Why Wortox Skill tree is a good design with few problems

[Jazzuo]

Okay, basically tittle, first i wanna focus in what i think is actually good with the skill tree, and what i think put on the table interesting decision to deal while playing wortox.

 

Either way if you focus in one side you have the option to gain some power from the other side for 3 insight points

This is obvious when you want to focus on the Naughty side and can still get Lifebringer III for 3 insight points and have a good option to heal the entire team for little to no investment, this also happens with the Nice side, when you can invest 3 insight points in the Naughty side to get Soul Decay III and get some AoE damage to farm souls more easily without having to invest too much on the naughty side. (I'm guessing you'll get the Soul Jars here with the Knabsack and the Lifted Spirits with Reverberation)

The Soul jars and Knabsack are as good as Lifted spirits and Reverberation

Why do I say this? Well, because the soul jars are an interesting way to solve the problem that wortox had for a long time, it's boring to collect souls every time you ran out of souls, tbh bees are not so interesting in a fight, and I understand that, they are bees in the end, but to do the same fight every time, is sooooo boring, especially against the bees, yes I guess the problem has not like totally stop, but now you can save souls, which means this is less repetitive and it feels good tbh.

Knabsack is a good weapon, a little, I mean, I guess maybe i would reduce the souls required to 75 or 80, it doesn't feel good to save 20 souls to deal the most damage, which I understand why, but it still doesn't feel good, besides that, I like the interesting design of making a weapon technically better than a dark sword, which uses more item slots than a dark sword against normal bosses, but against raid bosses it's a simple upgrade, due to durability, and raid bosses simply having too much health and you need more dark swords at the end, this is obviously clear against the toadstool. anyway i could put numbers here but i don't think is gonna be that interesting, and probably is gonna be boring.

In any case, I don't think I need to explain why Lifted spirits and Reverberation are good perks and it feels good to have them. Because thanks to these perks you can get perks that require a large investment without feeling that this large investment is useless with your build. i love them, please keep it up with the good work.

 

Nice inclination and Naughty inclination

Well, this is kind of bad, I mean, don't get me wrong, I think the Naughty inclination is goated, and it's so powerful that I love it, but I have problems with the Nice inclination, it makes eating souls less rewarding, I mean . Okay, I guess, but the Naughty inclination erases that problem, at the cost of 2.5 sanity per soul, which wasn't so great to begin with. The Nice inclination makes the sanity restoration per soul 5, which is fine, but eating souls make you lose 10 sanity, this is a bit irrelevant if you know what you are doing, AKA eating cactus or green cap, or using 2 souls, but it's still kinda bad to use souls to restore 10 sanity, I mean. 5 sanity is not so good either, is the equivalent of picking up a petal or eating a crock pot dish. BUT YES, Klei should totally buff the Nice inclination, maybe put something in to deal with the overhealing that the Nice side has, something like the overhealth of abigail (?), or maybe a shield that blocks damage equal to the overheal or something, and put something fun on the Naughty inclination, like I don't know, gain double Naughtiness to summon Krampus or something small. Either way, if wortox appeared on the live servers like this, I'd be happy

Neutral perks

The neutral skills are kind of fun, but except for Pleasant Pastorale, no Neutral skills have any interaction with either side, I mean I don't hate the idea of focusing on pan flute, maybe Neutral can have a skill that interacts with the Nice side, for example. playing the pan flute restores some health and sanity, or maybe the pan flute summons a soul that heals an area for x amount of time or something, Pleasant Pastorale I think is great as a way to improve even more the soul collection, and I think it's great, just like I feel like it's a little over the top for the naughty side, but I think it's good though.

Affinity Perks

I have no idea what to make of Affinity's skill, so I'll put my feelings out there so the developers can try to find a solution, aside from the obvious point that it feels bad to be locked into an item and not. be useful until you get a time consuming item, I think they feel bad even though you can have reverberation and activate the effects twice, instead of once, it feels bad, I feel like even if they are powerful, I don't feel them So powerful, like every time I hit with the Shadow Reaper, or block a hit with the Brightshade armor, I don't feel as powerful as I should, because those are powerful things, but yeah, those perks need something, I don't know what.

 

 

 

[Echsrick]

i mean, some of his stuff still feel like kind of filler just to block the way to usefull stuff, and the locks needing 5 points to unlock and the things before realy dont give alot of room for freedom

[Ezbot0098]

I feel like the Nice inclination has a major flaw that hurts the concept of it being a "support role" side of the skill tree. It punishes consuming souls as a food source causing you to consume more food from others. Sure restoring sanity is also easier with dropping souls but it puts Wortox in a state of fluctuating sanity. I understand why the Nice inclination has a downside narratively, but seems a tad unfair that the Naughty inclination doesn't have a downside at all making it feel as if they want you to lean away from being nice.

[Dingle]

Wait, you can't get Soul decoy explosion for 3 points.

You cant get Lifegiver III for 3 points either.

Are you actually playing the beta?

[Dingle]

2 hours ago, Jazzuo said:

Okay, basically tittle, first i wanna focus in what i think is actually good with the skill tree, and what i think put on the table interesting decision to deal while playing wortox.

 

Either way if you focus in one side you have the option to gain some power from the other side for 3 insight points

This is obvious when you want to focus on the Naughty side and can still get Lifebringer III for 3 insight points and have a good option to heal the entire team for little to no investment, this also happens with the Nice side, when you can invest 3 insight points in the Naughty side to get Soul Decay III and get some AoE damage to farm souls more easily without having to invest too much on the naughty side. (I'm guessing you'll get the Soul Jars here with the Knabsack and the Lifted Spirits with 

 

11 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

Probably not.

Amazing. I guess I should check from now on, when I see a post that makes no sense.

"Have you played the beta?"

And sometimes after that: "Have you even played the character?"

[GimplyGoose]

The extra sanity cost of Wortox-s soul eating hardly matters. You just chug like 6 souls when you are hungry then kill a couple nightmare creatures and get your sanity back. If you get lucky and spawn 2 terrorbeaks you will probably end up with more sanity than you started with.

[Kwaik]

The affinity skills feel awful 

 

Being forced to use a specific non character item and having it tied to a short window with the jump absolutely sucks

 

And it feels 100000 times worse doing it on a controller. 

The affinity skills have been pretty defining/fun for many characters. Wortoxs just stink and feel bad. I don't even care about them being buffed to be stronger. Make them more accessible, fun, controller friendly, and get rid of these horrible restrictions. 

 

Hell make the shadow one just make an aoe circle around you when you soul hop  as long as you are wearing a piece of shadow tiered gear. 

Similar effect, exponentially easier to use, more customizable and player friendly 

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, GimplyGoose said:

The extra sanity cost of Wortox-s soul eating hardly matters. You just chug like 6 souls when you are hungry then kill a couple nightmare creatures and get your sanity back. If you get lucky and spawn 2 terrorbeaks you will probably end up with more sanity than you started with.

Its also really no different than pre beta or Neutral. Eat 1 soul, drop 2 for a net 0. Or chug to full, fight nightmares like you said, drop some souls to top off.

Nice lets you have a lot of control over your sanity, in practice. Its less apparent on paper, like if you haven't played the beta and/or never played Wortox.

[Peasant]

Maybe the guy who designed his skilltree is more creative than people who disigned the other two

[OMEGASCRUFF]

6 hours ago, Jazzuo said:

The Soul jars and Knabsack are as good as Lifted spirits and Reverberation

Why do I say this? Well, because the soul jars are an interesting way to solve the problem that wortox had for a long time, it's boring to collect souls every time you ran out of souls, tbh bees are not so interesting in a fight, and I understand that, they are bees in the end, but to do the same fight every time, is sooooo boring, especially against the bees, yes I guess the problem has not like totally stop, but now you can save souls, which means this is less repetitive and it feels good tbh.

Halt. I hate the Soul Jar with every fiber of my being. It still blows my mind that we went from a limit of 20 to 600 instantly without working upwards first to seek balance.

You never had to collect Souls. You had to change your habits and routine. NOW you collect Souls, the same way Willow has to deal with Embers. This was never a good character for anyone opposed to regular combat. I did not ever run out of Souls on a 20 Soul limit, literally ever.

If you felt compelled to catch a stack of Bees without a deliberate purpose in mind (such as supporting a Wormwood in an initial full ruins clear), you had a skill issue or too much downtime on a character whose greatest asset to the team is efficiency. This strategy was never aligned with this character and functioned well as an opportunity cost to bypassing the Soul limit. It never reached the same extent for players (who normally held a single stack, 40 Souls) as the Soul Jars do (of which people normally hold at least 3, 160-∞ Souls with Overwhelming Greed + increased Soul efficiency through several skills.)

I'm really tired of people pretending Bees and Soul Jars handle the issue the same way. They don't. Souls aren't a factor during gameplay anymore. They're just another currency you have to grind, not resource to manage.

[readkey]

4 hours ago, Kwaik said:

The affinity skills feel awful 

 

Being forced to use a specific non character item and having it tied to a short window with the jump absolutely sucks

 

And it feels 100000 times worse doing it on a controller. 

The affinity skills have been pretty defining/fun for many characters. Wortoxs just stink and feel bad. I don't even care about them being buffed to be stronger. Make them more accessible, fun, controller friendly, and get rid of these horrible restrictions. 

 

Hell make the shadow one just make an aoe circle around you when you soul hop  as long as you are wearing a piece of shadow tiered gear. 

Similar effect, exponentially easier to use, more customizable and player friendly 

Maybe he is not meant to have affinity like the lore. I find his nice/naughty choice much more interesting than the affinity one 

[Kwaik]

2 hours ago, readkey said:

Maybe he is not meant to have affinity like the lore. I find his nice/naughty choice much more interesting than the affinity one 

The affinity is a core game mechanic 

And the naughty/nice mechanic is cute in practice but pretty insignificant 

[readkey]

1 hour ago, Kwaik said:

The affinity is a core game mechanic 

And the naughty/nice mechanic is cute in practice but pretty insignificant 

I don’t know, I don’t always use affinity on some of the characters, Wolfgang included.

I feel like being neutral should be a thing, especially in the lore, as both sides (Wagstaff and Charlie) seem pretty fishy. 

[Kwaik]

10 hours ago, readkey said:

I don’t know, I don’t always use affinity on some of the characters, Wolfgang included.

I feel like being neutral should be a thing, especially in the lore, as both sides (Wagstaff and Charlie) seem pretty fishy. 

Wolfgangs affinity is boring, but it's incredibly powerful 

[readkey]

5 hours ago, Kwaik said:

Wolfgangs affinity is boring, but it's incredibly powerful 

And yet I don’t always use it because it is not always necessary. 
 

Honestly I don’t see affinity is everything. Obviously there are someone like Winona or Willow who get a lot of new toys in their affinity, but there are also characters like Wrigfrid and Woodie where their power lies more in their regular skills than their affinity. 

[Kwaik]

36 minutes ago, readkey said:

And yet I don’t always use it because it is not always necessary. 
 

Honestly I don’t see affinity is everything. Obviously there are someone like Winona or Willow who get a lot of new toys in their affinity, but there are also characters like Wrigfrid and Woodie where their power lies more in their regular skills than their affinity. 

Woodie was one of the first batch before Klei found their groove, so it's acceptable for his to suck a little 

 

Wigfrids is absolutely a letdown (but her spear is one of the best additions to any skill tree period ), however hers is incredibly powerful as it potentially can buff 6 players. 

[Dingle]

11 minutes ago, Kwaik said:

Woodie was one of the first batch before Klei found their groove, so it's acceptable for his to suck a little 

 

Wigfrids is absolutely a letdown (but her spear is one of the best additions to any skill tree period ), however hers is incredibly powerful as it potentially can buff 6 players. 

Woodie shadow affinity is incredible so ???????????????¿???? What

Wigfrid affinity song: she can only run 3 songs at once

So

Affinity song never even gets used

6 x 0 (never gets made) = i duno bad at math

[readkey]

6 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Woodie shadow affinity is incredible so ???????????????¿???? What

Wigfrid affinity song: she can only run 3 songs at once

So

Affinity song never even gets used

6 x 0 (never gets made) = i duno bad at math

Woodie’s affinity is decent but most of his power budget comes from the buffs of his wereforms, and his new ability to summon tree guards. He can function  well with or without the affinity.
 

Especially when his affinity is simply removing one of his downside which you can, and should, avoid with preparations. This is definitely not the same as Willow who gets a flamethrower or Winona who gets a teleport station. 

54 minutes ago, Kwaik said:

Woodie was one of the first batch before Klei found their groove, so it's acceptable for his to suck a little 

 

Wigfrids is absolutely a letdown (but her spear is one of the best additions to any skill tree period ), however hers is incredibly powerful as it potentially can buff 6 players. 

I don’t think that’s a good argument , because Wormwood’s skill tree came in the same patch as Woodie’s, and Wormwood’s power budget leans quite a lot to the affinity. 
 

 

[Kwaik]

30 minutes ago, readkey said:

Woodie’s affinity is decent but most of his power budget comes from the buffs of his wereforms, and his new ability to summon tree guards. He can function  well with or without the affinity.
 

Especially when his affinity is simply removing one of his downside which you can, and should, avoid with preparations. This is definitely not the same as Willow who gets a flamethrower or Winona who gets a teleport station. 

I don’t think that’s a good argument , because Wormwood’s skill tree came in the same patch as Woodie’s, and Wormwood’s power budget leans quite a lot to the affinity. 
 

 

 

Wormwood skill tree was pretty bad when it launched, and has to get overhauled 

 

IIRC wormwoods skill tree saw the biggest changes after launching 

[Dingle]

4 minutes ago, Kwaik said:

 

Wormwood skill tree was pretty bad when it launched, and has to get overhauled 

 

IIRC wormwoods skill tree saw the biggest changes after launching 

It got like 3 overhauls

[readkey]

2 minutes ago, Kwaik said:

 

Wormwood skill tree was pretty bad when it launched, and has to get overhauled 

 

IIRC wormwoods skill tree saw the biggest changes after launching 

It doesn’t matter cause the allocation of the power in his skill tree was fundamentally unchanged. He was having 5-6 points in affinity with all different new skills from the very beginning. 

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

2024年12月4日上午10点58分，YXukun说：

也许设计他的技能树的人比设计其他两个树的人更有创意

I also think