Expression upgrade bathroom scuffle

[Neotuck]

30 minutes ago, goboking said:

I know.  @Miravlix is proposing that the solution to the problem (all dupes trying to use the bathroom at the same time) is to build more bathrooms, ensuring that every dupe has somewhere to go when it's time for the bathroom scuffle.  I'm questioning whether or not this is the solution we need.  I personally don't find outhouse/lavatory spam an elegant solution to the problem.  I've said in other topics that the best solution, in my opinion, is to allow us to individualize each dupe's schedule so we can avoid the bathroom scuffle in the first place.

sounds like @abud's idea

[vonVile]

There's a bug where Dupes won't stop using equipment to use Lavatories causing them to pee, but will go to the restroom more often with Outhouses available. Take those Outhouses away and Dupes release all over the base like crazy.

Also Dupes prefer Outhouses over Lavatories. I've seen a Dupe bypass a Lavatory to go to an Outhouse. The priorities need to be switched that Lavatories are dominate in use over Outhouses.

36 minutes ago, goboking said:

I know.  @Miravlix is proposing that the solution to the problem (all dupes trying to use the bathroom at the same time) is to build more bathrooms, ensuring that every dupe has somewhere to go when it's time for the bathroom scuffle.  I'm questioning whether or not this is the solution we need.  I personally don't find outhouse/lavatory spam an elegant solution to the problem.  I've said in other topics that the best solution, in my opinion, is to allow us to individualize each dupe's schedule so we can avoid the bathroom scuffle in the first place.

It doesn't matter if Dupes have there own schedule. There's a bug where Dupe refuse to use Lavatories and would rather hold it until they release. I currently have a base where each Dupe has a personal bathroom and there are times where they will ignore them and prefer Outhouses that are farther way.

[KittenIsAGeek]

I haven't experienced any of these issues.  I've got two bathrooms at opposite sides of the base. Each has two lavatories and a shower.  With 10 dupes, I haven't had a problem.

[Neotuck]

2 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

I haven't experienced any of these issues.  I've got two bathrooms at opposite sides of the base. Each has two lavatories and a shower.  With 10 dupes, I haven't had a problem.

which version are you playing?

[Carnis]

17 hours ago, abud said:

I prefer using shared toilets like before EU. But if Klei insists on current scheduling limitation, then it means we just to adapt like your solution with assigned toilets. Actually, I even prefer mess hall to be assigned to public

 

Honestly, I just playing EU for a few hours. Loading a saved game from pre-EU is a big hassle. Not to mention huge lag for a big colony, but many changes (like needs way more toilets) sometimes has space problems. There is always dupe wetting their pants on my colony, because 2 toilets for 16 dupes

 

I will back to EU after 1-2 updates, I hope they refine these schedule problem in few days. At least I want to assign time slot so they can break in turns.

I used 2 toilet per 30. 2/16 not enough?

[abud]

45 minutes ago, Carnis said:

I used 2 toilet per 30. 2/16 not enough?

Not enough, we are talking about EU, right? That break time limit, and they running back home from faraway lands... just to take turns 16 dupes for 2 toilets.

[Carnis]

Cu. Just wondering how many More to build.

[Yannick Vachon]

In Expression Upgrade, I have 2 bathrooms, one with 2 lavatories and one with 4 outhouses (I am converting them right now). And if the outhouses all become unusable at the same time, I will have messes everywhere. And I have 24 duplicants.

With lavatories, it help a lot since there are faster and never blocked, for as long as the pipes have space to receive the polluted water. For outhouses, we must be really careful.

[Miravlix]

13 hours ago, goboking said:

Is it really a challenge though?  Early game, sure, the outhouses have to be cleaned and supplied and that requires careful management.  But mid to late game I don't think slapping down a few extra lavatories and connecting them to your plumbing system is all that high a hurdle to clear.

You have to design the pipes to handle the shower/lavatory use.

[suicide commando]

I think it would be awesome if we could assign dupes to 'shifts'. So while one group of dupes is at work, another group is having their evening leisure time and then going to bed, while say a third group is getting up and having breakfast.

This way, you could have dupes working all throughout the cycle, each during a different part of the day. Some work the nightshift, Some work during the morning, and others during they afternoon.
 

[Denisetwin]

On 7/14/2018 at 12:09 PM, Neotuck said:

On that note it would be both funny and realistic if exosuit docks had a liquid pipe out for removing PW from suits that dupes had peed in

OOOOO please put this in suggestion forum, this is a great idea and makes "sense" real world!!  

[QuantumPion]

I think it would make more sense if instead of having one mandatory long break, there were 2 or 3 break periods per day and dupes pick one of them per day depending on proximity, job, and need. I've had dupes starve to death because there was no food available at night and they couldn't make it all the way to the next night to eat, which is dumb.

[Lilalaunekuh]

4 hours ago, suicide commando said:

I think it would be awesome if we could assign dupes to 'shifts'. So while one group of dupes is at work, another group is having their evening leisure time and then going to bed, while say a third group is getting up and having breakfast.

This way, you could have dupes working all throughout the cycle, each during a different part of the day. Some work the nightshift, Some work during the morning, and others during they afternoon.

Had some similar thoughts about different "shifts".

- Giving each dupe the possibility to have an own schedule seems like an overkill. (Without a great advantage)

- Creating different "shifts" seems like a good solution, but I would suggest limiting the number of different shifts

(Maybe just 3 shifts which you are able to customize: (default: day / night / "sick duplicants"))

 

=> There is no real benefit for the gameplay experience if we allow more different shifts

(The only reason you would want more than one shift is if you want to maximize the efficiency of some infrastructure. But we would only need 2 customizable shifts to achiev 100% uptime.)

[abud]

43 minutes ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

Giving each dupe the possibility to have an own schedule seems like an overkill. (Without a great advantage)

Hmm, in rimworld it is part of core management. I don't think UI and selection like that is overkill. it is necessary. But it is devs choice if they want their game to be less customizable (to aim for younger target audience for example).

[beowulf2010]

2 hours ago, abud said:

Hmm, in rimworld it is part of core management. I don't think UI and selection like that is overkill. it is necessary. But it is devs choice if they want their game to be less customizable (to aim for younger target audience for example).

Like Lilalaunekuh said, I also see no reason or advantage to customizing each individual dupe's schedule. Assigning dupes to 3 or 4 customized shifts is exactly what I want.

Do you actually have a reason for wanting individual dupe schedules that isn't "Rimworld does it" or added customization for complexity's sake? 

Personally, if I want this level of control over an individual dupe, I'd go play Terraria. 

[Giltirn]

3 hours ago, beowulf2010 said:

Personally, if I want this level of control over an individual dupe, I'd go play Terraria. 

You don't have to use it. I have over 300 hours in Rimworld and have never used the schedule tab, outfits tab or the restrictions tab (other than for a global forbid on social drug use).

[DyingCrow]

For smaller colonies of less then 20, building individual bedrooms with a toilet and sink, with door permissions, is not too hard. They will go use the toilet first, then eat, then talk crap about the overseer.

Or you can time the food storage in a way where they can only grab food after they all had enough time to use the common toilets and/or showers. They will drool a bit, but wont die.

[beowulf2010]

11 hours ago, Giltirn said:

You don't have to use it. I have over 300 hours in Rimworld and have never used the schedule tab, outfits tab or the restrictions tab (other than for a global forbid on social drug use).

I never said I wouldn't use it. I just said that I see absolutely no advantage to having individual schedules over a set number (3 or 4) of shifts. 

All I see is a possible feature that will not be used much outside of power gamers that is an added layer of complexity purely for complexity's sake. 

[goboking]

21 hours ago, beowulf2010 said:

Do you actually have a reason for wanting individual dupe schedules that isn't "Rimworld does it" or added customization for complexity's sake?

Yes.

[beowulf2010]

3 hours ago, goboking said:

Yes.

In the interest of actual discussion, you might consider sharing the reason(s) with the rest of us. 

[goboking]

16 hours ago, beowulf2010 said:

In the interest of actual discussion, you might consider sharing the reason(s) with the rest of us. 

I might want to schedule longer breaks and shorter work shifts for my highly specialized researchers, doctors, and mechatronic engineers to accommodate their demand for a higher Quality of Life.  I might want to do the opposite for my low-skill laborers who dig and build all day long.  I might want to organize shifts that ensure specific buildings are manned around the clock.  I might want my cooks to awaken and shower before everyone else so they can have the day's meals prepared so the those working the day and night shifts can all enjoy a meal together before the former head to the bed and the latter get to work.  And I might want to do this while spreading leisure and shower breaks throughout the day to ensure my bathroom and rec facilities don't get overrun.  A few inflexible shifts might not afford me the level of control needed to do any of this.

You might deem this to be "added complexity for complexity's sake", but I'm the kind of player who wants to solve problems through efficient use of resources, not by throwing more resources at a problem.  Time, of course, is a resource and I'd like to be able to manage it with the same degree of finesse I manage my power consumption, my oxygen production, and my water usage.  And for the record, I've never played Rimworld.

[Mariilyn]

I went from 2 lavatories for 21 dupes to 5 lavatories for 24. The ratio is not so bad. Dropped food is not a big deal, but I'm looking forward for when it will be fixed and for schedule management. We should not have to build a lavatory for each dupe, that would take too much space, but I would not mind an added QoL modifier for having a private bathroom.

3 hours ago, goboking said:

I might want to

It seams feasible with a couple of customised work shifts to which dupes are assigned. Maybe allow to set up as much work shifts as we need. But I do not want to have to set up and tweak every single dupe's schedule individually with a "copy setting" feature (don't know if it makes sense).

[Lilalaunekuh]

5 hours ago, goboking said:

You might deem this to be "added complexity for complexity's sake", but I'm the kind of player who wants to solve problems through efficient use of resources, not by throwing more resources at a problem. I might want to do the opposite for my low-skill laborers who dig and build all day long.

First I want to say thank you for contributing, goboking

It´s not unnecassary added complexity and I have the same mindset when it comes to resource(/time) management.

So let´s break it down:

1.

5 hours ago, goboking said:

I might want to schedule longer breaks and shorter work shifts for my highly specialized researchers, doctors, and mechatronic engineers to accommodate their demand for a higher Quality of Life.

Longer breaks don´t have any positive effect. (Just if your traveltime would result in not enough time to use all recreational buildings)

=> Seems good on paper but no real ingame benefit

 

2.

5 hours ago, goboking said:

I might want to organize shifts that ensure specific buildings are manned around the clock.

To ensure a 100% uptime for any building you just need 2 duplicants with different shifts.

=> Yeah more shifts make it much easier to achieve an optimal uptime, but it adds no additional possibilities.

(Just a bit more tedious to setup priorities based on the buildings)

 

3.

5 hours ago, goboking said:

I might want my cooks to awaken and shower before everyone else so they can have the day's meals prepared so the those working the day and night shifts can all enjoy a meal together before the former head to the bed and the latter get to work.

Let´s assume we have 2 shifts with the same break time, so everone would enjoy their meal together.

("Shift A" eat´s before sleeping and "Shift B" before working)

=> The problem here isn´t the number of shifts, it´s our inability to seperate showering and eating

(We cant´t ensure an specific order like: "shower(break) -> cook(work)  -> eat(break)". Dupes could shower than eat or do it in reverse )

But even if we would be able to ensure a strict order, how would that result in some efficiency gain ?

 

4.

5 hours ago, goboking said:

  And I might want to do this while spreading leisure and shower breaks throughout the day to ensure my bathroom and rec facilities don't get overrun.

Here comes the only problem (I can see right now) with a limited number of shifts:

We can´t ensure 100% uptime for showers/toilets and I think it´s no a needed feature to achieve this.

(A dupe "blocks" a shower the moment he finishes his job and starts walking to the shower, so we are forced to build more bathroom capacity anways. Dupes will use the bathroom in their worktime, if the had no chance to do it in their break.

=> If you got at least 2 shifts to prevent the downtime at night your able to use your bathroom with full efficiency)

 

[goboking]

@Lilalaunekuhreasonable responses, but I'm still an advocate for player options.  Back when the 1-5* priority system was introduced I argued that those who liked 1-5 could still continue using just 5 priority settings in a 1-9 system, while those who want 9 settings can't do so in a 1-5 system.  I'll argue likewise with schedules; if I want to create three schedules then I'm out of luck if the game limits me to just two.  Conversely, someone who only wants two schedules will be able to use just two schedules even if the game allows us to use an infinite number of them.

 

38 minutes ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

=> The problem here isn´t the number of shifts, it´s our inability to seperate showering and eating

I'm operating under the presumption that we'll be able to do so by the time the EU goes live.  I could easily be wrong on this though.

[Lilalaunekuh]

1 minute ago, goboking said:

I'm still an advocate for player options

Me too. So if there is at least one case where I can´t achieve a beneficial behavior without personal schedules I will start asking for personal schedules^^ (Even if I will not use that "new feature"^^)

 

6 minutes ago, goboking said:

Back when the 1-5* priority system was introduced I argued that those who liked 1-5 could still continue using just 5 priority settings in a 1-9 system, while those who want 9 settings can't do so in a 1-5 system.

The strict priority (*) could achive something different than just  5 normal priority settings.

=> There are somethings you could just do using strict priorities and some you could only do if you got more priorities.

(Autosweeper can do more with the 9 equal priorities, but dupes could be better managed using strict priorities. But when jobs were introduced we could achieve most we could do using strict priorities)

 

13 minutes ago, goboking said:

I'll argue likewise with schedules; if I want to create three schedules then I'm out of luck if the game limits me to just two.  Conversely, someone who only wants two schedules will be able to use just two schedules even if the game allows us to use an infinite number of them.

It´s no problem to have more schedules than you need but in my humble opinion it´s more challenging if we would be forced to think a bit more about how we schedule stuff.

(Everything under the assumption we could achieve the same with a fixed number of schedules)