wortox 12/13 Wortox Hotfix: Feedback, Requests, Example New Builds + Imaginary Build

[Dingle]

I got to mess with some builds really fast for the latest Wortox Hotfix.

I'm going to provide my feedback for the changes, then requests for some tweaks. At the end, I also have some example builds to illustrate my points. And then I have a build at the very end that would only be possible with a change in my #1 request, below.

I'll be numbering all my stuff, for easy discussion. I'm also providing extra details, for people that are interested in Wortox, but not playing the beta.

There's a lot more builds than I cover, and I'm sure there's some I forgot about. Post yours in here!

Feedback

F1. The Affinity (Lunar, Shadow) making Inclinations (Naughty, Nice) one point easier is great. I can't think of any changes. They make 8/6/1 (Inclination/Inclination/Affinity) builds possible, opening up a lot of new options versus the harsh limit before that forced 9/6 builds before, or 7/7/1 if you wanted an Affinity. So before, you had to choose between Affinity or Inclination for most builds. Now you don't have to. Build #1 and Build #2, below, show a couple examples.

F2. The Neutral points helping unlock the 5 point limits are much less useful than I thought they would be, before I got to test them in-game. Short summaries before I get into it with the next two points: If you pick an affinity on a good build, your build is only probably going to save on 1 single Naughty point, even if you get all 3 Neutral skills. There's some build ok-ish options for picking 3 Neutral skills to save you 3 points of Nice, but if you do this, you really shouldn't pick an Affinity. Picking 2 Neutral skills only generally saves you one point, not two.

The big blockers for the Neutral point unlock being useful: Reverberation and Soul Jar.

F3. If you're picking an Affinity, you really should get Reverberation. It is foolish not to. It makes either Affinity twice as good. If you're getting Reverberation, it costs 3 points, so the Neutral points unlocker is moot. Builds #3 and #4 below have examples of saving 3 Nice unlock points by getting 3 points into Neutral, but they also skip Reverberation and don't get an Affinity.

F4. If you're playing Wortox at all, I can't imagine a situation where you would NOT get Soul Jar. Unless you're making a terrible build on purpose. If anyone has an exception to this, please post it below. Because you should always get Soul Jar, and it costs 2 points, I can't think of a situation where putting 2 points into Neutral actually saves you 2 unlock points in Naughty. It would just be 1 in almost all cases I'd want it for.

Requests

R1. Please consider moving Soul Jar to either under Knabsack, so it takes 1 point to grab instead of 2, or just make it base kit and replace its perk with a new one. I'd prefer the latter, but I'm also in the mindset that Winona probably should have gotten portability base kit. It feels off to me that something so basic to Wortox takes 2 points to grab. Build #5 is a quick example of how even making Soul Jar take one point would bring up interesting build options for picking up 2 Neutral points, but not grabbing Greed or Covetous (which would sting to not get, but it's nice to have more options).

R2. Maybe do something with the Affinities so Reverberation isn't practically a requirement. I have no idea what, as I have been focusing more on the early game in my playthroughs. There are other experienced Wortox players that have been doing playthroughs in the beta, so they should have better ideas than me. @OMEGASCRUFF and @Bearger Enjoyer come to mind.

Builds

B1. You can make a Nice build with both Soul Damage and an Affinity now! Massive improvement to before.

B2. Similarly, you can make a Naughty build with Twintail.

B3. You could get 3 Neutral talents, Soul Bastion, AND a 8 Naughty perks if you don't get Reverb or an Affinity. I probably would never do this, but it's interesting if you don't have access to your Affinities yet. This is one of two sort of decent builds I could think of that lets you replace Nice point unlocks with Neutral.


B4. Similarly, you could get 9 Naughty perks and still get Lifegiver 3, if you skip Reverberation and an Affinity.

 

Imaginary, Theoretical Build if Soul Jar was Moved Down One Point

B5. If Soul Jar was moved down so you can get it with 1 point (or it was made base kit), you could do a build like the below one.

EDIT: Woops, I messed up this build! I meant to have no points in Soul Decoy, and instead get Twintail 3. This would make it a 7 Nice, 2 Neutral, 5 Naughty build with Nice Inclination and an Affinity.

Like I said, this would be really nice if you wanted to forgo Knabsack, Overwhelming Greed, AND Covetous Collector. I'd really like it if this were possible, and I think it's an interesting tradeoff instead of a power boost.

That's all for now! Like I said there's now more builds to play with, but these are the ones I wanted to show off the most.

The hotfix was a really good step forward. I'd call Wortox builds tight now compared to most of the cast, but not oppressively so.

[ApoIIo]

10 minutes ago, Dingle said:

B2. Similarly, you can make a Naughty build with Twintail.

I will give significantly better feedback once my coffee kicks in but I just wanted to say, decoy 1 over capricious truly made me want to gouge my eyes out.

[Echsrick]

F2: as i suggested, and/or reducing the lock needed amount to 3...or maybe 4? if combined with neutral workin for and 4 point lock maybe that would be better, but if anything i do belive it opens things up a bit more then before, like before i may not even be interested into neutral skills at all but now they work for the locks they look more worth to pick

F3: reverberation was douple soul echo right? dont soul echo get consumed when you use the affinity perk like shadow reapers strong attack? wich may make me not realy pick it but i dont know i may have mixed something up

F4:  soul jar sure is strong, i mean i problably would only carry 1 of it but i can think of 2 reasons why one would skip it, first would be the free souls you get from playing the free panflute use, in a way it "stores" 6 souls, and second would be if base is next to river and you make some trawlers nets and tinfishing bins for that to be a soul storage of life fish....but yea soul jar sould be first given how much more good it realy is


R1: yea again, soul jar is realy more a "must have" skill then knapsack

 

[Dingle]

11 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

F2: as i suggested, and/or reducing the lock needed amount to 3...or maybe 4? if combined with neutral workin for and 4 point lock maybe that would be better, but if anything i do belive it opens things up a bit more then before, like before i may not even be interested into neutral skills at all but now they work for the locks they look more worth to pick

F3: reverberation was douple soul echo right? dont soul echo get consumed when you use the affinity perk like shadow reapers strong attack? wich may make me not realy pick it but i dont know i may have mixed something up

F4:  soul jar sure is strong, i mean i problably would only carry 1 of it but i can think of 2 reasons why one would skip it, first would be the free souls you get from playing the free panflute use, in a way it "stores" 6 souls, and second would be if base is next to river and you make some trawlers nets and tinfishing bins for that to be a soul storage of life fish....but yea soul jar sould be first given how much more good it realy is


R1: yea again, soul jar is realy more a "must have" skill then knapsack

F2: Not sure, haven't thought more on a solution yet. Oh, bonus note for you, forgot to say it: It's very pointless to get just one point in Neutral perks. The first pan flute perk is basically a required filler.

F3: Reverberation lets you soul hop twice. The affinities take up one soul echo per use. So Reverberation makes them twice as strong. Maybe over twice as strong with the Reaper, as less hops means less dps bonus lost, I believe. I haven't messed with affinities a lot except getting lunar for shadow damage, not the equipment parts.

F4: Don't do that haha. Don't skip soul jar.

[Echsrick]

8 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Don't do that haha. Don't skip soul jar.

i will still base at rivers with trawlers nets and tinfishin bins for passive fish farms for just existing next to the river, get souls for free and store them for later, and soul jar because i am that naughty, fish gettin from container to container to container in all its differend forms of trap, storage, and its finished product....and the fish gets dried to turn into normal meat for meatystews

[Dingle]

2 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

i will still base at rivers with trawlers nets and tinfishin bins for passive fish farms for just existing next to the river, get souls for free and store them for later, and soul jar because i am that naughty, fish gettin from container to container to container in all its differend forms of trap, storage, and its finished product....and the fish gets dried to turn into normal meat for meatystews

Have you tried this in a real game? How much fish do you get a day, if you're moving around the world a lot?

It seems like they recently made it so trawlers no longer work offscreen. I tried them in beta, because I like the idea of them and I had them in a plan for Pearl rushing. They seem way less effective than I remember.

In any case, you will want at least 1 soul jar. One carries 40 souls. It triples the amount of souls you can carry. You can't carry 40 fish with you!

[Echsrick]

6 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Have you tried this in a real game? How much fish do you get a day, if you're moving around the world a lot?

It seems like they recently made it so trawlers no longer work offscreen. I tried them in beta, because I like the idea of them and I had them in a plan for Pearl rushing. They seem way less effective than I remember.

In any case, you will want at least 1 soul jar. One carries 40 souls. It triples the amount of souls you can carry. You can't carry 40 fish with you!

on one of the meow servers were i made a hidden base hidden away from the others, i got to work on my own base and it pretty much gets fish over time, if i rest up at base there probably a fish swarm spawning at the river for fish to go on there own into the traps, and its not like i only take fish souls, the 2 tinfishin bins are regularly full because i only take what i need right now, like refilling my souls after a trip somewhere like teleporting to moon isle and back to do some things on it, of course i get the jar but its allways good to have multiple ways of gettin souls and meat at the same time, especialy because jar needs red gem and empty bottle wich you may not get that early and easy, if graves only give 1 red gem ever and you need to make it into a purple gem for shadow magic then that will take a while gettin the jar, i think i realy sould make a screenshot of the base at some point when i get the chance,

[ApoIIo]

Oh uh my power is out but I will definitely join the discussion soontm

[Dingle]

20 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

on one of the meow servers were i made a hidden base hidden away from the others, i got to work on my own base and it pretty much gets fish over time, if i rest up at base there probably a fish swarm spawning at the river for fish to go on there own into the traps, and its not like i only take fish souls, the 2 tinfishin bins are regularly full because i only take what i need right now, like refilling my souls after a trip somewhere like teleporting to moon isle and back to do some things on it, of course i get the jar but its allways good to have multiple ways of gettin souls and meat at the same time, especialy because jar needs red gem and empty bottle wich you may not get that early and easy, if graves only give 1 red gem ever and you need to make it into a purple gem for shadow magic then that will take a while gettin the jar, i think i realy sould make a screenshot of the base at some point when i get the chance,

Yeah, get a screenshot of the base and maybe an estimate of how many fish it gets in a day on average. Does it work offscreen, or only when you're in it?

I also thought of wickerbottom book + cannon trick for fast souls, but you need a wicker or maxwell for that.

[ApoIIo]

2 hours ago, Dingle said:

F2. The Neutral points helping unlock the 5 point limits are much less useful than I thought they would be, before I got to test them in-game. Short summaries before I get into it with the next two points: If you pick an affinity on a good build, your build is only probably going to save on 1 single Naughty point, even if you get all 3 Neutral skills. There's some build ok-ish options for picking 3 Neutral skills to save you 3 points of Nice, but if you do this, you really shouldn't pick an Affinity. Picking 2 Neutral skills only generally saves you one point, not two.

As someone who starts their earlygame as nice Wortox for the easy sanity control vs fuelweaver, I really enjoyed this change because it finally allowed nice Wortox with affinity to have some sort of AoE in the earlygame. Before, I was MALDING spending like a day or two of killing to fill my jars. AoE really makes Wortox so much less annoying to play and missing out on it sucked.
Decoy is also notably better than pierce for this because 1) One less point cost fits snugly 2) Works best during day 1 while my best weapon is still an axe so it was easier to cover more ground and repair the knight before day 1 knight for an early fuelweaver kill. The whole run style began taking far less resets compared to what Nice Wortox could do before.

After nice wortox shadow rifts rush, catch me rocking this:

2 hours ago, Dingle said:

F3. If you're picking an Affinity, you really should get Reverberation. It is foolish not to. It makes either Affinity twice as good. If you're getting Reverberation, it costs 3 points, so the Neutral points unlocker is moot. Builds #3 and #4 below have examples of saving 3 Nice unlock points by getting 3 points into Neutral, but they also skip Reverberation and don't get an Affinity.

I think it is really silly for both affinities to hinge on a third skill on a branch that is otherwise not about affinities. I could've seen myself dropping reverberation after earlygame mapping in favor of using map hops almost exclusively/using decoy with a bit less effort (yes I am aware jar-cancelling exists, it is a good strat and I use it) but them being HALF my reaper's worth makes it pretty much a must-have skill. Though I also personally consider capricious movement an absolute must-have as well so that's 4 points fixed on any build of mine.

 

2 hours ago, Dingle said:

F4. If you're playing Wortox at all, I can't imagine a situation where you would NOT get Soul Jar. Unless you're making a terrible build on purpose. If anyone has an exception to this, please post it below. Because you should always get Soul Jar, and it costs 2 points, I can't think of a situation where putting 2 points into Neutral actually saves you 2 unlock points in Naughty. It would just be 1 in almost all cases I'd want it for.

1 hour ago, Echsrick said:

on one of the meow servers were i made a hidden base hidden away from the others, i got to work on my own base and it pretty much gets fish over time, if i rest up at base there probably a fish swarm spawning at the river for fish to go on there own into the traps, and its not like i only take fish souls, the 2 tinfishin bins are regularly full because i only take what i need right now, like refilling my souls after a trip somewhere like teleporting to moon isle and back to do some things on it, of course i get the jar but its allways good to have multiple ways of gettin souls and meat at the same time, especialy because jar needs red gem and empty bottle wich you may not get that early and easy, if graves only give 1 red gem ever and you need to make it into a purple gem for shadow magic then that will take a while gettin the jar, i think i realy sould make a screenshot of the base at some point when i get the chance,

I personally consider jar an absolute must, it's so much better than other forms of storing souls e.g. fish or bees/butterflies. Sure using fish trawlers with tin bins is one method and it also gives you meat but like... I am NOT going through so many clicks and drying racks and dealing with the slow passive income of fish nets and whatnot just to imitate what killing 6 bees and eating the souls of 3 would do. If I cannot find red gems on the surface, catch me in the ruins. 
Even one jar is so much better than none so I am making a jar with it if I only get one red gem on the surface. I can just kill one out of the million bishops down there and that's your manipulator.

 

2 hours ago, Dingle said:

Imaginary, Theoretical Build if Soul Jar was Moved Down One Point

B5. If Soul Jar was moved down so you can get it with 1 point (or it was made base kit), you could do a build like the below one.

Best ending would be if I could get the +5 capacity per jar skill and jar only, without ever touching that thing. No I will never stop despising the sack.
Society if jar without knapsack: 

[OMEGASCRUFF]

Hey @Dingle, I think no matter what, if you're Naughty, it might end up being a little difficult to get any mileage even if Soul Jar is moved down just because of how valuable Overwhelming Greed and Reverberation both are. You can live without Overwhelming Greed, but it's such a QoL skill that I'm not sure I'd ever give it up for anything. However, yes, a fully Nice build would definitely have another point to work with if you're willing to sacrifice it.

Anyways, if Soul Jar moved down to the first slot, I don't see a way it would matter for anything but an all-in Nice build to gain an extra point somewhere (Pleasant Pastorale, probably.) Basically, it's just the build you suggested with Soul Jar moved down, but with full Nice skills. (Pretend for these screenshots Nabsacker is Soul Jar.)

At the moment, my own Nice build sacrifices Soul Bastion II but keeps Soul Bastion I for the extra point for an affinity + Pleasant Pastorale due to the Soul Jar location. This would be a bit nicer. I could also drop Soul Bastion II for Soul Decoy I for its utility, too, but I probably wouldn't.

This build would also be new:

Though, you can basically just do the same thing as this right now but drop Cloudy Carmine for the current Soul Jar location. This could be modified to take Soul Bastion I over Lifebringer III once Lazy Deserters have been set up everywhere you want them, and you can drop Cloudy Carmine for Soul Bastion II if you want.

Lastly, this would also be new:

I'd recommend against this though. I think Capricious Movement + affinity alone are too worthwhile over Soul Bastion.

Just for reference, my preferred Nice build wouldn't be affected at all because I take Overwhelming Greed, and I'm fine to just use Bramble Armors for farming.


I don't think this will matter at all if you're taking Soul Pierce, since it kinda begs for Covetous Collector. You can live without the bonus damage on it, but I'm not really sure why you'd skip it when you also gain the Nabsack along the way, and one point can be invested into Overwhelming Greed from there, too. I suppose it would open up options a little in the first build you listed, by moving two points from Nabsacker (where it would be) + Overwhelming Greed to get access to Pleasant Pastorale, but I think what you have is better no matter what. Still, I'm in favor of Soul Jar moving down a slot just for the Nice build to feel absolutely complete.

Regarding Reverberation, they could just make it not affect the affinities, and double up the affinities automatically on Soul Echos, but this seems a little odd to me. I can't really think of another solution to this. It wouldn't thematically make sense to move Reverberation down in its branch, either.

[Dingle]

11 minutes ago, Bearger Enjoyer said:

As someone who starts their earlygame as nice Wortox for the easy sanity control vs fuelweaver, I really enjoyed this change because it finally allowed nice Wortox with affinity to have some sort of AoE in the earlygame. Before, I was MALDING spending like a day or two of killing to fill my jars. AoE really makes Wortox so much less annoying to play and missing out on it sucked.
Decoy is also notably better than pierce for this because 1) One less point cost fits snugly 2) Works best during day 1 while my best weapon is still an axe so it was easier to cover more ground and repair the knight before day 1 knight for an early fuelweaver kill. The whole run style began taking far less resets compared to what Nice Wortox could do before.

After nice wortox shadow rifts rush, catch me rocking this:

I think it is really silly for both affinities to hinge on a third skill on a branch that is otherwise not about affinities. I could've seen myself dropping reverberation after earlygame mapping in favor of using map hops almost exclusively/using decoy with a bit less effort

Your first build is likely exactly what I would go for in multiplayer, usually. And its made possible by the neutral locks change, before you'd have lose capricious. Still hoping they move jar down one, because then I could get piercing 4. I still am not a big fan of decoy 3, but I understand it.

I also would just ditch the pan flute perks midgame, still.

The second build is one I used at start of my worlds,  before starting to mess with the pan flute perks.

11 minutes ago, Bearger Enjoyer said:

Best ending would be if I could get the +5 capacity per jar skill and jar only, without ever touching that thing. No I will never stop despising the sack.
Society if jar without knapsack: 

"I know I shouldn't be greedy..." -- Wortox, while constantly being greedy

[ApoIIo]

1 minute ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

I don't think this will matter at all if you're taking Soul Pierce, since it kinda begs for Covetous Collector. You can live without the bonus damage on it, but I'm not really sure why you'd skip it when you also gain the Nabsack along the way, and one point can be invested into Overwhelming Greed from there, too. I suppose it would open up options a little in the first build you listed, by moving two points from Nabsack (where it would be) + Overwhelming Greed to get access to Pleasant Pastorale, but I think what you have is better no matter what. Still, I'm in favor of Soul Jar moving down a slot just for the Nice build to feel absolutely complete.

The bonus damage for pierce and decoy cap at 1.25x when you are holding 100 souls so it is not very impressive. You still cannot break the 34 damage threshold with pierce. I use pierce mainly for farming souls and it works just fine at 25 damage and the boost wouldn't even kick in until I am nearly done farming said souls. Skipping it also lets me get full naughty except it, affinity and all teleport skills on the nice side which is my currently preferred post-FW build. I also just don't think the knabsack is worth anything.

 

4 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Hey @Dingle, I think no matter what, if you're Naughty, it might end up being a little difficult to get any mileage even if Soul Jar is moved down just because of how valuable Overwhelming Greed and Reverberation both are. You can live without Overwhelming Greed, but it's such a QoL skill that I'm not sure I'd ever give it up for anything. However, yes, a fully Nice build would definitely have another point to work with if you're willing to sacrifice it.

If you are nice, overwhelming greed is super nice to have, but naughty's tendency effect makes it far easier to avoid an overload by stuffing the excess souls in a jar during the window, or just releasing them. I have lived without either as nice Wortox during my earlygame build though, it felt fine.


Also, am I the only person who thinks soul bastion 2 is... weirdly useless? I just don't see the point. Granted I also never take bastion 1 because 15 health feels more than enough, but at least that one does something significant. I think I would like bastion 2 more if it increased the sanity per soul dropped or something.

[Dingle]

11 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Hey @Dingle, I think no matter what, if you're Naughty, it might end up being a little difficult to get any mileage even if Soul Jar is moved down just because of how valuable Overwhelming Greed and Reverberation both are. You can live without Overwhelming Greed, but it's such a QoL skill that I'm not sure I'd ever give it up for anything. However, yes, a fully Nice build would definitely have another point to work with if you're willing to sacrifice it.

Anyways, if Soul Jar moved down to the first slot, I don't see a way it would matter for anything but an all-in Nice build to gain an extra point somewhere (Pleasant Pastorale, probably.) Basically, it's just the build you suggested with Soul Jar moved down, but with full Nice skills. (Pretend for these screenshots Nabsacker is Soul Jar.)
At the moment, my own Nice build sacrifices Soul Bastion II but keeps Soul Bastion I for the extra point for an affinity + Pleasant Pastorale due to the Soul Jar location. This would be a bit nicer. I could also drop Soul Bastion II for Soul Decoy I for its utility, too, but I probably wouldn't.

This build would also be new:

Though, you can basically just do the same thing as this right now but drop Cloudy Carmine for the current Soul Jar location. This could be modified to take Soul Bastion I over Lifebringer III once Lazy Deserters have been set up everywhere you want them, and you can drop Cloudy Carmine for Soul Bastion II if you want.

Lastly, this would also be new:

I'd recommend against this though. I think Capricious Movement + affinity alone are too worthwhile over Soul Bastion.

Just for reference, my preferred Nice build wouldn't be affected at all because I take Overwhelming Greed, and I'm fine to just use Bramble Armors for farming.


I don't think this will matter at all if you're taking Soul Pierce, since it kinda begs for Covetous Collector. You can live without the bonus damage on it, but I'm not really sure why you'd skip it when you also gain the Nabsack along the way, and one point can be invested into Overwhelming Greed from there, too. I suppose it would open up options a little in the first build you listed, by moving two points from Nabsack (where it would be) + Overwhelming Greed to get access to Pleasant Pastorale, but I think what you have is better no matter what. Still, I'm in favor of Soul Jar moving down a slot just for the Nice build to feel absolutely complete.

Regarding Reverberation, they could just make it not affect the affinities, and double up the affinities automatically on Soul Echos, but this seems a little odd to me. I can't really think of another solution to this. It wouldn't thematically make sense to move Reverberation down in its branch, either.

Distracting so my reply may not be great

I could live without Overwhelming Greed. But it would suck, yes. But I could try if it opened up something interesting to me (if soul jar was a one pointer or free).

I messed up the OP! Made an edit, but just text. My build 5 is supposed to look like your second build, but with pierce 4 instead of decoy 3 and no cloudy carmine.

Why do you only get 1 pan flute talent in your last, preferred build?

[OMEGASCRUFF]

Okay, come to think of it... There is one option but I don't know if they'd want to give us this much freedom... They could split up the Lifted Spirits and Nabsack branches in half. I'd probably connect Lifted Spirits to Capricious Movement and Lifted Spirits II (it would need a new name, I'm not good at naming things though) to Reverberation. Nabsacker and Covetous Collector would be connected, leaving Soul Jar and Overwhelming Greed together.

It'd look like this.


This would be... huge. Like, super huge. @Bearger Enjoyer would have his utopia.

9 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Why do you only get 1 pan flute talent in your last, preferred build?

Extra point. Depends on how many players I've got, 'cause Soul Bastion II is fine also, but I don't normally play with more than 3 or 4 people and I tend to take the leadership role, so I'm usually the one responsible for Pan Flutes during any relevant bosses. I'd be more inclined to take Soul Bastion II with 4+ players though.

[Dingle]

13 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Okay, come to think of it... There is one option but I don't know if they'd want to give us this much freedom... They could split up the Lifted Spirits and Nabsack branches in half. I'd probably connect Lifted Spirits to Capricious Movement and Lifted Spirits II (it would need a new name, I'm not good at naming things though) to Reverberation. Nabsacker and Covetous Collector would be connected, leaving Soul Jar and Overwhelming Greed together.

It'd look like this.


This would be... huge. Like, super huge. @Bearger Enjoyer would have his utopia.

Extra point. Depends on how many players I've got, 'cause Soul Bastion II is fine also, but I don't normally play with more than 3 or 4 people and I tend to take the leadership role, so I'm usually the one responsible for Pan Flutes during any relevant bosses. I'd be more inclined to take Soul Bastion II with 4+ players though.

That is really open. Not that it's unprecedented. Wendy has an extremely open/loose skill tree. I remember Wolfgang ST being really open, too. Easy to dump points where ever.

I'm not sure what Kleis exact design logic is on some characters having tight skill trees, some having them loose/open is. It seems to vary.

My ideal is probably Woodie, just from a design perspective. It doesn't feel artificially tight for the most part (though goose has some obvious filler). There's a lot of build options, even unexpected ones. And it isn't so loose that a boring "absolute best build" caught on, like what happened to Wolfgang (and playing with it some, I expect Wendy to get the same fate).

That said you also get a boring "this is the best build" problem if things are too tight. I think there's not much Willow build variety at this point, just  really go flame and pick lunar vs shadow.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

44 minutes ago, Bearger Enjoyer said:

The bonus damage for pierce and decoy cap at 1.25x when you are holding 100 souls so it is not very impressive. You still cannot break the 34 damage threshold with pierce. I use pierce mainly for farming souls and it works just fine at 25 damage and the boost wouldn't even kick in until I am nearly done farming said souls. Skipping it also lets me get full naughty except it, affinity and all teleport skills on the nice side which is my currently preferred post-FW build. I also just don't think the knabsack is worth anything.

If you are nice, overwhelming greed is super nice to have, but naughty's tendency effect makes it far easier to avoid an overload by stuffing the excess souls in a jar during the window, or just releasing them. I have lived without either as nice Wortox during my earlygame build though, it felt fine.

It's because of the current Soul Jar location. There's no reason to take Impromptu Flautist over Covetous Collector or even Overwhelming Greed instead at the moment.

If Soul Jar moved, it'd be like this, but it's really just good for farming + Fuelweaver.

I just don't really have any qualms with using Soul Decoy III instead for farming Souls, because it gives me bonus damage in EVERY important fight. It's more universal, and Soul Decoy + Soul Jar toggling can litter the Fuelweaver arena with clones anyway. I don't know why I'd take this though when I can just drop the Neutral skills and get Overwhelming Greed, and take either Covetous Collector or Capricious Movement, but this setup grants Nice inclination, which is new. I'm fine with Neutral though, but if you really want the Nice bonuses, this makes some sense. Still, this would need the Soul Jar skill to move down.

 

44 minutes ago, Bearger Enjoyer said:

Also, am I the only person who thinks soul bastion 2 is... weirdly useless? I just don't see the point. Granted I also never take bastion 1 because 15 health feels more than enough, but at least that one does something significant. I think I would like bastion 2 more if it increased the sanity per soul dropped or something.

I think it's mostly for larger servers to lower the penalty for how many targets you heal. I don't think I'll ever take it since I don't normally play with over 4 people on a server, and the penalty doesn't consider full-health players anyways.

 

5 minutes ago, Dingle said:

That is really open. Not that it's unprecedented. Wendy has an extremely open/loose skill tree. I remember Wolfgang ST being really open, too. Easy to dump points where ever.

I'm not sure what Kleis exact design logic is on some characters having tight skill trees, some having them loose/open is. It seems to vary.

My ideal is probably Woodie, just from a design perspective. It doesn't feel artificially tight for the most part (though goose has some obvious filler). There's a lot of build options, even unexpected ones. And it isn't so loose that a boring "absolute best build" caught on, like what happened to Wolfgang (and playing with it some, I expect Wendy to get the same fate).

Yeah it's... A bit generous. I'm not sure they'd be willing to go for something like this, but everything would be WAY different if it were like this.

[Echsrick]

2 hours ago, Dingle said:

get a screenshot of the base and maybe an estimate of how many fish it gets in a day on average

this is from my save from the meow servers, its open for everyone just that i am most of the time alone on here, with ocasional random players joining that may or may not stick around a bit longer, or they just leave if they have not died first, it somewhat depends, fish usualy only spawns near the player so depending how close i am to base and stuff, usualy a day a fish or 2 sometimes bit more, this time i got lots of fish after the trip to pigking giving him all the trinkets i had, no rifts activated, i am not a fan of them especialy the moon rift, not any bosse realy killed exchept dragonfly that a wolfgang early game wanted to do only for him to die midway and i needing to use grass armor in the end to win that fight, deerclops is easy, antlion only on first summer, bearger with the help of treeguards and several treeguards aswell, during summer i do some cave exploring, not done the ruins only found the entrance areas with monkeys, i took some rocklobsters to them to distract monkeys and overall help me out there a bit while i destroyed some of the monkey spawners, the rocklobsters i took seem to have despawned at least i not seen them again, ocean well, done some of pearls quests, made the first moon altar thing for some glass cutters, and some treasure hunting on the ocean wich got me orange staff and amulet without ruins, and these special trees too

in short i get every day at least a fish if i am close enought to base for it to spawn fish and them goin into the trawlers nets on there own, close by is stage play for more free random loot and 3 souls from bramble hounds, a pig house inside base for ocasional pigskin, spiders in the forest, bees not too far away, and in winter walrus exist and i am litteraly the base next to all 4 of them so soul gettin realy not that big of a problem for me, of course, for longer trips the soul jar is allways a good thing to have with you if its filled with some souls

[Dingle]

11 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

this is from my save from the meow servers, its open for everyone just that i am most of the time alone on here, with ocasional random players joining that may or may not stick around a bit longer, or they just leave if they have not died first, it somewhat depends, fish usualy only spawns near the player so depending how close i am to base and stuff, usualy a day a fish or 2 sometimes bit more, this time i got lots of fish after the trip to pigking giving him all the trinkets i had, no rifts activated, i am not a fan of them especialy the moon rift, not any bosse realy killed exchept dragonfly that a wolfgang early game wanted to do only for him to die midway and i needing to use grass armor in the end to win that fight, deerclops is easy, antlion only on first summer, bearger with the help of treeguards and several treeguards aswell, during summer i do some cave exploring, not done the ruins only found the entrance areas with monkeys, i took some rocklobsters to them to distract monkeys and overall help me out there a bit while i destroyed some of the monkey spawners, the rocklobsters i took seem to have despawned at least i not seen them again, ocean well, done some of pearls quests, made the first moon altar thing for some glass cutters, and some treasure hunting on the ocean wich got me orange staff and amulet without ruins, and these special trees too

in short i get every day at least a fish if i am close enought to base for it to spawn fish and them goin into the trawlers nets on there own, close by is stage play for more free random loot and 3 souls from bramble hounds, a pig house inside base for ocasional pigskin, spiders in the forest, bees not too far away, and in winter walrus exist and i am litteraly the base next to all 4 of them so soul gettin realy not that big of a problem for me, of course, for longer trips the soul jar is allways a good thing to have with you if its filled with some souls

Thanks for this! Sounds like the trawlers don't work for you unless you're in the base, too (not offscreen).

Always fun to see other people's bases.

[Echsrick]

12 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Thanks for this! Sounds like the trawlers don't work for you unless you're in the base, too (not offscreen).

Always fun to see other people's bases.

well they do kind of work offscreen its like a certain distance for it to work, alsol thank you! i think i made a rather more unique base lookin place, i mean who makes a base in walrus forest next to a river? well i guess the abandoned base of my neightbor wich got half destroyed by a bearger but that was underdeveloped and abandoned by...that player never showing up again anyways

[ApoIIo]

2 hours ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

It's because of the current Soul Jar location. There's no reason to take Impromptu Flautist over Covetous Collector or even Overwhelming Greed instead at the moment.

I just don't really have any qualms with using Soul Decoy III instead for farming Souls, because it gives me bonus damage in EVERY important fight. It's more universal, and Soul Decoy + Soul Jar toggling can litter the Fuelweaver arena with clones anyway.

Impromptu flautist on its own is not impressive. Without the cool additional panflute perks I am not too interested in saving durability of an item that is 0.24 green gems and 4 reeds per 9 uses. I like it alongside pastorale to get occasional free souls, and because it is a prerequisite. Otherwise, hard pass.

I just get decoy and pierce both. Decoy works on its own for soul farming but pierce snowballs better. So I get both, because decoy is also ok single-target damage, and less annoying solution to revealing rickus.

Not my video. My inventory would not be that messy.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

2 minutes ago, Bearger Enjoyer said:

Impromptu flautist on its own is not impressive. Without the cool additional panflute perks I am not too interested in saving durability of an item that is 0.24 green gems and 4 reeds per 9 uses. I like it alongside pastorale to get occasional free souls, and because it is a prerequisite. Otherwise, hard pass.

Right, it was both, I meant. The screenshot below it has both. They're just moved into Covetous Collector.

[ApoIIo]

9 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Right, it was both, I meant. The screenshot below it has both. They're just moved into Covetous Collector.

I would take +5 capacity per jar over panflute stuff down the line because I can farm souls like in the way above, store like 200 on me and voila. Early on the free/green gem burning souls as well as pacifying clockworks(rooks mainly, bishops are easy to torch when they are alone) help a fair bit but I don't really clear the ruins much. The damage one, eh, no. 

[Dingle]

2 hours ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

 

This is exactly the build I meant to post as Build 5 in my first post, by the way.

Mostly I thought of it as a way to actually have a 2 Neutral skill unlocker scenario actually fit perfectly. Currently, there isn't any (good) case of this.

Other than that, the main interesting thing about this theoretical build is as you pointed out, you get to have Nice.

13 minutes ago, Bearger Enjoyer said:

I would take +5 capacity per jar over panflute stuff down the line because I can farm souls like in the way above, store like 200 on me and voila. Early on the free/green gem burning souls as well as pacifying clockworks(rooks mainly, bishops are easy to torch when they are alone) help a fair bit but I don't really clear the ruins much. The damage one, eh, no. 

I still wish the pan flute perks were a little better. Or Impromptu was combined with one of the other 2, and they added some new third one.

As is, I agree that they are interesting for early game rushing, then ditching them all in a respec. Though that still counts as a niche, I guess.

[Jppacs]

6 hours ago, Echsrick said:

F2: as i suggested, and/or reducing the lock needed amount to 3...or maybe 4? if combined with neutral workin for and 4 point lock maybe that would be better, but if anything i do belive it opens things up a bit more then before, like before i may not even be interested into neutral skills at all but now they work for the locks they look more worth to pick

F3: reverberation was douple soul echo right? dont soul echo get consumed when you use the affinity perk like shadow reapers strong attack? wich may make me not realy pick it but i dont know i may have mixed something up

F4:  soul jar sure is strong, i mean i problably would only carry 1 of it but i can think of 2 reasons why one would skip it, first would be the free souls you get from playing the free panflute use, in a way it "stores" 6 souls, and second would be if base is next to river and you make some trawlers nets and tinfishing bins for that to be a soul storage of life fish....but yea soul jar sould be first given how much more good it realy is


R1: yea again, soul jar is realy more a "must have" skill then knapsack

 

I really don't care about soul jars since you can carry critters to kill for souls as living soul jars anyways.