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Klei Should Have a Character Update


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On 1/10/2018 at 10:55 AM, Lakurius said:

I want maxwell to be buffed. If the devs would only make his shadow duelists better... Somewhere in this forum i read something like "shadow duelists should copy the wasd movements of the player". Like... They would focus the mob that maxwell is attacking first and then they would move around the mob like a... Mirror image.

I know I made a suggestion like this at some point, but I can't seem to find the post- perhaps this was one of the many posts that were deleted some time in 2016.

 

In any case, my idea was that once you have an active target in the player's combat component, then the duelists will move to be the same distance from your target as you are, +/- some fudge factor, and then mimic your movement relative to the target and always try to attack if they're within range and are able to do so.

Theory is that this would enable the duelists to be able to take on harder creatures like giants without being melted, and makes their overall damage throughput higher if the puppet master is good in the art of not being hit.

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23 hours ago, Chris1488 said:

Maxwell's actions)

Puppets should be puppets, you should be able to tell them when to stop before they put John Henry to shame. Also, they don't even do the unlockable dances or caroling, what gives? I think Maxwell's puppets should only do as Maxwell says: If Maxwell chops a tree, the logger will follow suit until that one tree is felled, rather than commit mass-tree genocide whenever he feels like...

Nonono pls don't make dst maxwell to ds maxwell thx

There should be an option to "open" the codex umbra inside of your inventory. A small menu will show up. There you can then control the puppets: there are two states for the gatherers: follow and gather. 

And the fighter puppets focus one mob and copy the wasd movements of the player and move around the mob like a mirror image or something, idk.

 

(Please don't flame me now)

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11 minutes ago, Lakurius said:

And the fighter puppets focus one mob and copy the wasd movements of the player and move around the mob like a mirror image or something, idk.

That's what I proposed from the part of my quote you cut out. :?

11 minutes ago, Lakurius said:

Nonono pls don't make dst maxwell to ds maxwell thx

How come? It lets Maxwell have more command over his puppets rather than letting them run rampant, leaving a trail of logs, rocks, and other remains in their wake. It prompts Max players to put in a little effort of commanding them what to do rather than just sitting and watching the events unfurl before them. (And like I said earlier, it gives Woodie a bit more prominence in the wood-collecting department.) That and it's a better solution to their behavior than just giving them an on/off switch.

(And you don't gotta ask not to get flamed after every comment either, we don't bite :V)

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Judging from what I've seen in the comments of this thread, no wonder many people here have to play alone all the time. Geez. How about a lil tolerance and making a point without attacking personally your interlocutors? Or showing there is "the way, the only way" of doing things in the game. Cuz, sorry, there is isn't. That's the beauty of DST. U can solve problems differently every time.

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9 hours ago, FreyaMaluk said:

Judging from what I've seen in the comments of this thread, no wonder many people here have to play alone all the time. Geez. How about a lil tolerance and making a point without attacking personally your interlocutors? Or showing there is "the way, the only way" of doing things in the game. Cuz, sorry, there is isn't. That's the beauty of DST. U can solve problems differently every time.

You’re mistaken.  I don’t care how you play nor would that change if we were playing together.  You using mathmatically inefficient strategies hurts no one.

However, spreading misinformation has the potential to push new players who are already often skating on thin margins to make more mistakes and die.

It sounds like you’re happy with how you play, and that’s great.  But enjoying the game doesn’t mean you’re able to give good advice.

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It all depends really... someone may want to use tent to take a real-life break and go drink or use bathroom. Someone wants to keep their health and sanity up by eating blue and green mushrooms/ bundled jerky. And then there are pros that take all shadow creatures the world decides to throw at them.(talking about using tent in the ruins) there are many ways of playing this game...If i felt like it I could fight Dragonfly with walking cane cuz "it can't break and I'm constantly fast"

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2 hours ago, Toros said:

You’re mistaken.  I don’t care how you play nor would that change if we were playing together.  You using mathmatically inefficient strategies hurts no one.

However, spreading misinformation has the potential to push new players who are already often skating on thin margins to make more mistakes and die.

It sounds like you’re happy with how you play, and that’s great.  But enjoying the game doesn’t mean you’re able to give good advice.

"missinformation" dude.. what missinfomation is that using tents is a good strat. This attitude of "Ik it all" it's just extremely irritating and I can assure u many people do use tents, as many people here have said so.

How recommending tents to people is gonna get them killed or making them do more mistakes? are we talking about the same topic here? or are u just blowing this issue out of proportion for the sake of traying so ahrd to prove u are more versed in DST's core mechanics?.. Please stay in topic and leave your negative attitude and insulting comments.. and if you can't then just "move on" as the devs said before.

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5 hours ago, Szczuku said:

It all depends really... someone may want to use tent to take a real-life break and go drink or use bathroom. Someone wants to keep their health and sanity up by eating blue and green mushrooms/ bundled jerky. And then there are pros that take all shadow creatures the world decides to throw at them.(talking about using tent in the ruins) there are many ways of playing this game...If i felt like it I could fight Dragonfly with walking cane cuz "it can't break and I'm constantly fast"

I mean, you /could/ use a tent to take a break but you could also log out and log back in when you’re ready.  The problem with a tent is that you lose 1 hunger per second, so if you’re gone 2 minutes you’ve lost a day and a half worth of hunger, and could come back to a near-starving character.  Given how powerful food is at restoring health and sanity (and things like tams at maintaining it over time) it’s just not an efficient trade of stats.

You also can learn to kite shadow monsters very quickly and easily, a new player could learn the pattern in a few minutes.

3 hours ago, FreyaMaluk said:

"missinformation" dude.. what missinfomation is that using tents is a good strat. This attitude of "Ik it all" it's just extremely irritating and I can assure u many people do use tents, as many people here have said so.

How recommending tents to people is gonna get them killed or making them do more mistakes? are we talking about the same topic here? or are u just blowing this issue out of proportion for the sake of traying so ahrd to prove u are more versed in DST's core mechanics?.. Please stay in topic and leave your negative attitude and insulting comments.. and if you can't then just "move on" as the devs said before.

Saying tents are a good strat is misinformation because tents are to sanity restoration what farms are to hunger restoration.

Relative to the other options it is an inefficient use of time and resources, so in that sense it is bad.

As far as getting newbies killed it’s super common for new players to find themselves unprepared and in a rough spot due to inefficent use of time, and then try something desperate and die.

Let’s say a new player is just barely making it through the winter and after fighting deerclops they’re low on health and sanity.  They decide to use their tent and recover most of their health amd sanity but are nearly starving to death and they decide to attack some pengulls or tallbirds nearby without armor (as they used it for deerclops and don’t feel they have time to gather resources for more) and then they die.

Had they decided to instead chop some wood for armor and then farm some spiders they could restore less health and sanity if they had slept but without having traded one problem (low health) for another (low hunger).  Low sanity really isn’t more than a little annoying unless you’re fighting a boss at the time.

It appears to me that you’re the one who is upset about this tent thing when it’s only one of a dozen new player mistakes I would try to steer them away from, like camping near beefalo or spending fall building regular and advanced farms.

Returning to the topic of character updates, I strongly believe that nerfing Wicker/Wx/Wolfgang is appropiate given their huge perks and minor downsides.  Wx could cap his stats at 200 and still be an excellent character, and there are plenty of more interesting ways to nerf him than that.  Similarly, Wilson who is often mistaken as the “average” character despite mechanically being in the bottom 25% as well as Winona could benefit from some new and interesting mechanics without much risk of becoming too powerful.

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12 minutes ago, Toros said:

I mean, you /could/ use a tent to take a break but you could also log out and log back in when you’re ready.  The problem with a tent is that you lose 1 hunger per second, so if you’re gone 2 minutes you’ve lost a day and a half worth of hunger, and could come back to a near-starving character.  Given how powerful food is at restoring health and sanity (and things like tams at maintaining it over time) it’s just not an efficient trade of stats.

You also can learn to kite shadow monsters very quickly and easily, a new player could learn the pattern in a few minutes.

Saying tents are a good strat is misinformation because tents are to sanity restoration what farms are to hunger restoration.

Relative to the other options it is an inefficient use of time and resources, so in that sense it is bad.

As far as getting newbies killed it’s super common for new players to find themselves unprepared and in a rough spot due to inefficent use of time, and then try something desperate and die.

Let’s say a new player is just barely making it through the winter and after fighting deerclops they’re low on health and sanity.  They decide to use their tent and recover most of their health amd sanity but are nearly starving to death and they decide to attack some pengulls or tallbirds nearby without armor (as they used it for deerclops and don’t feel they have time to gather resources for more) and then they die.

Had they decided to instead chop some wood for armor and then farm some spiders they could restore less health and sanity if they had slept but without having traded one problem (low health) for another (low hunger).  Low sanity really isn’t more than a little annoying unless you’re fighting a boss at the time.

It appears to me that you’re the one who is upset about this tent thing when it’s only one of a dozen new player mistakes I would try to steer them away from, like camping near beefalo or spending fall building regular and advanced farms.

Returning to the topic of character updates, I strongly believe that nerfing Wicker/Wx/Wolfgang is appropiate given their huge perks and minor downsides.  Wx could cap his stats at 200 and still be an excellent character, and there are plenty of more interesting ways to nerf him than that.  Similarly, Wilson who is often mistaken as the “average” character despite mechanically being in the bottom 25% as well as Winona could benefit from some new and interesting mechanics without much risk of becoming too powerful.

I'm sorry, but this is just a bit.. weird.. to say the least.. what does saying tents are actually something good have anything to do with people that starve to death using a tent? IMO that it's just very unlikely to happen and u are inventing scenerios that are just so unrealistic. In the imagination many things can happen.. I guess.

It is not your calling trying "to steer people away from" anything. This game is about experiencing things by yourself, but u are just trying to completely deny other people's experiences. Besides, how can u compare tents with camping near beefalo at all? 

Anyways-- this is my last post directed to u, cuz from I can see, you feel this is a crusade for a "holy" cause instead of a discussion.

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On 10/01/2018 at 6:01 PM, ShadowDuelist said:

I strongly agree that the less popular/less fun characters should be buffed, and the currently "good ones" don't really need a nerf. I mean I really don't feel there is a character that really breaks the game to the point it becomes boring or "too easy". EG: If you play wicker in a long lived world past mid game you'll notice the book usage is gradually reduced to the point where you stand without advantages over a Wilson. Also wickerbottoms perks in a team don't really stack: If you want more than one player to be able to read its still better to have a maxwell. And the same goes for WX or Wolfgang: they are strong fun characters but there always comes a point where you DO notice their weaknesses, having to work double to obtain X thing.

TL;DR: no nerfing, only buffing the (generally agreed upon being the) boring ones.

I agree. I think certain characters are perfect as they are and would be really disappointed to see them changed.

The only characters that are desperate for an update, are Willow, Winona and Werebeaver.

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Regarding the tents discussion, I do use tents once and then, they are a good situational item which exists for a reason and I wouldn't say its damaging to anyone's gameplay quality to use them. Tents are a trade of low quality food/any food available, for health and sanity no matter the food's original properties.

I think the issue here is how often or in which situation would you use tents: if you rely heavily on tents as your one and only way to get sanity and health, you are probably doing things wrong, since you should aim to obtain and always have available food ingredients to restore whatever it is you need to recover.

However, in many situations you can get to a point (eg you overextended your stay near the ruins, you spent too much time fighting mactusks and living nomadic in winter, etc) where you don't really have much of a food choice, and sometimes trading low quality food such as a bunch of meatballs, or a meaty stew, for health and sanity, does pay off in the end.

I don't use tents often either, but I always keep one precrafted because it is another tool to quickly get out of a bad spot with whatever you have available.

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On 1/11/2018 at 8:26 PM, Chris1488 said:

Maxwell: Give him more control over his puppets (Puppets follow Maxwell's actions)

Puppets should be puppets, you should be able to tell them when to stop before they put John Henry to shame. Also, they don't even do the unlockable dances or caroling, what gives? I think Maxwell's puppets should only do as Maxwell says: If Maxwell chops a tree, the logger will follow suit until that one tree is felled, rather than commit mass-tree genocide whenever he feels like it, cutting down your tier 1 evergreens yielding 1 log. Same goes with every other puppet, especially Duelists. Replicating the player's own attack/dodge tactics would make Duelists way more than worth using, cause if they die, you only have yourself to blame on your shoddy kiting skills, and not their normal follower AI that normally becomes their grave. So in a way this would be a nerf/buff to Maxwell, cause Maxwell players would actually have to put in the effort of commanding their puppets what to do instead of lazing around, margaritas-in-hand. (Also this indirectly buffs Woodie, making him a more reliable wood-collector compared to the tree-demons.)

I thought of a better directive to this than just turning him into DS Maxwell ( @Lakurius thanks for the input )

Maxwell: Let him have more command over his puppets (Direct their actions)

I still stick by my opinion of the on/off switch puppets and letting them run rampant. However, I feel like a more fun alternative than just doing an action and having the puppets follow suit would be to allow Maxwell to have "Chop/Dig/Mine/Attack" prompts based on what puppets he has summoned. So Maxwell can stand around with a lantern, umbrella, etc. and be able to tell his puppets what to do without initiating the action first himself.

(Ex: So if Maxwell has 2 Loggers and a Digger and is holding a random item, say a walking cane, he can click on a tree with the "Chop" prompt and both loggers will get to work. If Maxwell clicks on another tree, the other logger will separate from the first and fell the directed tree. Afterwards he can click on the stumps with "Dig" and the Logger will do its thing.)

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3 hours ago, Chris1488 said:

I thought of a better directive to this than just turning him into DS Maxwell ( @Lakurius thanks for the input )

Maxwell: Let him have more command over his puppets (Direct their actions)

I still stick by my opinion of the on/off switch puppets and letting them run rampant. However, I feel like a more fun alternative than just doing an action and having the puppets follow suit would be to allow Maxwell to have "Chop/Dig/Mine/Attack" prompts based on what puppets he has summoned. So Maxwell can stand around with a lantern, umbrella, etc. and be able to tell his puppets what to do without initiating the action first himself.

(Ex: So if Maxwell has 2 Loggers and a Digger and is holding a random item, say a walking cane, he can click on a tree with the "Chop" prompt and both loggers will get to work. If Maxwell clicks on another tree, the other logger will separate from the first and fell the directed tree. Afterwards he can click on the stumps with "Dig" and the Logger will do its thing.)

I think I would rather have the on/off switch. If the puppets were universal like they were in DS then it would work well, but I like how they work automatically in DST. It leaves me free to focus on the collecting and treeguards.

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4 hours ago, Sinister_Fang said:

I think I would rather have the on/off switch. If the puppets were universal like they were in DS then it would work well, but I like how they work automatically in DST. It leaves me free to focus on the collecting and treeguards.

I am not completely sure, but I think his suggestion is a compromise between the "on/off" switch and the "command". If the puppets are on, they will do things automatically; if the puppets are off, you have to command them to do things. That way, people that don't want to commit mass tree genocide, and people that do not care which trees are chopped can have both, and it still serves a purpose outside of satisfying both play styles: shadow duelist doesn't go attacking everything that moves (if they are turned off) meaning they die least often from sheer stupidity, and shadow choppers/diggers/miners can work even if Maxwell cannot see the object to destroy, because of darkness or not enough light source (if they are turned on). At least that it what it seemed to me.

----

Now, moving onto Willow, Woodie, and Winona (and giving my opinion on them)...

Willow

Spoiler

I think Willow is kinda fine. The main probelm with Willow is how ethereal or difficult to "see" her perks are: immunity to fire damage for a few seconds and then resistance to fire is difficult to see specially because to see your health you have to hover your mouse over the health widget (though there are those little down/up arrows that really help with it); and the same applies with her freezing while insane: it wouldn't be a big issue if we could see the temperature of the characters more reliably without the need of a mod. Because of that, the changes I would like on her are:

  • Immunity to fire again instead of resistance. It is just much easier to follow, and the dragonfly armor gives immunity to fire anyway.
  • Add some way for players to see the temperature of characters without the use of mods. I do use the Combined Status mod, and it does make Willow much more easy and less annoying to play while also being easier to take advantage of her many other good perks.
  • And extra: Change lighter recipe to 3 cut grass instead of a rope, and maybe nitre instead of gold -because if you have gold, you already have a science machine and therefore can make rope, also nitre is rarely used...-); also give all characters the ability to cook on her lighter. This way, the lighter can be a more useful item and is easier to craft for the team, with the added bonus that they can cook on it. The lighter is an extremely underrated and useful item for navigating the world and caves as Willow without the need of a pre-crafted crock pot/campfire as you can easily grab some berries, keep them until they are stale/spoiled (note: spoiled, not rotten), cook them in it, and they are fresh again for eating for a short time and with a tiny added bonus in hunger! Or you can even negate the sanity drain of raw meats by making them into cooked meats (except monster meat), or even cooking any mushroom caps you find on the go. It also is a weaker torch you can use on emergency situations (if you don't have enough grass and twigs at the moment darkness came), or just to avoid crafting a torch in a long time because of it's extra longevity.

Woodie

Spoiler

Unlike Willow, the phases of the moon are a bit more easy to follow, even if it is just as ethereal as Willow's mechanics, thanks to DST more regular moon phases (on the 11th day of the game and then every 20 days after that there is a guaranteed full moon). Though it requires a more long-term preparation; and there is not really a way to avoid transforming (I mean, you can go to the caves... if you have them available), you just transform and then eat a bunch of logs to transform back to Woodie. Also the Beaver form is a bit underwhelming. Some changes I would like to see:

  • Beaver form has a default sanity drain of -20 sanity/min while the log meter is not at 0, but when the log meter reaches 0 the sanity drain would become -90 sanity/min, but no longer take "hunger damage" from 0 log meter. This gives the beaver form a bit more versatility and is less punishing. Or so I think, at least.
  • Beaver form has same damage as a spear (34) instead of the same damage as an axe (27); and have 60% damage absorption (like a grass suit) instead of 25% damage absorption. This way it is still awful for combat, because you cannot equip a walking cane, and you cannot restore health and sanity mid-battle; but would be viable for combat while retaining it's harvesting prowess.
  • Some items to control beaver and human form better. An equippable item that could avoid Woodie from transforming into beaver for a full in-game day (8 minutes) even if there is a full moon would be very useful, but also some consumable item that deplete your log meter to 0 right away in order to transform into werebeaver would be neat too.

Winona

Spoiler

Winona's case is more of expectancy: everyone expected her to be more similar to Wolfgang/Wigfrid (powerful) or Wickerbottom (resourceful), but she ended up being more like Wilson ("generic", new-player friendly). I personally like her except for her almost immunity to darkness perk (almost makes no sense and is very situational, IMO). The few changes I would like to see:

  • A faster hunger rate. Something that can at least mildly outweigh her good perks, this is a minor bad perk considering how easy food is to come by, but is something?
  • Sanity drain while near any fire source, extra sanity drain when near the night light. This sanity drain would vary depending on the size of the fire and how close to the fire Winona is, now, if she is very close to the fire and it is a small fire (on campfire/fire pit) would be -10 sanity/min, medium-sized fire would be -20 sanity/min, and a large fire would be -40 sanity/min; holding a torch would have a sanity drain of -2 sanity/min, and a forest fire would have a -100 sanity/min (when being very close to it). Also, if she sets something on fire with a torch/fire staff/lighter she receives a -1 sanity penalty, but putting out a fire would give her a sanity buff of +5 sanity. This is all based on her quotes about fire, of course.
  • Faster picking of reeds, grass tufts, berry bushes, saplings, and items like that, plus if she could harvest juicy berry bushes like normal berry bushes instead of punching them and picking the berries off the floor. This would further reinforce her niche of being a time efficient character.
  • Trusty tape repairs armor, but not clothes. I like the trusty tape as an economic and space efficient version of the sewing kit, but it is just another item that does the same thing, if instead it did not repair clothes and repaired armor, helmets and maybe weapons, it would be very interesting and would give a much bigger reason to use her, while also giving a different purpose than the sewing kit.

 

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