Webber major rework ideas + perks

[Mortalbane]

Why rework?
Webber seems like an interesting character with unique gameplay, but his pick rate is miserable on public servers. I think it's because of several reasons.
He struggles with his identity - does he want to be a loner, living among spiders, or does he want to be with the team and decorate his nests?
Decorated nests are a spider timebomb on your base, which explodes with one wrong move. No one likes to have Webber as a neighbor.
He easily amasses spider army and decimates everything on the map, but when it comes to bosses with AoE... Well, here Webber suddenly becomes useless.
So i suggest nerfing his "lag army", while making its management easier, and buffing the boy himself.

Also, as i said in my Wilson's rework, i don't understand why a spider and a child can grow a silk beard. It makes no sense, and Webber surely is not in any need of silk.
And finally, why spiders can be befriended with meat? I mean, i understand why Klei did that, but let's remember that spiders of the Constant have tiny brain, they eat each other's meat, so their logic hardly includes the "you give me meat - i'll be your friend" scheme. They obey their queens only, and potentially can attack each other, but not cuz some spiderboy throws them meat and tells them to.


Lore
I really don't like that according to Klei Webber was created when a spider swallowed a boy's head. That would mean that the resulting creature would have no mouth - child's mouth is covered by the spider, and spider's mouth is around the child's neck. Its eyes would look down, not forward, and so on. Trying to imagine this creature's anatomy always gives me the irritating feeling of how bad this idea was. Don't tell me that Webber is the Indigestible, lalala i'm not listening.

In his animated short it looked more like a Peter Parker-style transformation, which i prefer much better. So, to me Webber is a fusion of two entities. They are one, yet they are not.
So, the Spider, whose brain is now the size of a child’s brain (which is much bigger than it used to be), has grown smarter and evolved. Now, according to Constant's spiders fierce and cannibal nature, he wants to consume, evolve further, climb to the top of the hierarchy and rival the queens.
The Child, while somewhat fascinated by his new nature, is kind, misses mommy and daddy, and does not like that his new instincts are telling him to eat his new little spider brothers.


Base kit
- switcherdoodles, decorating kits, healing glop, crafting spider eggs - removed
- Webber no longer can befriend spiders with meat
- Webber isn't growing silk beards anymore
- if Webber attacks a spider, only that spider becomes hostile
- attacking a den or a queen will make only the related spiders hostile
- Webber suffers from the Split Sanity
- spiders killed directly by Webber have a chance to drop their respective Gene Strain


Split Sanity
Webber's sanity is not only quite low, but is also split in two parts.

While at 50-100% sanity, Webber is in his Child state. His appearance is a bit more cute and fluffy, he has less or no spider legs growing out of his head, maybe less extra eyes too.
He has small sanity regeneration aura (but not for himself) and his favorite food is ice cream. Monster meat doesn't damage his health, but eating raw monster meat damages his sanity (by half of the usual).

When his sanity gets below 50%, Webber lets out the signature spider scream, and goes into the Spider state. His appearance becomes more sharp and aggressive, his face gets angrier, and spider legs sprout from his head.
While in this state, Webber gains negative sanity aura like a monster, moves and attacks a little faster and deals a little more damage. His favorite food is raw monster meat, so it has no negative effects and restores more hunger.

All of Webber's current quotes belong to his Child state. The Spider usually describes things in one word - “Danger”, “Food”, "Hungry", etc. But sometimes he gives whole phrases, which are creepy, filled with inhuman logic and violence.


Evolve, adapt, overcome
In nature it's common for insects to change their form entirely, and in some cases it is defined by the food that they eat. Spiders don't have any of that, but who cares - we're here for the cool stuff, not for a biology class.
Any spider killed directly by Webber has a chance of dropping a special gland (the model and icon can be taken from switcherdoodles).
It's hard to come up with a name for such a gland, so let it be a Gene Strain.

When Webber eats such a gland, and then sleeps in a spider den, he will emerge transformed into the respective form, changing appearance and gaining new features.
Only the last eaten gland matters, and it is "saved" indefinitely, until you sleep in a den.
If you sleep in a den while in any non-default form, you will wake up in the default form.
Each form is slightly different, depending on whether you are in a Child or Spider state.

Warrior form
Child Webber moves faster, attacks stronger, has better stats, and can perform a leap attack with increased damage.
Spider Webber looks more aggressive and has extra legs growing out of his head, all of the above bonuses are stronger.

Nurse form
Spider Webber looks cuter and less aggressive, his negative sanity aura is gone, and he can perform an AoE healing ability.
Child Webber looks extremely cute, all of the above bonuses are stronger, and his sanity aura is stronger. This is the only form where Child state is better.

Cave spider form
Child Webber gains the ability to hide in the shell and tank enemies. His stats get higher, but damage and attack speed are lowered.
Spider Webber is a little better in every way.

Spitter form
Child Webber now has a ranged attack with multiple charges, which slowly regenerate over time.
Spider Webber has more charges, they restore a bit faster, and he also moves faster.

Dangler form
I think that danglers should be reworked from a warrior reskin into web-shooting spiders
Also i suggest removing the Wickerbottom's spider book and forgetting it ever existed
Child Webber in this form gains the ability to shoot webs, entangling the enemy and making it unable to perform any actions for some time. Attacking the enemy breaks the effect. Also Webber can place Web Mines, which create a temporary web zones on the floor, slowing anything inside.
Spider Webber keeps mobs entangled longer, and breaking the web now requires a few hits. Web mines AoE is bigger, and slow is stronger.

Shatter spider form
Child Webber in this form has a ranged AoE attack, similar to the lunar spiders. It has a cooldown.
Spider Webber enjoys reduced cooldown and increased AoE and damage.

Strider form
Child Webber in this form can walk on water at increased speed.
Spider Webber runs faster on land and even faster on water.


Spider King form
This one is very special.
Can be evolved into after eating the Gene Strain dropped by a spider queen.

Child Webber’s appearance changes to resemble a spider queen, spider legs growing from his head now point upwards, resembling a crown. His stats increase, but hunger drain also increases.
Spider Webber has even better stats, and as always, he looks more agressive.

This form grants the ability to make Cocoons and craft Spider nest and its upgrades. He can now also craft a Web Whistle.

Cocoon - King Webber plants a cocoon on the ground, it hatches in a few moments, and releases 3 Lesser Spiders loyal to Webber. Lesser Spiders are the same as regular spiders, but smaller, they move and attack faster, but deal less damage. This ability has a cooldown and can store several charges.

Spider Nest - only one per Webber player. The Nest starts at level 1, but is bigger and looks cooler than the lvl 1 den.
It houses 2 regular spiders per level, they are loyal to Webber, and never attack anything unless told to, even if they are attacked. They don't patrol the area in the evening and at night. Killed spiders respawn in the Nest each morning.
Nest can be upgraded with different resources, like building Merm King palace or Crab Hermit home. Nest levels 2 and 3 can be reached only if Webber is in the King form - if the Nest is level 2 or 3, and Webber switches form - it downgrades to level 1 and drops all upgrades.

Nest upgrades are crafted from the Gene Strains (but there is no queen upgrade). Can be applied to the nest, one per nest level. Changes the 2 respective spiders to become the ones corresponding to the upgrade. Does not change the existing spiders - when they are killed and respawn, they will be of the new type.

Web whistle - item similar to the Codex Umbra, which allows Webber to make his loyal spiders emerge from the nest, attack or stop attacking a target, guard an area or to retreat to the nest. This makes controlling the spiders in combat possible, and now they might not die to AoE, if you move them away in time.


About skins
Currently there is only Warrior Spider skin to interfere with the ideas above. But i think if Klei would implement my concept, they would find a way around this.
For example, let the player decide, which skin replaces which spider form. This will make some players want to buy all the skins. You are welcome, Klei!


Skill tree

Spider mount
Beefalo needs a spider skin, which could resemble the Spider Monkeys from Hamlet.
Alternatively, Webber can be restricted from taming a beefalo, and instead have these or similar skills somewhere in the tree:
On all eights - a skill from our monkey guy Wilbur from Shipwrecked. After a few moments of running, Webber sprouts spider legs and goes on all eights, increasing his move speed.
Spider sack - a skill for the King form. Webber learns to craft a Spider Sack, a back pack slot item with little storage space. When you are wearing it and command spiders to come to you, they will "jump inside", but they won't occupy any slots, they will just be stored in your extradimensional butt pocket. Can hold all your spiders at once.
Another alternative is to make a Nest upgrade out of the Queen Gene Strain. It would be applied as an extra upgrade, and will summon an elegant and fast Royal Spiderhorse xD


Evolution branch
This branch focuses on the spider forms, except King form.
Perks buff all forms in general, or give individual form a new skill or upgrade existing.
There could be perks that increase unarmed damage and improve its animation, so that you feel like a true spider. But not too much, cause you save resources and inventory space.

Reign supreme branch
This branch is all about the King form and your spider army.
Perks increase the number of spiders per Nest level, their effectiveness, allow you to buff them in combat in various ways.
As said above, your spiders will not attack anything unless told to, but you may learn to create consumable Pheromone Glands for other players, which make any spiders neutral to them for some time, and aggro only in the same way in which regular spiders aggro on you. (reminder - only the attacked regular spider becomes hostile, and only the related spiders become hostile upon attacking a den or a queen)
Perk that makes your spiders bring meat to you, instead of eating it.
Also there could be perks for the Nest, for example adding some storage slots to it per nest level, increasing the sleep effectiveness, and so on.
There can be a perk that allows you to stay in your King form after sleeping, but it means that you will never be able to transform into your default form again. It can be called "No turning back". Who needs that default form anyway.

Affinity perks
Coming up

[Mortalbane]

I've asked AI to draw me a spiderhorse

 

[Dr.Webber]

Interesting you have cool ideas and I definitely think they should play more in to the duel nature of of Webber and the fact he’s a monster and they should do something better then the decorating kit but  don’t think they should do a whole overhaul and if he doesn’t have a beard he should have a other way to produce silk other then shaving dens and I think when the spider gif smarter he learned a better way to continue his species and maybe even some compassion or the spider didn’t get smarter and the boy became the dominant personality or they had to learn to work together and co exist to survive and maybe eventually grew a friendship and I think what happens wale befriending spiders is something similar to what happened when we domesticated wolves  where  we gave them meat and they released “they give us meat I’m going to stay near them to get more meat “ and eventually protected us

maybe have a more friendly way of getting gene glands for the boy half and not have such a semantic difference between boy and spider sides 

maybe something more like this 

 

[Mortalbane]

3 hours ago, Dr.Webber said:

they had to learn to work together and co exist to survive and maybe eventually grew a friendship

Current Webber seems to be what you suggest, cuz he decorates dens, has no split sanity and often says "We", as if he is one with the Spider. And i wanted to explore his earlier state.
I've been thinking about silk farms and exploring friendly spiders more, but nah. Spiders are loners and can't be tamed like animals, only few species can be trained, and to a very limited extend. Spiders of the Constant have queens and live together, like ants, which i think is more than enough for mechanics of controlling them. Also they are very aggressive and they don't mind eating each other.
My Webber can basically kill spiders for free due to the reworked aggro mechanic. In the King form you can still cause "civil wars" as usual. So you still will have all the silk that you want, and still don't need a beard.

[Dr.Webber]

On 7/29/2023 at 4:03 AM, Mortalbane said:

Current Webber seems to be what you suggest, cuz he decorates dens, has no split sanity and often says "We", as if he is one with the Spider. And i wanted to explore his earlier state.
I've been thinking about silk farms and exploring friendly spiders more, but nah. Spiders are loners and can't be tamed like animals, only few species can be trained, and to a very limited extend. Spiders of the Constant have queens and live together, like ants, which i think is more than enough for mechanics of controlling them. Also they are very aggressive and they don't mind eating each other.
My Webber can basically kill spiders for free due to the reworked aggro mechanic. In the King form you can still cause "civil wars" as usual. So you still will have all the silk that you want, and still don't need a beard.

I meant to create silk on his own maybe through a craft that sacrifices health or some sort of silk bar or just passively over time and what about spiders make you think there loners aggressive yes attacking each other no I don’t remember seeing them do that maybe eating there meat yes not attacking unless provoked or ordered and if they are like ants there the colony merging kind based on the queens gathering set pease and the skins would have to be changed  for the boy and I spider side and for the base skins for the switch don’t get me wrong I like the idea  Of be coming a spider king but based on the triumphant/moonbound skins  we should keep that for affinity 

[Mortalbane]

It would be much easier to understand you, if you'd write dividing your speech into sentences =)
Spiders are loners in nature, and they don't have queens. In the game they attack each other if you befriend them and tell them to do it.
Yeah, skins might need to be changed. I doubt Klei will make any of the big character changes that i suggest, but if they do, i think they would figure out all the details.

[Dr.Webber]

But I’m  talking about in game and i mentioned if ordered oh and I forgot maybe make an middle form that i the original to better fit the short and i know  there would be some  recontextualizing  of what exactly Webber is but the reworks are suppose to make the characters more like themselves it seems like you’re making a new character based on peases of what Webber is and filling in the blanks it should at least fit the character compendium don’t get me wrong most of your ideas are a great way to have better control over his spiders and play in to his existence as a monster and the spit sanity thing is a cool mechanic and with a few tweaks it would be cool way t play in to him duel nature that little bit  doesn’t fit the character at all and with a few tweaks these ideas could be glorious 

[Dr.Webber]

By the way when are the affinity perks coming up

[Mortalbane]

36 minutes ago, Dr.Webber said:

By the way when are the affinity perks coming up

It's kinda hard to come up with good Shadow and Moon ideas for Webber, without sliding into the trivial "+ dmg vs planar".
I have some ideas, but i'm hoping to see the new content of the current add-on. Hoping for some new ink blight mutation of the cave mobs, cuz that is what i'm thinking for the Shadow affinity. And acid attacks.
Lunar ideas that i have now don't feel as good as the ones that i've listed, hope to see some new lunar content.

[Dr.Webber]

What about making new kind of spiders similar to the triumphant skin or moonbound skin but without the queen looking stuff