Heat Management should be after Mark 2

[Neckcen]

22 hours ago, yoakenashi said:

With everyone having so much trouble with heat, I must have done something wrong. I'm at 550 cycles and use a few wheezeworts near hot items like my electric grills, have not used any AETNs, do not use the drip bug, and use just one thermo aquatuner. Base stays a nice 25°C. I think I'm surviving solely on the fact that polluted water has a specific heat of 6, while water is just 4.179 (love that fact!).

If you are not using any fixed temperature output (which I would classify as quirk), then please explain how. Especially how do you cool geyser water for farming.

17 hours ago, ImpalerWrG said:

It's seems to be just folks who want to continuously solidify the output of multiple metal volcanoes in real time who are complaining about heat dissipation.  This is a classic symptom in game development forums where the most elite power-gamer want envelope pushing content rather then content that's geared towards normal players.

I couldn't be further from "most elite power-gamer trying to cool multiple metal volcanoes", I haven't even found a volcano yet. Relying solely on the game's intended heat management (i.e. wheezeworts and AETN), I am struggling to cool more than 1kg/s of water for my farms. The only reason my base survives is that somehow dupes do not seem to mind washing themselves with 90° water.

[Pyrrus]

1 hour ago, Neckcen said:

Relying solely on the game's intended heat management (i.e. wheezeworts and AETN), I am struggling to cool more than 1kg/s of water for my farms. The only reason my base survives is that somehow dupes do not seem to mind washing themselves with 90° water.

 If you only rely on those then, yes, you'll have trouble if you are using a water crop. You can stay alive for a long time purely farming meal lice and then mushrooms. You can thermally insulate your base and/or farm with insulation tiles to buy more time.

To remove heat permanently you can build something like a polluted water boiler. As yoakenashi mentioned, because polluted water has a specific heat of 6 and water of 4.179, it takes much more energy to heat up the polluted water than cool down the water, which can be used as a permanent heat sink. And one can always use more clean water.

[yoakenashi]

7 hours ago, Neckcen said:

If you are not using any fixed temperature output (which I would classify as quirk), then please explain how. Especially how do you cool geyser water for farming.

Just like Pyrrus suggested, my duplicants are on an all mushroom diet, so I don't have to worry about cooling geyser water. All of my geyser water goes to my electrolyzers, which I suppose I do rely on the quirk that 90°C water produces 60°C oxygen.

But I do have a question, is the below implementation (down the middle of the screenshots) an instance of the drip bug? Edit: Answer: Yes If so, I have been using it without knowing it all this time - you can go ahead and call me a liar then! If not, I've used this to cool my base effectively, distributing thermo aquatuner chilled water to the base to absorb ambient heat.

Anyone know of a good reference to a topic or otherwise that describes the drip bug. If possible I'd like to avoid using bugs and exploits in the game. I'm a purist, haha.

Edit:

Turns out, yeah, my chilled water idea does use the drip bug as described by Saturnus below. Essentially those small puddles of water are acting like full tiles; ie, those small puddles should not be providing as much cooling as they are.

On 1/5/2018 at 10:53 AM, Saturnus said:

generally known heat deletion bug where a small amount of liquid counts the same as a full tile. So the few grams on top of the metal tiles cools all liquid tiles below it is in contact with as if it was a full tile of liquid on top. Since the grams on top is constantly being replaced that means you get an enormous amount of cooling.

Here's to learning!

On 2/14/2018 at 4:35 AM, Saturnus said:

I will say this though. People who think they are not using the heat bug or drip cooling in some way, think again, you are, you just don't know it.

[crypticorb]

21 hours ago, ImpalerWrG said:

It's seems to be just folks who want to continuously solidify the output of multiple metal volcanoes in real time who are complaining about heat dissipation.  This is a classic symptom in game development forums where the most elite power-gamer want envelope pushing content rather then content that's geared towards normal players.

You're correct on the point that end-game players can push developers in directions that are opposite of the original vision the game began with. However, heat management is hardly a problem only end-game players encounter.

Perhaps my first and third ideas posted above fall into that category. I still feel that there needs to be some means of USING heat, rather than just eliminating it. ONI is a (mostly) closed system, and nearly every byproduct is useful except for heat energy between the range of 125^oC and 300^oC. This specific range is too hot to move via pumps and too cold to run a steam turbine or refine oil.

I've seen numerous threads on the suggestions forum asking for farming wheezeworts, which is a step in the wrong direction. This method would simply lead to "How many wheezeworts can we fit into the room" problems, rather than pushing players to think.

I'm hoping that the new Radiant Pipes will provide the means of moving heat in that difficult range, but so far they seem non-functional.

[KittenIsAGeek]

On 4/20/2018 at 4:33 PM, Neckcen said:

As someone who picked the game and just went in blind, I have to say the way heat currently work is just not fun.

I failed at managing polluted water and ended up infecting all my duplicants, I started over and did better. Then they starved, then I asphyxiated them, ... but every time it was "my fault" for not building the right thing at the right time or not planning far enough ahead. Then my plants roasted, hmm what did I miss? oh the hydrofan? nope, doesn't help. Ice biome? kinda work for a while, then warms up.

Turns out I didn't miss anything: whilst there are dozen of ways to generate heat, there are no real way to deal with heat without relying on dubious quirks. Don't get me wrong, the contraptions some people came up with are amazing, but not really something you would stumble upon whilst experimenting in survival mode.

Heat is currently what hydrogen would be without the hydrogen generator: a byproduct which can't be consumed and ends up slowly ruining your game.

As for a suggestion, I agree with crypticorb: there should be a way to use heat as a resource. Alternatively the world should tend toward absolute zero making heat a necessity.

I don't see the change in heat capacity due to a phase change of matter a quirk.  This is a factor in the real world: Ice is 2.108 kJ/kgK, water is 4.187 kJ/kgK, steam is 1.996kJ/kgK.  Also, a fixed-temperature output is also some-what reasonable. Many real-world machines operate best within a given temperature range.  Clearly ONI technology has some differences from the real world, but lets take the water sieve as an example.  In the real world, flow rates for reverse osmosis are usually based at 25c.  However, you get a flow rate improvement as the temperature increases.  Perhaps in the ONI world their best rates are at 40c.  From the tables I could find, a 38c water temperature gave a 41% increase in flow rate, meaning that in the time it takes you to filter 100kg at 25c, you can filter 141kg at 38c.  Perhaps some of the sieve's power requirements aren't simply for pushing water through the filter membrane; perhaps it is going towards heating the water to improve fluid flow rates.  Or, if we're using geyser water, cooling it so that the internal filter components don't melt.  Note that while the filter MEDIUM is sand, sand is not the entirety of the internal device components.  Who knows what is in there?

I know, some are going to nit-pick that the thermal difference should show up in the building somewhere, but I say "this is a game world, not the real world."  It doesn't have to be a perfect representation, it just has to be reasonable.  Personally I think its amazing that ONI has the complicated physics it already does.

Also, TECHNICALLY, an asteroid isn't a closed system.  A real asteroid would be continually radiating heat into space on the shadowed side while taking in immense amounts of heat on the sunny side.  If this were not the case, then the space station wouldn't need the complex thermal control systems it has.  Without them, the sunny side would rise to 120c and the shadowed side would drop to -157c.  Even the largest of the asteroids we have studied in our solar system do not have molten cores.  We've identified two that may have, or have had molten cores, but the primary problem is the surface area to mass ratio cools them too quickly to maintain a molten core.   Basically: An asteroid isn't a closed system. It is continually losing heat energy by radiating it into space.  A real asteroid would, over time, tend to freeze.

Now, that said, the ONI world is a closed system (unless you happen to get a void tile within your map).  Heat sources, such as geysers and volcanoes, continually dump heat into the system.  Some maps do not have very many wheezeworts, and two Entropy devices are not going to counter all the heat being dumped into the system.  Other mechanics must be available for us to use.  We can shuffle heat around using things like the thermo regulator and thermo aquatuner, which is what they were designed for.  So we can cool one pool (or gas room) and heat up another.  Then what do we do with that heat?  Currently, the only building designed to use waste heat is the steam generator, but it requires too high of a temperature to work with anything but a volcano.  That leaves us needing to get rid of it. In a real asteroid, that heat could be dumped into space -- after using what's necessary to keep things from freezing solid. 

 

TL;DR: My take on things is that the methods of manipulating heat are entirely reasonable for the ONI environment.

[Neckcen]

On 4/23/2018 at 12:09 AM, yoakenashi said:

Just like Pyrrus suggested, my duplicants are on an all mushroom diet, so I don't have to worry about cooling geyser water. All of my geyser water goes to my electrolyzers, which I suppose I do rely on the quirk that 90°C water produces 60°C oxygen.

But I do have a question, is the below implementation (down the middle of the screenshots) an instance of the drip bug? Edit: Answer: Yes If so, I have been using it without knowing it all this time - you can go ahead and call me a liar then! If not, I've used this to cool my base effectively, distributing thermo aquatuner chilled water to the base to absorb ambient heat.

I guess I'll need to try mushrooms once I've ranched some pufts, thanks.

No hard feelings about the drip bug, I didn't know what it was either.

22 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

TL;DR: My take on things is that the methods of manipulating heat are entirely reasonable for the ONI environment.

I'm a proponent of the philosophy that a game should be fun first, logic/realist second. I do not care much whether something is realistic or not; the AETN does not irk me, I love the magic turtles turning anything into coal and do not mind fixed temperature outputs (provided they are clearly documented and intended, they do not seem to be which is why I call them quirk). However just because something can be integrated in the game universe does not make it fun. My feedback is that currently managing heat is not fun, it requires either experimenting in debug mode to figure hidden mechanics or looking up the "solution" on the net.

Now, that said, the ONI world is a closed system (unless you happen to get a void tile within your map).  Heat sources, such as geysers and volcanoes, continually dump heat into the system.  Some maps do not have very many wheezeworts, and two Entropy devices are not going to counter all the heat being dumped into the system.  Other mechanics must be available for us to use.  We can shuffle heat around using things like the thermo regulator and thermo aquatuner, which is what they were designed for.  So we can cool one pool (or gas room) and heat up another.  Then what do we do with that heat?  Currently, the only building designed to use waste heat is the steam generator, but it requires too high of a temperature to work with anything but a volcano.  That leaves us needing to get rid of it. In a real asteroid, that heat could be dumped into space -- after using what's necessary to keep things from freezing solid.

A good summary of the current situation.

 

[Koningkrush]

On 3/31/2018 at 1:17 AM, ArunPrasath said:

But very very importantly PLEASE OPTIMIZE THE GAME FURTHER!!! I honestly don't know what's making this game lag this much!!! I can play super high end games like AC Origins with 60+ fps, but ONI is stuck at 15. Recent improvements are good, but new features are just adding excess load to an already poor implementation of code. With the beta preview, I'm barely getting 1 fps! YES, 1FPS...

Its my guess that threading has been implemented in this game. If that is true (and i believe so), most of the threads are just waiting for other task to complete before doing its task again. This theory explains the lag, but I may be entirely wrong about this.

5

If you're playing the preview, then I've heard that there is a lot of background log information being collected, which could be hurting your performance.

Beyond that, I'm able to play on CTRL-U in debug mode fine (Ultra-Ultra Speed), but I have a strong CPU and fast RAM.

There are a lot of extra calculations going on in the background now, with arithmetic means being calculated for heat as well as all these creatures reproducing, so that might be also a reason for your slow-downs.

On 3/31/2018 at 1:17 AM, ArunPrasath said:

Currently, heat is something not handled properly in the game. We have sieve tubes outputting water at 40 degree Celsius.

Everything emits heat in the game save for 2 things - worts and AETN.

Those are not at all enough for large scale bases.

1

As someone who has gone to Cycle 1500 and beyond, I both disagree and agree.

If you seal your base off with either double insulation, or single abysallite insulation, then you're fine. Use waterlocks/transport tubes to prevent heat transfer through the insulation wall. Use exosuits to prevent your duplicants from dying by leaving your base into the heat zone. Weeze worts will be fine for stabilizing your heat-sealed base.

For the steam water, I had a map with 4 steam geysers on it. The solution I had for thawing was emptying all the water using pumps into cold biomes. This both melted the ice in the biome as well as cool all the water down. My biggest problem with this is how the water sieve outputs my freezing water at 40 degrees Celsius.

Beyond this, heat death is still going to be an issue. When will it be an issue? Maybe on Cycle 10000 or something (the map is huge). It sounds like you're nowhere near getting to that point yet, so you just need to "Git Gud" and get lucky with map generation.

If it's still a problem, maybe you can come back to the game once they finish the additional maps (Heliocona). I feel like you'd have more fun fighting the cold than you would fighting the heat.

*Note* If they don't change the arithmetic mean for heating, then none of my advice applies. The game will be hell (literally) without some extensive and painful base design with vacuum sealing and the such. I posted a Suggestion in the forum for this, so I hope they change it.

[Oozinator]

1 hour ago, Koningkrush said:

If you seal your base off with either double insulation, or single abysallite insulation, then you're fine. Use waterlocks/transport tubes to prevent heat transfer through the insulation wall. Use exosuits to prevent your duplicants from dying by leaving your base into the heat zone. Weeze worts will be fine for stabilizing your heat-sealed base.

 

No more!
R2 Update
^^

[ArunPrasath]

On 4/25/2018 at 10:53 AM, Koningkrush said:

I have a strong CPU and fast RAM.

Can you post your specs? I'm looking to upgrade my PC and hoping to get the best possible config

[Koningkrush]

13 hours ago, ArunPrasath said:

Can you post your specs? I'm looking to upgrade my PC and hoping to get the best possible config

Intel Core i706850K CPU @ 3.60GHz, 6 Cores.

NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti Graphics Card.

Corsair DOMINATOR Platinum 32GB (2x16GB) DDR4 3200

Probably overkill for this game, but it runs it at ALT-Z (Speed 4) and CTRL-U (Speed 5) in Debug Mode fine.

Graphics cards keep rising in price seemingly endlessly. Mine alone went up around $300 since I got it. It's going to be by far the most expensive part of your entire computer and is the main thing you need to worry about when deciding your budget.

[ArunPrasath]

5 minutes ago, Koningkrush said:

Intel Core i706850K CPU @ 3.60GHz, 6 Cores.

NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti Graphics Card.

Corsair DOMINATOR Platinum 32GB (2x16GB) DDR4 3200

Probably overkill for this game, but it runs it at ALT-Z (Speed 4) and CTRL-U (Speed 5) in Debug Mode fine.

Graphics cards keep rising in price seemingly endlessly. Mine alone went up around $300 since I got it. It's going to be by far the most expensive part of your entire computer and is the main thing you need to worry about when deciding your budget.

Lol... 

I have a 6600 4 core 4 thread @3.3GHz

GTX 1060 6GB

16GB RAM

I feel my PC is decent enough .... dunno

[Koningkrush]

1 hour ago, ArunPrasath said:

Lol... 

I have a 6600 4 core 4 thread @3.3GHz

GTX 1060 6GB

16GB RAM

I feel my PC is decent enough .... dunno

When you said best possible configuration, there is no universal "best configuraiton".
If what you have works well, then there's no reason to upgrade.
If you want more graphics, you can get a GTX 1070 and sell your 1060.
If you want your PC to overall run a bit faster, then I would either get a Solid State Drive if you don't already have one, or upgrade your CPU to a 6 core.
Your RAM is fine unless you run a ton of programs at once.
And, ultimately, what you can actually upgrade to depends on your motherboard. Always check to see if the part your getting is actually compatible with your MB.

[crypticorb]

On 4/27/2018 at 7:44 AM, ArunPrasath said:

Can you post your specs? I'm looking to upgrade my PC and hoping to get the best possible config

The best possible configuration is dependent on your needs. I built mine around reliability and cost effectiveness, and it can still run any game I've tried at max graphics. Use this benchmark test if you want to directly compare to mine: http://www.userbenchmark.com/UserRun/8507752

CPU: Intel i5-4570 3.2GHz

RAM: 8GB

GFX card: AMD Radeon R9 200

SSD: 500GB

I'd ABSOLUTELY recommend getting an SSD replacement for your HD if you haven't yet, it is the single most cost effective upgrade available, and increases load speed, file transfer speed, power costs, noise, every benefit possible in one package. Even if you get a new computer, your old SSD can be easily transferred for a fast upgrade.

[TehPlayer14]

If you need high frame rate in ONI go with 16GB of ram and highly clocked cpu 4+GHz