Skill tree critiques as a whole.

[Anis5240]

You know, with 11 characters already having skill trees, you'd think they all have the same 25 (or 26 including lunar affinity) skills total, right?

Well that's where it's wrong.

I've checked for those 11 characters and surprise, surprise, not all of them have 25/26 skills total. Some have even lesser than that. Let's go through all of them, shall we?

*Wilson - 25 (26 including lunar affinity)

*Willow - 22 (24 including lunar affinity)

*Wolfgang - 22 (25 including lunar affinity)

*Wendy - 22 (25 including lunar affinity)

*Woodie - 26 (27 including lunar affinity)

*Wigfrid - 22 (23 including lunar affinity)

*Winona - 21 (26 including lunar affinity)

*Wortox - 26 (27 including lunar affinity)

*Wormwood - 26

*Wurt - 26 (28 including lunar affinity)

*Walter - 25 (26 including lunar affinity)

Do you see the stark difference between some characters' total of skills?

Not to mention some characters have the "Learn 12 skills" to unlock the affinity side. This happens for 5 characters: Wilson, Wolfgang, Woodie, Wigfrid and Wurt. Why is that, I wonder?

Yet another complain is that why the affinity locks were not combined for all characters. Instead, only 2 characters where this happened: Willow and Walter.

This whole thing just show how much Klei is willing to drag out those filler perks and in return, makes the skill trees very flawed, especially to those that don't deserve to be subjected of said flaws; mainly Wigfrid.

15 points to spend is rather alright, but when the choices themselves are limited, what use are said points to make players choosing actually different builds, despite using the same character?

[Evelo]

Not to mention you can swap any time using the Celestial Portal. Why even have skill trees? Then you get into the balance of them and see how crazy powerful they are, some acting as re-refreshes, while others are more tame. Real shame. Either way we are stuck with them.

(also Winona can pick every skill besides 1 so she technically is at 25 possible choices outside of affinity lock)

[Anis5240]

1 hour ago, Evelo said:

others are more tame

I think it's an absolute shame to see the majority of Wolfgang's (other have this too but his was on such extreme levels) skill tree was just stat boosts.

[Prinha]

TLDR: I don't get what the complaint is about.

I only play Wendy, Wolfgang, Wicker, Wormwood, Winona and WX regularly while swapping to Warly every once in a while. 
All these characters have very different strengths and weaknesses sometimes even playstyles for me. That's why I cycle through them. If they all had roughly the same strengths and weaknesses I wouldn't have a reason to play them all.

For example Wolfgang is kind of my main character for the first year of a longterm world even though I dislike his strongman aestethics. I would never play him if killing lots of different raid bosses on low ressources wasn't so much easier on him. 

And similarly I would never play WX if he wasn't so damn convenient in the ruins. 

On the other hand I see Wormwood as a challenge character. His perks and skill tree matter very little to me. I just like him and he improved my overall knowledge at this game so much when I first played him in solo worlds since his downside is very gameplay shaping.

Similarly I have played Wendy even before her rework and the rework of beefalo because I like her theme, aestethics and voice. Now she's just a really powerful character with a different playstyle. Murdering splumonkeys by the dozens? Fun. Figuring out how to keep Abigail alive and hitting on all kinds of bosses? Challenging. Hitting shadows with a 75% multiplier? Boring. Wittling down a raidboss slooooooowly because Abi died? Torture.
 

Wendy I use for Lunar Storm events and whenever I feel like playing Wendy.

So Wolfgang I use for early game and some raid bosses like Misery Toadstool. I like his quotes but am really not into muscles ... or beards.

Wicker I use for mass farming certain ressources, setting up tentacle traps and whenever I feel like playing Wicker.

Wormwood I use for running around the map on hyper speed pretending to be productive while farming farm plots and eating a lot of food. Also whenever I feel like playing him.

Winona is a secret love/hate relationship. I hate the way her nose sits on her face when I look at her from the side. It always strikes me as stupid. But she's Charly's sister. Once upon a time I used her for catapults and crafting a loooooooot of boards now it's mostly just reading quotes since I'm not all that much into the whole engeneering thing. And also because I want to craft vegetable stingers. I dk I can be obsessed over stuff like that.

WX I solely use for clearing out the ruins while not caring in the slightest about vision or food. His quotes are pretty funny but other than that I'm not particularly drawn to him.

And here are a bunch of characters who's aestethics I also like but do not play because I dislike their gameplay:

I love Willows theme and looks. I have a skin for her that's just amazing. Yet I'm not interested in sloooooooowly sucking up embers or managing Bernie. I really hate Bernie. 

Wanda. God Wanda. She's so powerful and so convenient. The ability to travel around the map like that. Love, love, love. Why oh why must she sound like a grandfather clock though? I don't want to look at an old woman when playing. I don't want to be reminded of my own aging. I dislike all characters that discourage crockpot usage.

Wigfrid. Maybe she could one day overtake Wolfgang's rule if only I ever found the motivation to actually play a solo world with her. Not a fan of the her over the top warrior speech but I shold give her another go.

Maxwell. Another powerful character I would like to like but just like Wanda I can't stand the sound he makes.

----

I don't assume that you share my personal preferences. 

Given how different they all are, why would you think that he number of skills has anything to do with ... what exactly? Balance? Fairness? How fitting the skill trees are? 

Since you mention it. Here's how I personally view the skill trees.

I think Wigfrid's skill tree is interesting, gameplay enhancing and there is actual choice in it (other than lunar affinities). 
I think Wormwoods skill tree is decent with choices that shape his gameplay.

I think Wolfgang's skill tree is beyond boring with very little actual choice. Yawn.

----
I don't use the Celestial Portal casually. The ressources required are scarce in the early game. Late game I'd say once or twice per season but I couldn't be bothered to switch every couple of days since it requires traveling to the portal and I don't play Wanda.

Skill trees allow me for the most part to tailor a survivor to my preferences. I want to decorate my whole base with headstones? Now I can. Somebody else might find those skills in Wendy's tree completly useless. *shrug* So they never take them just like I never take Wolfgang's gym skills.

Sometimes the role of a survivor changes over the course of a world. After crafting all the berry bushes I'll ever need, I can go to the portal and redo my skills, tailor them to my new needs. What's wrong with that? It seems to me you are saying just because somebody can light up the entire world permanently in the lategame that darkness doesn't really matter or something. 

Just to reiterate that. Chosing a shadow affinity killing a bunch of lunar aligned things, then switching and killing a bunch of shadow aligned things, etc. That's a valid playstyle. Personally the difference in power between the affinities on average is not big enough to make the ressource investment including travel time.

 

[Gashzer]

23 minutes ago, Anis5240 said:

I think it's an absolute shame to see the majority of Wolfgang's (other have this too but his was on such extreme levels) skill tree was just stat boosts.

I think the skilltrees have been implemented really well, reflecting each character and the playstyles they specialise in. I do have small issues here and there like :

• Wigfrid not having a skill to boost beefalo damage.
• I do enjoy Wilsons torch throw/torch skills but they could be condensed to be 3 or 5 skills instead of 7, same with beard branch. This would allow space for additional new skills.

For Wolfgang skilltree being the most "boring", consisting of simple stat boosts fits fantastically with what is expected when you choose to play wolfgang. When I play wolfgang i expect a "wilson" like playthrough were i spend less than half the amount of resources as normal to destroy bosses and farm stuff. His skilltree leans into that with critical chopping/mining and boosted affinity/planar damage.

Wolfgang is "Wilson but faster" and thats all he needs to be.

[Anis5240]

13 minutes ago, Prinha said:

Fairness

Yes, I do care about how many total skills they have and why Wigfrid got such a short end of the stick of said total skills.

Again, the fact that Klei dragged out so many filler perks (and especially stat boosts) just said a lot about their diminishing creativity. At best I'd just expect those to be in 2 tiers, not up to 5 like Wolfgang did.

[WilsonHiggs]

I dont see the problem of some characters having more skill points,as long as every skill tree is good and have different configurations, and different requirements to pick those perks. For some characters is easier to add new perks while some skill points are stronger than others so they need requirements to balance them

[Anis5240]

3 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said:

as long as every skill tree is good and have different configurations

too bad this wasn't the case for the majority of said skills

[WilsonHiggs]

Just now, Anis5240 said:

too bad this wasn't the case for the majority of said skills

I know but that isnt what we are discussing here

[Anis5240]

2 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said:

that isnt what we are discussing here

read the title of this thread please

"skill tree critiques as a whole"

so yes, that dissatisfaction for what said skills do also count.

[WilsonHiggs]

10 minutes ago, Anis5240 said:

read the title of this thread please

"skill tree critiques as a whole"

so yes, that dissatisfaction for what said skills do also count.

But the points you talk in your topic is what you ommited from my comment

[readkey]

On 3/2/2025 at 5:01 PM, Gashzer said:

For Wolfgang skilltree being the most "boring", consisting of simple stat boosts fits fantastically with what is expected when you choose to play wolfgang. When I play wolfgang i expect a "wilson" like playthrough were i spend less than half the amount of resources as normal to destroy bosses and farm stuff. His skilltree leans into that with critical chopping/mining and boosted affinity/planar damage.

Actually I think Wolfgang's skilltree has some merits people ignore:

1. Increase max mightiness with the gym allows non-rushing and/or base building players to stay Mighty forever very easily. It is much safer to stay Mighty as long as you can rather than nervously lifting dumbells when accidents come. Pre-skilltree Wolfgang is a chore in long term worlds.

2. If you are confident on planning ahead and don't mind lifting dumbells everytime before you start a fight, then you can use Leg Day or even Coaching. I see many people choose to do this but at the same time complain on the dumbell part. I think this is supposed to be a choice you have to make. 

3. Aside from the planar damage route, his other skills are not necessarily maxed out. Chores III has diminishing effect on chances, 150 mightiness is not a must, 100% damage on throwing dumbell is rarely used. Other character's are usually forced to fully commit a skill route, but Wolfgang doesn't have to.

It is not a big deal but it is something. Like you said I never expect Wolfgang's skills to be anything complicated. He is already dealing more than 200% to either Shadow or Lunar aligned creatures, which is something cannot be ignored anyway.

[Echsrick]

On 3/2/2025 at 8:06 AM, Anis5240 said:

including lunar affinity

how dareth thee f'rgetting about the shadow arts?

[Anis5240]

5 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

how dareth thee f'rgetting about the shadow arts?

that 25 was with shadow affinity lel

[Jakepeng99]

Out of allmthe reasons to hate skilltrees, this is the most pointless.

[Echsrick]

16 minutes ago, Anis5240 said:

that 25 was with shadow affinity lel

then whats the point of spesificaly calling moon its seperate thing?

[Anis5240]

Just now, Echsrick said:

then whats the point of spesificaly calling moon its seperate thing?

cuz it was a separate thing?????

[Echsrick]

1 minute ago, Anis5240 said:

cuz it was a separate thing?????

and so is shadow skills

[Anis5240]

8 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

and so is shadow skills

I said "total skills"

[DVGMedia]

It's important that all the trees have a standard to them  many of them have a bunch of just filller with 1 or 2 cool things  and there really is no aspect of choice every character has gotten a this is the most optimal build for them. There are very few that provides a new playstyle.  They said they c will be looking at the skills again sometime later this year after they finish from beyond. 

[Echsrick]

1 hour ago, Anis5240 said:

I said "total skills"

that dont mean the moon skill cant be a total skill, by that we must exclude any and all skills that have a lock of some sorts