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Self-Powering Oxygen Module MkII - (Production-And-Cooling)


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Here is my fix to the indefinite cooling issue as well as the "wrong element" damaging issue:

 

- I removed one Wheezewort as recommended by The Flying Fox

- I expanded the whole unit by 1 to the left (1x9 wall left of the hydrogen generator)

- I added a Gas Filter (although it hardly got used after the system was primed)

- I added a space heater

- I added 3 gold radiant gas pipes behind the left side of the space heater

- I added a "thermostat" / thermo sensor (Set the oxygen output temperature to what ever you want!!)

 

In my testing it is still self powering even with the extra 240w added on. The only downside that I initially see is that compared to the original one it's  9 blocks larger and takes slightly longer to get down to temp, but it's still very quick.

2018-06-25_06h55_24.thumb.png.bef7d39d5a7ef50f58bd18154a6ee488.png

2018-06-25_06h57_55.thumb.png.3310f082df5f586d2beb288df54e409d.png

 

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I noticed something strange with the airflow through the pressure sensor by the top most pump.  The sensor seems to partially obstruct the airflow, stopping it getting through from the refraction chamber to the hydrogen pump. 

I avoided the issue by placing the fan the opposite side to the pump, now the hydrogen seems to flow better.

anyone else find this?  it might just be that I experienced a bug.

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So im only getting like 430kgc air from this.

 

 

But my below, an improved design based off another ive seen around is getting 480+, enough for 8 dupes. Im also never getting damaged generator after the initial cycle. I can build heat systems off of this if I want but we are after max oxygen output in a SPOM thats the main goal. 

What are other people seeing?

2L6r9xP

 

So tweaking some settings, it is still SPOM (but less energy efficient) However my air is now at 508kgc

This is outputting 106.5gs hydrogen.

2L23WfQ

 

519.5 now, thats 97.5% efficient. Problem is im outputting way too much hydrogen I need a second generator now.

 

2NB3FlM

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4 hours ago, Denisetwin said:

what were the settings you tweaked for this change? thanks!

I believe I set the pumps to 500, or maybe 250. The causes them to suck more power, but not enough to not be self powering. I still have suplus of 120w to work with, and this is also powering the water pump. This was maybe 10 min messing with it, can be optimized far more as long as I dont sacrifice air output, but I think j/s can be improved to up over 200w surplus at least. Theoretical limit surplus is 296w with this system (with water pump) however air output suffers.

 

The main issue we/I am combating is the over-pressurization that happens for fractions of a second. This means that the air pressure needs to be low by default to allow fresh air/hydrogen room. The space around the elecrolyzer is too dynamic to apply simple math too, and sucking away what would seem to be enough to give space, simply is not enough, so the pumps need to be on more and efficiency skyrockets.

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On 6/25/2018 at 5:23 AM, Nullus Maximus said:

Here is my fix to the indefinite cooling issue as well as the "wrong element" damaging issue:

 

- I removed one Wheezewort as recommended by The Flying Fox

- I expanded the whole unit by 1 to the left (1x9 wall left of the hydrogen generator)

- I added a Gas Filter (although it hardly got used after the system was primed)

- I added a space heater

- I added 3 gold radiant gas pipes behind the left side of the space heater

- I added a "thermostat" / thermo sensor (Set the oxygen output temperature to what ever you want!!)

 

In my testing it is still self powering even with the extra 240w added on. The only downside that I initially see is that compared to the original one it's  9 blocks larger and takes slightly longer to get down to temp, but it's still very quick.

2018-06-25_06h55_24.thumb.png.bef7d39d5a7ef50f58bd18154a6ee488.png

2018-06-25_06h57_55.thumb.png.3310f082df5f586d2beb288df54e409d.png

 

If its getting too cold, simply setup a way to turn the cold factor on and off. As the cold is coming from worts, you want to turn them on and off. To do that you set them on a door that you can open and close based on pipe temp. No need to cool then heat.

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I made my own attempt at a SPOM using some of the design idea's in this thread.

Seems to be running fairly well. Everything is nice and cool, doesn't seem to break.

I was wondering if you gusy can see any major flaws in my design.

Double Spom.PNG

Spom temps.png

Spom temmm.PNG

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I finally tested the QuQuasar build and I must say, I love it! :) I will share 2 versions that work:

  • both with 100% Electrolyzer up-time
  • both with 95%-100% Power efficiency (compared to the theoretical minimum of 288kJ/water pumps + fixed ~85kJ for the rest).
  • H2 generator is separate
    • allows for separate expansion of H2 generators/ SPOMS
    • allows for a Power control room to be built => 50% more power !
    • allows for better power management - build PTs or SBs  next to H2 generators easily

5b4bb68292c44_SPOMMandSPOMMM.thumb.png.e37992643792b4573947e18eead220c4.png

Benefits of left version:

  • a bit "smaller" gas chamber (5x5 vs 6x5 )

Benefits of right version:

  • metal tiles are neighbors => better cooling with less temp-shift plates(positioning needs testing)
  • bottom atmo-sensor better positioned => faster response to pressure change => easier control
  • left O2 pump better positioned - closer to the Electrolyzer => better pump efficiency
  • H2 pump is slightly higher => H2 gathers better, so I think it's a bit more power efficient
  • The bottom left vent that is in the wheezie room can be used to fill it with H2 and still keep it 3x4

Needless to say, I slightly prefer the right version, as I think it provides better power efficiency.

Logic setup:

  • Using a memory gate + filter(8sec) to run the H2 pump if gas rises above 725 for 8 seconds regardless of changes. After that I stop it and wait for the pressure to build up again.
  • The atmo-sensor next to the Electrolyzer allows for easy manual control on/off. You can skip that, although it could be useful to turn off/on the Electrolyzer if you have too much O2/H2
  • All atmo-sensors are set to "above". You can see the values on the first image.

5b4bb936c47a2_SPOMMandSPOMMM_LO.thumb.png.e4fbdf565c50e491a1b3ee706192559a.png

Notes:

Wiring and piping is ugly and not optimized, it's not what matters here anyways, so I'll skip it.

I would recommend the gas sensor + gas shutoff in the top middle - that's my logic gas filter - it doesn't use electricity(although requires a wire), but provides O2 filtering when you build the system and later if it randomly breathes in O2 from the top. I'd rather spend that metal in advance than have to deal with broken H2 generators - the cost is only 3 tiles of building space.

Ignore the wheezewort rooms, since I was playing around with them. I am still not sure what works best for cooling, so temp-shift plates and wheezewort position is experimental at this stage, but probably the right room+1 missing wheezie is what you want to have. However, tested it with 20kg of H2 inside and Igneous pipes for O2 and it didn't provide great cooling - only 5-7°C.
Beware  -  the top right corner of the right setup. I have built a tile there, I think you need it, otherwise O2 might jump to the H2 chamber in that setup. I had this issue and putting that corner back seemed to fix it(although that makes no sense, or maybe I was lucky, no idea). If you put the sensor in the corner for the other setup it might fit nicely though.

Building materials:

  • Liquid pipes are Abyssalite, surrounding tiles also(non-isolation will do fine, as it's an isolator by itself).
  • Gas pipes are Abyssalite except for the cooling chamber where Igneous rock is best(or Granite considering we have tempshift plates).
  • Gold ore for the Electrolyzer is a must!
  • Gold ore for the pumps and is nice too, since they might heat up eventually - 50° overcooling temperature is always nice for machinery.
  • I would use Refined Gold for the metal tiles + 2 Tempshift Plates(TP) on the bottom ½  of the electrolyzer
  • Mesh/airflow tiles - gold ore is nice, since it speeds heat transfer with refined metal TPs
  • I am not 100% sure what to say about the other TP. Here are my thoughts:
    • It's nice if they're refined metal because of the 50-60 Heat conductivity - that speeds up heat transfer with metal tiles(60 Heat conductivity) tremendously
    • You might settle for something cheaper such as copper ore(4.5) or even granite(3.4), but note that heat transfer will slow down 15-20 times if you use those(smaller value is used).
    • On the wheezewort side things are different, I think Granite is best there(spoiler).
    Spoiler

    Here is my reasoning. Since there the H2 has low Heat conductivity, H2-TP transfer will depend on the TP's heat capacity(Higher should be better, the same way water is used in radiators), so Igneous rock(=1) is good, Granite worse(=0.8), metals and others even worse. However, TP transfer heat both to H2 AND to metal tiles there, so the TP's Heat conductivity also matters(2 on Igneous rock vs 3.4 on Granite) => I'd say Granite is best on the left side. I'm not 100% sure on this though so I'm open to discussion about it.

In total you'd need at least

  • 5-6t Abyssalite
  • 500 gold ore
  • 500+200 Refined Gold for metal tiles + logic
  • 4-5t Granite for TP-s + some more for pipes
    • 1600 more refined Gold for TPs on Electrolyzer
    • 50 plastic for 20kg vent
  • probably 1-2t metal ore for wiring + H2 generators + water pump.

Note that if you build the SPOM far away from Generators you'll need to transport the H2, Water and electricity, which means more Abyssalite and metal ore. You could use Switching Smart batteries for a single setup, though, since it's <1kW you can get by with 1 Smart battery + 1 normal battery(see my tutorial on electricity for info on that).

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4 hours ago, Craigjw said:

I used a high pressure vent to fill the Weeze chamber with Hydrogen, now my dupes are getting hypothermia from -26c O2, lol.

5b4e8de61f3c3_o2cooling.thumb.jpg.f89b6d99ad2b7806885034c82a53e5ef.jpg

My dupes work in cold AETN areas <-40° and get hypothermia only, when they get wet, while entering / soggy feet.

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I'm also starting to use highly compressed Hydrogen and I must say, it really feels cool! Also melting the ice biome instead of digging it and using the 0°C p.Water as coolant ... cool!

Next step in the resource war would be melting stuff with <100-150° melting point, such as slime. That should give you x2, similar to the ice. + the heat should take care of the slimelung in advance. You would need a cheap way of generating and removing heat though, such as volcanoes and AETN-s.

BTW @Craigjw, isn't that cooling room using 2 extra isolated tiles? And why are you using isolated tiles anyways, if you have normal abyssalite?

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12 hours ago, Craigjw said:

I used a high pressure vent to fill the Weeze chamber with Hydrogen, now my dupes are getting hypothermia from -26c O2, lol.

are you playing EU? Is this a change?   I always have my O2 entering my base between -20 and -35 to keep the entire base nice and chilly and never had them get hypothermia from it

 

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1 hour ago, Denisetwin said:

are you playing EU? Is this a change?   I always have my O2 entering my base between -20 and -35 to keep the entire base nice and chilly and never had them get hypothermia from it

 

Maybe your folks are wearing atmo suits ?

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7 minutes ago, martosss said:

Maybe your folks are wearing atmo suits ?

no, not at all.  They give me the blue temp thing when they walk by the cold vents and the coldest areas around the vents, but other than that, they are just fine. 

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13 hours ago, martosss said:

I'm also starting to use highly compressed Hydrogen and I must say, it really feels cool! Also melting the ice biome instead of digging it and using the 0°C p.Water as coolant ... cool!

Next step in the resource war would be melting stuff with <100-150° melting point, such as slime. That should give you x2, similar to the ice. + the heat should take care of the slimelung in advance. You would need a cheap way of generating and removing heat though, such as volcanoes and AETN-s.

BTW @Craigjw, isn't that cooling room using 2 extra isolated tiles? And why are you using isolated tiles anyways, if you have normal abyssalite?

"melting" slime turns to dirt, same for algae, dirt becomes sand, sand becomes glass, if you get them hot enough....

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1 minute ago, Kabrute said:

"melting" slime turns to dirt, same for algae, dirt becomes sand, sand becomes glass, if you get them hot enough....

Ugh, but I want liquid slime and algae, not dirt. :(  Is it 1:1 ratio? And is it "Hot dirt" heated to the respective melting point of the "solid"? And how does something "melt" into a solid? ...ah, OK, I had some Dirt next to a volcano, now I understand why ... so is it converted to a Dirt tile? So I have to get to molten glass in order to receive the full amount? Then I guess digging it is!  But at least for the ice biome melting is relatively easy and worth it big time. I currently have so much melted Polluted water at ~0° ... and the Ice is coming afterwards ...

But Why is the heat exchange so slow? I had a dug out ice block(-20°) next to a 150° Gold block and they just sit there .. 1 of them blue as the sky, the other red as a meteor ...

image.thumb.png.1f21f701180f68c483f5f296c9657efa.png

It's gonna become golden ice!

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yes, yes, i dunno, if its to the bottom right thats on all buried geysers afaik, "solids" that "melt" into other solids ALWAYS become a full space tile, apparently even at 10grams. Build ice statues instead, their small size lets them melt quickly  your trying to melt too large of a pile at once.  every ton=1000kg=1 full tile when it melts so make sure you have enough room to hold all the water coming your way

ice bergs melt slower than ice cubes, think of it like that....

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On 7/17/2018 at 1:53 AM, Craigjw said:

I used a high pressure vent to fill the Weeze chamber with Hydrogen, now my dupes are getting hypothermia from -26c O2, lol.

I run into this issue because the dupes aren't consuming the oxygen faster than it's being made, causing the oxygen to remain idle in the pipes just getting colder as it sits.

Fortunately the kitchen and bathroom was nearby to heat the oxygen up quite a nice bit, given heat always seems to linger there. Perhaps you can equalize the temperature in the same way.

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10 hours ago, Kabrute said:

yes, yes, i dunno, if its to the bottom right thats on all buried geysers afaik, "solids" that "melt" into other solids ALWAYS become a full space tile, apparently even at 10grams. Build ice statues instead, their small size lets them melt quickly  your trying to melt too large of a pile at once.  every ton=1000kg=1 full tile when it melts so make sure you have enough room to hold all the water coming your way

ice bergs melt slower than ice cubes, think of it like that....

yea, I was thinking of a possible overflow danger(IRL ice has lower density than water, so it actually should shrink a little, but .. I doubt we'll see that here :D), but I have a ~20t amount of ice and a 41 tile tank, so ... it should be ok, as long as the ice ACTUALLY melts - I could easily haul another 20t from my ice biome, but I think if we start with 20t it'll be enough for a while.

I built a tempshift plate behind the ice, let's see how that goes, although I don't believe it matters much.

And as for ice cubes, yes, I've used them before, but they take very long to construct, so I'd rather spend that time building/digging/ranching something than melting ice. That's why I have that container with ice in the first place - to melt ice at a lower cost(only hauling gold/ice).

I even tried sending ice to my gold volcano, where I have a tank with 80° water and 4kg of pressurized steam above it(maybe I should build a turbine ... hmm ... ), but that stubborn ice just doesn't want to melt! Iceberg or not, if I submerge it in 70° water(15+ tiles) it should melt for 1-2 cycles? I think it was even standing on a metal plate inside that pool(where the gold from the volcano falls). I guess my ONI sense of heat transfer speed is not developed yet. :)

Anyways, I'll leave the hot ice for now and do a proper drecko farm, as I really need fiber/plastic/eggs for suits/everything/nomelettes.

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On 7/16/2018 at 3:14 AM, Tribble said:

I made my own attempt at a SPOM using some of the design idea's in this thread.

Seems to be running fairly well. Everything is nice and cool, doesn't seem to break.

I was wondering if you gusy can see any major flaws in my design.

Double Spom.PNG

Spom temps.png

Spom temmm.PNG

I like your SPOM but stuck at automation set. What is the number of 2 automation clocks?

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As a fan of electrolyzer builds and inspired by @martosss's post from Monday I performed some testing of few designs.

So far we haven't established any common way to measure how "good" an electrolyzer desing is. I decided to measure how much oxygen it generates, how much hydrogen I can store and how much energy the whole setup consumes (all during one cycle). When a previous day report appears at the end of a cycle I was deleting storage of hydrogen and oxygen and I was waiting till next report message to pop up and I was pausing game at that moment to check how much hydrogen is in storage.

The reason I measured hydrogen is that I noticed that some build's may cause a gas deletion.

I was comparing results to the maximum possible per one electrolyzer: 532.8kg of oxygen, 67.2kg of hydrogen

The best I could build was this:

?interpolation=lanczos-none&output-forma

Electrolyzer was up 100% of time producing maximum possible value.

Stored hydrogen: 66.9kg (99%) - I guess rest of it was just not pumped yet and still in pump chamber.

Consumed power: 373.5kJ.

As there is opening in wall on both sides of electrolyzer I was a bit worried that some hydrogen may be sucked up by lower pumps so I run this setup for 10 cycles with some additional filters on oxygen pipes to try catch any packets of hydrogen. Turns out no hydrogen was slipped. Stored hydrogen was very close to maximum value expected - 671,5kg,

I also continued my futile quest for 2 pump only setup but I came across hydrogen deletion problem. However I managed to build a setup with 100% up time:

Spoiler

?interpolation=lanczos-none&output-forma

It was a bit more power hungry and I stored only 60,3kg of hydrogen - almost 7kg of hydrogen deleted! That is a no-go. But it was fun experiment still.

I also tested @martosss's designs:

Spoiler

?interpolation=lanczos-none&output-forma

Oxygen: 525.7kg (98.7%)

Hydrogen: 64,6kg (96%)

Power: 364,2kJ

Spoiler

?interpolation=lanczos-none&output-forma

Oxygen: 523.9kg (98.3%)

Hydrogen: 65,8kg (98%)

Power: 370,7kJ

So I was not able to run them 100% time, but looks like the first design might cause some hydrogen deletion or just the pumping timing was a bit different so more gas was stored in second design.

Also the second design gives strange results in power consumption - you can see that electrolyzer consumed more power so it should produce more oxygen, but report shows that it produced less - oxygen deletion?

Probably should have run the test for 10 cycles to get more consistent results.

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Well, @Angpaur, practically speaking,(1) 98%  up time +(2) 370kJ power required is pretty close to the theoretical limit of efficiency(100% up time and 288kJ power required on air pumps + ~75kJ ~fixed  for electrolyzer + water pump).

Actually, instead of measuring the H2 quantity, you can pour it all in generators and see how much power you generate with it - I think the max was about 535kJ with an 800W generator(i.e. no boost), so you gain 150kJ/day, i.e. 250W(or 400kJ/650W with boost).

The hard thing about testing is

  • starting with vacuum => you would need some time to setup the system and clear the vents
  • starting from "stable state" => you could have different amount of gas in the chamber which would lead to different amount of power required for pumps(you need pump power usage to measure (2) ).

Therefore, I would test the long-term stable parameters (1) and (2). For my build they're both ~95%, which I'm perfectly fine with.

In my current game I'm using 2 "ugly electrolyzer tanks"(posted here), and 1 pretty one(and yes, I do need all this O2, if you're wondering, I have ~60 dupes @ C155, so 5 electrolyzers ~100% + deodorizers makes sense for me). However, they're not running 100% of time because I have gas pressure problems. They're also mixing H2 from time to time, so it's a big and funny mess. However, I'd say the compact version is very nice, as it doesn't waste space and you can fairly easily build more next to it, so it would be my go-to for further expansion(going for 100 dupes...would I make it?). However, the game is already a bit laggy and using tons of ram(4-5 currently, I have 8), so ... I might not reach that stage. :)

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I think it is easier to just gather all produced hydrogen in one place and then just count it as 100g = 800W (this is what hydrogen generator consumes to produce 800W if I recall correctly)

And I don't have intention to diminish your designs, so please don't feel defensive about it. It is just my personal quest to find a way to build maximum performance electrolyzer setup without using the water and airflow tiles cheat. Next step would be now optimizing power consumption - an opened bottom design may allow getting rid of one of the pumps.

Also the issues you mentioned - I'm using sandbox mode to test. You can easily set up equal conditions for each design in sandbox.

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6 hours ago, Angpaur said:

So far we haven't established any common way to measure how "good" an electrolyzer desing is.

That's a bold claim.

Electrolyzer has 2 inputs: power and water. You get constant amount of O2 and H per amount of H2O.

Assuming you're using it to supply O2 and your build doesn't delete hydrogen the "measure how good electrolyzer build is" is amount of O2 per kJ.

That being said standalone electrolyzer without any pumps is most efficient.

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