much just wilson with an axe and has to completly change for a temporary power up form
wes ...
maxwell needs to consume nightmare fuel to do his magic, wich a bit more difficult to get because of his passive sanity gain
wigfrid elden spear has to do quest for the moon
webber i feel like has an itendity crisis because all he can do is spiders wich is outclassed by a certain someones ghost
warly farming takes a while and his spices, often when i play him the others may allready killed dragonfly or other bosses so his spice i could not even do even if i had them
wormwood...i dont know i dont realy play him all i know is is he farming but something body armor stuff and time
winona is just wilson, with faster crafting and hunger drain with said crafting, untill she got lots of rocks to invest into generators and catapults and spotlights
wortox is wilson but souls, without souls your just furry wilson, knapsack is TERRIPLE bytheway and bottle rng exist, alsol panflute, if in a puplic server you may not get it and all the mandrakes somehow are gone too you just have lost skill points, not that you had much to use them for anyways
wurt plays an entire differend game, go kill all the pigs, go boating course, and then after all the building work, you got the king wich extra steps to increase wich will take a while for certain things
walters powers are the consume of monster meat of woby and slingshot wich he needs alot of ammo for so better grind up
wanda you got to litteraly race your death timer and maybe some more of those ageless watches grind ups, alsol in a way needing to be low on "health" for the real power

thats them powers, many of wich you just cant have at all times because game balance and design, so why sould wendy get everything handed to her?

[YouKnowWho142]

36 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

thats just a matter of perspective then. Those are tools the character starts with the same as abby is to wendy..

Again, those tools replace traditional weapons while Abigail supplements them. Those tools need to be stronger over time because you need to justify using them over weapons that are not character exclusive, which is a dilemma that never happens with Abigail. Abigail is a follower that deals damage alongside a character with a 16% damage bonus. Walter doesn't get to use a shadow reaper and a slingshot at the exact same time while Abigail and Wendy does.

36 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

Then what is she? I would want to be able to use her powers just like any other player? I still don't see any problem with what im suggesting They are still limited btw  still need to do the grind. But it just makes it more available than it already is?
Is that really a problem?

I'm not going to keep explaining this to you because you aren't willing to understand, I made myself clear and refuse to spend any more time on this topic.

[DVGMedia]

8 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

I'm not going to keep explaining this to you because you aren't willing to understand, I made myself clear and refuse to spend any more time on this topic.

I just know you think its fine. and doesn't need to change.
I believe that it does and it would make things better.

44 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

thats them powers, many of wich you just cant have at all times because game balance and design, so why sould wendy get everything handed to her?

Well because every character has ways to mitigate access to their powers? especially with the skill trees.
Every character that has gotten a skill tree has gotten easier access to enable their powers.
Yet wendy was given some leeway on her base potion grind.  yet given new ones with her affinities.
and thats the problem

 

[YouKnowWho142]

14 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

I just know you think its fine. and doesn't need to change.
I believe that it does and it would make things better.

not even that is correct I'm afraid. Gestalt Abigail should not be changed at all, upgrading her flower makes no sense and interacting with the moondial has zero tedium involved so it's weird that you even bring it up when you still suggest that the moondial is needed for the ritual anyways, they should absolutely not be able to freely switch period and a simple single interaction once, maybe twice a season will not hurt you especially since it's not something youre forced to do every time either.

And believe it or not I don't like the way Shadow Abigail works either, my issue is that I don't like your solution for it in the slightest since all it encourages is a superpowered Abigail that erodes the identity of Wendy (something I have repeatedly mentioned but you ignored). A far more elegant and interesting solution, which I have mentioned several times, would be more meaningful animal sacrifices. Spiders, rabbits, birds, and moleworms can give greatly increased shadow duration time compared to simple insects, perhaps somewhere around 30-45 seconds. This would remove the "tedium" while also letting Wendy sacrifice something more interesting than just a stack of butterflies or bees, but Abigail absolutely shouldn't be able to store this power especially when you are already able to store elixirs.

[DVGMedia]

11 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

 is needed for the ritual anyways, they should absolutely not be able to freely switch period and a simple single interaction once, maybe twice a season will not hurt you especially since it's not something youre forced to do every time either.

And believe it or not I don't like the way Shadow Abigail works either, my issue is that I don't like your solution for it in the slightest since all it encourages is a superpowered Abigail that erodes the identity of Wendy (something I have repeatedly mentioned but you ignored). A far more elegant and interesting solution, which I have mentioned several times, would be more meaningful animal sacrifices. Spiders, rabbits, birds, and moleworms can give greatly increased shadow duration time compared to simple insects, perhaps somewhere around 30-45 seconds. This would remove the "tedium" while also letting Wendy sacrifice something more interesting than just a stack of butterflies or bees, but Abigail absolutely shouldn't be able to store this power especially when you are already able to store elixirs.

It would be more themeatic if could do it with the moonbase instead of the moon dial. Like imagine needing to do the moon event without abby.  to be able to upgrade her to have access to this new form. Wouldn't that be more interesting? Thing is though a more intense ritual like that would have to follow my method of transforming abby after the ritual has finished instead of what currently exists.

I like to say that most of the time everyone agrees on the basic principle of things. However its the method of forming a solution that we all get stuck on.

The discussion is to make for solutions to try and pitch to klei. Instead of just us arguing back and forth of what that solution would  be since we will always argue in that sense.

the method you say would be nice and it should totally be added since the player is dedicating a whole inventory slot to 1 animal. but it still really doesn't change anything.

 

[YouKnowWho142]

10 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

the method you say would be nice and it should totally be added since the player is dedicating a whole inventory slot to 1 animal. but it still really doesn't change anything.

 

Wouldn't it fix what you talked about? You wanted to be able to use her shadow power more while resource farming, so all you'd have to do is use a single trap to capture a spider, kill it, then get increased time to use it against the rest of the spiders. This is entirely unnecessary, but if you wanted to kill basic 100 hp spiders in one less hit (even though they get stunlocked and do nothing regardless) then you have your solution. one spider is much better than several butterflies and doesn't step on Wendy's identity at all, having a single animal in your inventory regardless is no different from having an elixir, only that you can't hold onto it forever which is entirely fair for what it offers.

[DVGMedia]

26 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

Wouldn't it fix what you talked about? You wanted to be able to use her shadow power more while resource farming, so all you'd have to do is use a single trap to capture a spider, kill it, then get increased time to use it against the rest of the spiders. This is entirely unnecessary, but if you wanted to kill basic 100 hp spiders in one less hit (even though they get stunlocked and do nothing regardless) then you have your solution. one spider is much better than several butterflies and doesn't step on Wendy's identity at all, having a single animal in your inventory regardless is no different from having an elixir, only that you can't hold onto it forever which is entirely fair for what it offers.

not really because its only replacing one thing with another thing that does exactly the same thing It does it slightly better in that it does more time.  however it does not fix the inventory problem at all of needing to maintain a live creature.
one of the ways wendy players circumvented having to use a sacrifice for abby back then was having a lureplant.  lureplants could be planted and killed to summon abby it was something that never rotted or died so it was welcome in the inventory.

that was usually if wendy didn't have something easy to kill when abby died as she could just drop abbys flower and kill a spider to summon her again.
Its why this hommage to the scacrifce mecahnic really sucks lol because it doesn't really follow what the sacrifice mechanic was.

If they really wanted to follow it dropping abbys flower would allow her to gain sacrifices in a radius around her leading to a build up of abbys power. doing so would mean you had no control over abby.
The main problem then with this would be how to make it so that the player cant just cheese collection by making multiple abby flowers. maybe make it so abby flowers have an owner and all flowers to the same owner are linked?

that would be a perfect hommage to the original mechanic instead of it being this hap hazard murder mechanic

[Echsrick]

36 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

however it does not fix the inventory problem at all of needing to maintain a live creature.

thats still a houndreds times better then what ever the deal with the knapsack is....1 inventory slot for a stack of bees

[Crimson Hollow]

38 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

lureplants could be planted and killed to summon abby it was something that never rotted or died so it was welcome in the inventory.

having to beat it like 6 times each time you use shadow abby is easier than killing a spider? I won't say so...

Also does lureplant drop souls for wortox? it would be a bit weird to use here if it doesn't...

[Echsrick]

50 minutes ago, Crimson Hollow said:

Also does lureplant drop souls for wortox? it would be a bit weird to use here if it doesn't...

there are no souls in a lure plant

[DVGMedia]

1 hour ago, Crimson Hollow said:

having to beat it like 6 times each time you use shadow abby is easier than killing a spider? I won't say so...

Also does lureplant drop souls for wortox? it would be a bit weird to use here if it doesn't...

im just saying what old abby summoning rituals were.  prerework and people held onto them because never needed to manage a starving bee or butterfly if you coudln't kill something to summon abby.
The summon abby sacrifice used to just be anything that died around abbys flower on the floor. so even souless things now would have worked.

[Crimson Hollow]

1 hour ago, DVGMedia said:

im just saying what old abby summoning rituals were.  prerework and people held onto them because never needed to manage a starving bee or butterfly if you coudln't kill something to summon abby.
The summon abby sacrifice used to just be anything that died around abbys flower on the floor. so even souless things now would have worked.

The only possible issue i see here is probably difficulty gathering butterflies and bees during winter... and i feel like this solution can already help with it

4 hours ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

more meaningful animal sacrifices. Spiders, rabbits, birds, and moleworms can give greatly increased shadow duration time compared to simple insects, perhaps somewhere around 30-45 seconds.

 

[DVGMedia]

11 minutes ago, Crimson Hollow said:

The only possible issue i see here is probably difficulty gathering butterflies and bees during winter... and i feel like this solution can already help with it

 

it would  be helpful I just want it to be more useful in the day to day like Where activating it and getting kills with abby causes it to extend by like 2 seconds for every kill near abby

.

[Trips]

16 hours ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

Abigail is not a character, it really is as simple as that. She should not be treated on the same level as characters and she shouldn't be getting permanent benefits that actual characters benefit from. She may have a damage penalty (one that is literally just a damage buff if you do the bare minimum of keeping Abi alive), but Abigail cannot become as strong as Wendy, they are by design meant to be dependent on each other and having Abigail become stronger and stronger goes against that due to her being a follower to begin with.

 

Abigail is Wendy's strength. Without Abigail, she's Wilson with no beard, 0.75 damage and reduced sanity loss. Wicker's books aren't a character, but define her playstyle. Woby and Walter's slingshot aren't characters, but they are very core to their playstyle. I guess you can just play Woodie in fights without Weremoose, but why not just play any other 1x damage character at that point? 

 

16 hours ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

 

Wendy does not need more commands period.

 

Or they could add a more intuitive/user-friendly way of accessing said commands. The commands are great, the interface not as much. 

[YouKnowWho142]

17 minutes ago, Trips said:

Abigail is Wendy's strength. Without Abigail, she's Wilson with no beard, 0.75 damage and reduced sanity loss. Wicker's books aren't a character, but define her playstyle. Woby and Walter's slingshot aren't characters, but they are very core to their playstyle. I guess you can just play Woodie in fights without Weremoose, but why not just play any other 1x damage character at that point?

I already explained the issue with this mindset. Abigail's existence in a fight alone already removes the damage penalty and instead makes it a 16% damage bonus, so that isn't the issue. Walter's Slingshot is the only source of dps at a given moment if he uses it meaning there needs to be a justifiable reason to use it over other weapons hence why they got so many rounds and upgrades. Wendy has her own progression outside of Abigail and isn't restricted on weapons, meaning she can use dark swords doing up to 75+ damage while Abigail is also attacking the same target, and since Abigail is always available there's never the dilemma where she needs to justify herself that other characters' items have to deal with. Abigail does not and should not ever be on the same level as Wendy, and Wendy should be able to rely on Abigail. I don't see how the skill tree doesn't accomplish this. 

I've always had a lot of my own problems with Woodie, he has zero progression in his skills and is the same strength from start to finish, but even then he's a character, not a follower, and shouldn't be treated the same

[DVGMedia]

6 hours ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

I've always had a lot of my own problems with Woodie, he has zero progression in his skills and is the same strength from start to finish, but even then he's a character, not a follower, and shouldn't be treated the same

i think its just more of a different strokes type of thing.  Woodies always been a jack. he had good early game strengths but gets outshadowed later.

[YouKnowWho142]

15 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

i think its just more of a different strokes type of thing.  Woodies always been a jack. he had good early game strengths but gets outshadowed later.

I know, it’s why I don’t really argue against him. It just makes it hard to enjoy a lot of newer content with him since he’s encouraged so heavily to use the moose, and you don’t really feel encouraged to try out the other wereform masteries

He’s a fine character, he just isn’t for me

[hyoton123]

On 3/26/2025 at 6:23 PM, DVGMedia said:

It would be more themeatic if could do it with the moonbase instead of the moon dial. Like imagine needing to do the moon event without abby.  to be able to upgrade her to have access to this new form. Wouldn't that be more interesting? 

I want to step in here and say: no, no, no. It is a slightly cute idea exactly once in your dst lifetime and would be a boring drag to do every time after that, and would be completely uninteractive if it was account specific.

 

The moon dial limitation gives some use to an otherwise somewhat mediocre structure; forces wendy out of the caves where hotswapping abby actually is pretty ridiculous; and cuts down on how crowded the flower menu currently is (and no, just mod it isnt an answer). And I do view the moon phase cooldown as a good thing - it’s reversible for gameplay reasons, but it isn’t trivial. It is an investment.

[DVGMedia]

1 hour ago, hyoton123 said:

I want to step in here and say: no, no, no. It is a slightly cute idea exactly once in your dst lifetime and would be a boring drag to do every time after that, and would be completely uninteractive if it was account specific.

It would be world specific.  Just like how Walter needs to kill beequeen to get jelly 

Something to do once in a world and in that world you gain this ability  it's a more intense ritual for more freedom of having it with you consistently. I think that's fair 

[Gashzer]

16 hours ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

I know, it’s why I don’t really argue against him. It just makes it hard to enjoy a lot of newer content with him since he’s encouraged so heavily to use the moose, and you don’t really feel encouraged to try out the other wereform masteries

He’s a fine character, he just isn’t for me

Moose mastery is seriously overrated. A small buff to dps isn't this amazing thing everyone makes it out to be. And you only get this damage boost if you aren't moving/kiting around too much as you are attacking. The other 3 moose skills are far better.

Goose mastery is incredible during the early game, with 5 teleports per idol you tend to find the lunar island within 2 idol uses and it's super quick, same for finding ruins. This is more gamechanging than a small damage boost, only downside to Goose mastery is the 2 filler skills you need to unlock it and it does lose some of its usefulness after you have explored everywhere (it's still good for getting you off lunar island/out of ruins and lands you closer to where you need to be)

Even beaver mastery is better than moose mastery, allows you to quickly chop/mine and it using up weremeter quickly is a good thing. I always find myself with way extra weremeter as beaver so instead of awkwardly standing still for 6secs you might as well be productive with the tail slap.

[DVGMedia]

On 3/28/2025 at 11:11 AM, Gashzer said:

Moose mastery is seriously overrated. A small buff to dps isn't this amazing thing everyone makes it out to be. And you only get this damage boost if you aren't moving/kiting around too much as you are attacking. The other 3 moose skills are far better.

 

i can agree  having just the sustain is great. I kind of found that unless you really want to focus moose. you really kind of shouldn't.

I still am really confused about gestalt abby though.  Because like she would do worse on the later game bosses  because most of her damage is regular. so she gets pretty weakened by planar protection. And it only gets made up thanks to the potion. which does not last very long either. 
I just don't know what its supposed to be since like it sounds like she fits best on early game bosses but like you need to beat a late game boss to access her.

I feel like we need a way to make this less tedius for players that play for longer durations. 
Moonstorms screw over lunar abby because you no longer have the freedom of swapping Between gestalt and normal abby.
Which is why there is a need to get rid of this requirement after the first inital ritual.

[Hollow soul 3]

Woddie's Soo front heavy. Really wish he had a buff for wearing lunar or void armor. Something to interact with the new content