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I'd love to see the player statistics and player time statistics of the various characters to see who gets and doesn't get play, but let's talk about Willow, again. I know, I know. It's been done a lot, maybe even to death, but if you don't want to read ANOTHER thread about Willow, GOOD NEWS! There's other threads! I know, WEIRD! You can just ignore this one. It is actually possible, I know. I've done it!

Anyhow, so, Willow is broken. By now we all know her abilities and weaknesses, and she's boring sauce. Sorry, she is, so, no long arguments for or against (at least for now), let's just get to the brass tacks.

1) "Has a sweet lighter."

Give Willow her Lighter back. Willow should start the game with Willow's Lighter in her inventory. It should have no durability. It should restore her sanity at +10 Sanity/Min (edit: as she was in DS). If Willow drops her lighter and a character other than Willow picks it up (or if the Willow that picks it up already has a Willow's Lighter), it becomes a normal torch. If Willow has no Lighter, when the player makes a Torch or picks up a torch, it magically becomes Willow's Lighter. (also, no cooking on a Lighter, that's just stupid...)

2) "Immune to fire damage."

Give Willow her Fire Immunity back. Willow should have 100% immunity to fire. Fire is a rare damage source that makes the immunity an extremely niche power, and requires a lot of time and investment in order to leverage (ie: fire farms). The Firefly fight is the only fight where her fire immunity could give Willow's player any real advantage, otherwise fire is a very dangerous weapon, because it tends to destroy loot.

3) "Lights fires when nervous."

Give Willow her Pyromania back. Willow should set random fires when low on Sanity. I know, this is desperately unpopular, but hear me out here. One, fire mechanics in DST are a LOT different than they were in DS. Fires spread slowly, and provide a lot of time for players to get out of the way or fight fires, if they want. Tech like Fling-o-matics help protect bases and other critical resources from fires, so her negative is manageable...

4) I honestly don't care what you do with Bernie the Bear. Dump it. Keep it. Whatever...

Okay, that's what I'm asking, what I'm offering...

1) Willow's Lighter. To get the Lighter, maybe, like Wigfrid won't eat anything but meat, Willow won't use Torches. So if the player wants a light source better than her Lighter, they'll have to make a Mining Hat or a Lantern, but torches are just out for Willow. Also @ZorrerTheZmith suggested that torches should burn out faster when Willow is using them. Maybe torches burn brighter, but lots faster for Willow, making her infinite Lighter much more efficient for her?

2) Willow's Fire Immunity. Maybe, Willow takes Sanity damage from cold, making Winter harder, or wet, making Spring and rain significantly harder. Alternatively, because this could create problems with her Pyromania, she gets slower when cold or wet, but this could replace her pyromania fire setting.

3) Willow's Pyromania. Maybe Willow's Flames are cold, rather than hot. Maybe rather than spreading, she merely burns things that are valuable, not merely flammable, causing it to break into Ash, Charcoal, and maybe component gold or gems, obviously fewer than were necessary to replace whatever she burned. Perhaps the fire she starts at low Sanity is a black flame that sprouts shadow crawlers, etc. Maybe she sets alot of endothermic fires that cool her down, but don't spread. There's a lot of alternatives, but she needs to "start fires". A pyromaniac that doesn't start fires is like a kleptomaniac that doesn't steal. It's NORMAL.

4) Bernie, again, I don't care. I really don't like the Bernie thing, but I'm indifferent.

Basically, the long of it is this: Willow sucks.

1) She doesn't do anything that anyone else can't do. Wigfrid and Wolfgang are the undisputed power combat characters. Wickerbottom and Maxwell are the best utility characters. Even Wendy is great at farming spiders.

2) Willow's Lighter is QUICKLY obsolete. Crockpots make vastly better food than cooking on her Lighter, and Firepits are a day 3-4 thing. The materials needed to make her Lighter are more valuable for other things, Torches are too easy to make and a better light source. By the time materials (gold) are disposable to make a replacement Lighter, the Lantern and Miner Hat both provide VASTLY superior and are easily refuelable. The ONLY advantage Willow's Lighter has is Sanity maintenance, and it does so badly. Remove its durability.

3) Fire Immunity is part of what made "The Firestarter" unique. Giving her "fire resistance" is like giving away a new used car on a game show. "Well, it's new to you, right!" just isn't the same. Don't Thrift Shop me, bro.

4) Willow's pyromania is a challenge. I get it. It's unpopular in a group play setting. Characters like Wigfrid's only downside is technically an upside for everyone else (one less person eating from the farms). But, once again, having a pyromaniac that doesn't actually set fires isn't a pyromaniac. It's kind of necessary to pyromania. You can't call Willow "The Firestarter" if she doesn't actually start any fires. Fix it.

5) Also, I'd still like to see a "Classic Characters" option in the Server settings, that allows hosts and players play DST with the original DS style characters.

#MakeWillowGreatAgain

-Fist-

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On 9/24/2017 at 9:31 PM, FistfulOfZen said:

I'd love to see the player statistics and player time statistics of the various characters to see who gets and doesn't get play, but let's talk about Willow, again. I know, I know. It's been done a lot, maybe even to death, but if you don't want to read ANOTHER thread about Willow, GOOD NEWS! There's other threads! I know, WEIRD! You can just ignore this one. It is actually possible, I know. I've done it!

Anyhow, so, Willow is broken. By now we all know her abilities and weaknesses, and she's boring sauce. Sorry, she is, so, no long arguments for or against (at least for now), let's just get to the brass tacks.

1) Give Willow her Lighter back. Willow should start the game with Willow's Lighter in her inventory. It should have no durability. It should restore her sanity at +6.25 Sanity/min. If Willow drops her lighter and a character other than Willow picks it up (or if the Willow that picks it up already has a Willow's Lighter), it becomes a normal torch. If Willow has no Lighter, when the player makes a Torch or picks up a torch, it magically becomes Willow's Lighter. (also, no cooking on a Lighter, that's just stupid...)

2) Give Willow her Fire Immunity back. Willow should have 100% immunity to fire. Fire is a rare damage source that makes the immunity an extremely niche power, and requires a lot of time and investment in order to leverage (ie: fire farms). The Firefly fight is the only fight where her fire immunity could give Willow's player any real advantage, otherwise fire is a very dangerous weapon, because it tends to destroy loot.

3) Give Willow her Pyromania back. Willow should set random fires when low on Sanity. I know, this is desperately unpopular, but hear me out here. One, fire mechanics in DST are a LOT different than they were in DS. Fires spread slowly, and provide a lot of time for players to get out of the way or fight fires, if they want. Tech like Fling-o-matics help protect bases and other critical resources from fires, so her negative is manageable.

4) I honestly don't care what you do with Bernie the Bear. Dump it. Keep it. Whatever...

Okay, that's what I'm asking, what I'm offering...

1) Willow's Lighter. To get the Lighter, maybe, like Wigfrid won't eat anything but meat, Willow won't use Torches. So if the player wants a light source better than her Lighter, they'll have to make a Mining Hat or a Lantern, but torches are just out for Willow.

2) Willow's Fire Immunity. Maybe, Willow takes Sanity damage from cold, making Winter harder, or wet, making Spring and rain significantly harder. Alternatively, because this could create problems with her Pyromania, she gets slower when cold or wet.

3) Willow's Pyromania. Maybe Willow's Flames are cold, rather than hot. Maybe rather than spreading, she merely burns things that are valuable, not merely flammable, causing it to break into Ash, Charcoal, and maybe component gold or gems, obviously fewer than were necessary to replace whatever she burned. Perhaps the fire she starts at low Sanity is a black flame that sprouts shadow crawlers, etc. Maybe she sets alot of endothermic fires that cool her down, but don't spread. There's a lot of alternatives, but she needs to "start fires". A pyromaniac that doesn't start fires is like a kleptomaniac that doesn't steal. It's NORMAL.

4) Bernie, again, I don't care. I really don't like the Bernie thing, but I'm indifferent.

Basically, the long of it is this: Willow sucks.

1) She doesn't do anything that anyone else can't do. Wigfrid and Wolfgang are the undisputed power combat characters. Wickerbottom and Maxwell are the best utility characters. Even Wendy is great at farming spiders.

2) Willow's Lighter is QUICKLY obsolete. Crockpots make vastly better food than cooking on her Lighter, and Firepits are a day 3-4 thing. The materials needed to make her Lighter are more valuable for other things, Torches are too easy to make and a better light source. By the time materials (gold) are disposable to make a replacement Lighter, the Lantern and Miner Hat both provide VASTLY superior and are easily refuelable. The ONLY advantage Willow's Lighter has is Sanity maintenance, and it does so badly. Remove its durability.

3) Fire Immunity is part of what made "The Firestarter" unique. Giving her "fire resistance" is like giving away a new used car on a game show. "Well, it's new to you, right!" just isn't the same. Don't Thrift Shop me, bro.

4) Willow's pyromania is a challenge. I get it. It's unpopular in a group play setting. Characters like Wigfrid's only downside is technically an upside for everyone else (one less person eating from the farms). But, once again, having a pyromaniac that doesn't actually set fires isn't a pyromaniac. It's kind of necessary to pyromania. You can't call Willow "The Firestarter" if she doesn't actually start any fires. Fix it.

5) Also, I'd still like to see a "Classic Characters" option in the Server settings, that allows hosts and players play DST with the original DS style characters.

#MakeWillowGreatAgain

-Fist-

1) I don't know about this...  Too much sanity for Willow to be honest.  Also with the torch thing...  Does it turn into a torch or just get the durability for one.  If it's just the durability of one then it's useless because it's a smaller pool of light with the same durability as a torch.  Might as well just pick two pieces of grass and torch real quick to make it.

2) I agree.  I don't understand why they took it in the first place.  They nerfed her so bad that she's between Wilson and Wes.

3) F*ck no!  I would rather not to be honest and it's one thing I'm glad they took away.  I don't miss it.

2) I don't want her pyromania back with insanity.  It's annoying and I'm glad they got rid of it.  What is with pro players wanting the game harder for everyone else?  Like I said in another post, the game is hard enough for new players/noobs as it is.  Do you really want to make it harder for them?  Just make your specific world harsher (and put a warning).

1) so why suggest things that would make her character a pain to use?  "Give her a change to gain sanity faster and fire immunity, but make it easier for her to be insane and make her burn stuff."  I don't know...  It's like slowing down Wolfgang's hunger drain but saying he has to eat more of something than others to get the same amount of hunger (like 2 meatballs for 90 hunger).

5) I agree with this.  I guess they nerfed some of them since people are coming together.  (Like you probably won't need to have an infinite amount of Webber eggs, especially since trolls might spam them)

I could do without that hashtag to be honest.

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9 hours ago, LuxuryHeart said:

1) I don't know about this...  Too much sanity for Willow to be honest.  Also with the torch thing...  Does it turn into a torch or just get the durability for one.  If it's just the durability of one then it's useless because it's a smaller pool of light with the same durability as a torch.  Might as well just pick two pieces of grass and torch real quick to make it.

You must not play Willow often. +10 Sanity/min isn't enough Sanity generation to recover Sanity lost from darkness during Dusk/Night. Willow starts with one of the lowest pools of Sanity (120) in the game, and presently has one of the highest costs for being insane.

The Lighter turns into a torch. I don't think you're understanding what's happening here. If Willow picks up a Torch, it becomes her Lighter, IF she doesn't already have a Lighter. If she drops her Lighter, it stays a Lighter. If someone else picks up her Lighter (not Willow), then it becomes a Torch. If they drop the Torch, it stays a Torch. If Willow has a Lighter, and picks up another Lighter, it becomes a Torch.

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2) I agree.  I don't understand why they took it in the first place.  They nerfed her so bad that she's between Wilson and Wes.

;)

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3) F*ck no!  I would rather not to be honest and it's one thing I'm glad they took away.  I don't miss it.

2) I don't want her pyromania back with insanity.  It's annoying and I'm glad they got rid of it.  What is with pro players wanting the game harder for everyone else?  Like I said in another post, the game is hard enough for new players/noobs as it is.  Do you really want to make it harder for them?  Just make your specific world harsher (and put a warning).

1) so why suggest things that would make her character a pain to use?  "Give her a change to gain sanity faster and fire immunity, but make it easier for her to be insane and make her burn stuff."  I don't know...  It's like slowing down Wolfgang's hunger drain but saying he has to eat more of something than others to get the same amount of hunger (like 2 meatballs for 90 hunger).

Please read the suggestion again. You clearly didn't understand what was written. Also "noobs" shouldn't be the standard that should be applied when determining the difficulty of a character. Why should experienced players who have invested hours into learning how to play Willow be punished just, because some kid picked her because "she's cute" burns a server down. How fire works in DST is significantly different than it was in DS, or even when DST was first released. Also, Flingomatics are a thing. And I also suggested different ways to implement her pyromania rather than simply setting fires. The relative difficulties of the characters should be noted. Willow should be a challenging character.

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5) I agree with this.  I guess they nerfed some of them since people are coming together.  (Like you probably won't need to have an infinite amount of Webber eggs, especially since trolls might spam them)

Trolls already spam Webber's eggs. Willow's just a terribly broken character, that has no good strengths, and an extremely mediocre strength (Bernie) that requires her to be vulnerable to her terrible weakness. That's just not a good character design. The things that used to define her were her Lighter, which presently is basically pointless now, and her Pyromania, which was difficult, but manageable, if you knew what you were doing, no, you don't have to be a "pro player" to know what you're doing.

I don't believe any of the changes here are game breaking, though I understand the problems with Pyromania, but there are ways to mitigate the damage Pyromania poses.

Thank you for the feedback! :D

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idk i think willow should get her full fire immunity back plus the ability to set inventory items on fire again (but removing the ability to give burning items to other players outside of pvp)

at first that sounds dumb, but actually being able to set inventory items on fire is more useful than you think if you've played willow in RoG

also this is really easy to do, Klei only needs to change a few lines of code for this to work

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I think Willow is kinda fine:

Bernie makes it slightly easier to get nightmare fuel and can help you get out of tight situations (if you are fighting a monster while insane, it can come in handy, although it might be hard to get enough time to drop the Bernie). Bad thing is that the ways of destroying it is by using the deconstruction staff or being stolen by Krampus; which is annoying if you craft too many of them for whatever reason.

Her freezing insanity, while being a pain in winter, and possibly spring if you are wet, is a godsend for summer, where you can just go insane and not need a thermal stone for the entire season, while also farming for nightmare fuel. And paired with Bernie is not like she would need to care that much for being in constant danger of nightmare creatures. And with Winona and her trusty tape (a cheaper version of the sewing kit) we can see a new synergy team rising, although this is mostly an idea, I don't know how actually good those 2 are together.

Her lighter, while underwhelming, is specially useful for cooking, which makes scouting much easier at the start of the game (or even for the caves). My only problem is it's recipe: 1 rope, 1 gold, and 3 petals; it literally requires a science machine (or Wickerbottom) because of the rope, and even if it costed 3 cut grass instead of the rope, that gold is equivalent to a science machine anyway, I wish it actually costed 3 cutgrass, 1 nitre, and 3 petals, that way you can craft it for your teammates and that way cover more ground faster, and without the need of the science machine.

Not that she is completely fine, but she is playable.

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I appreciate your feedback, but let's step back and look at what you're saying...

Basically, you seem to agree that Willow's abilities are useful for basically the first 3-5 days of play, but then drop off, right? Because that's what I'm getting from your post. Her ability to cook food with the lighter is redundant to Firepits and made almost totally obsolete by Crock Pots. Her light source, the weakest in the game, is made obsolete by Mining Hats and Lanterns. Both of those I've asserted as problems. After you have a Crock Pot (by day 7-10), why would you ever need to "cook food" ever again, and why would you NOT use a Fire Pit, since you have to be by it at night anyway?

For 2 of the most challenging seasons, long nights and then constant wetness make her weakness (freezing to death) even more dangerous, and it remains dangerous all other seasons and when in the caves. In summer, you're suggesting Willow players run around insane all the time? Even if we disregard the fact that tunning around permanently insane is not only not a feasible strategy for any character, let alone Willow, you don't seem to understand that Willow can and will freeze to death in Summer, too. Not to mention Willow went from one of the strongest Cave explorers to the absolute weakest, because the constant Sanity drain in caves constantly imperils her safety.

I think it's kind of obvious that you don't play Willow very much, if at all, because all of this theory crafting is what I'd expect from someone that doesn't have much experience actually playing her, and I don't blame you, because most people don't now since she sucks pretty badly (on par with Wes). I suggest you go play Willow and try to survive an entire year without raising her Sanity above 30 and never standing near Fire Pits for heat, because, by your theory, you won't need them. I think you really should experience what you're suggesting first, because you don't seem to have an accurate grasp of her mechanics and drawbacks.

-Fist-

 

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On 9/29/2017 at 12:26 AM, JohnWatson said:

what

Wes has 113 Hunger and Health, but 150 Sanity (more than Willow, who has 120). His hunger, even though it drains 25% faster, is quickly irrelevant to any player who isn't new or incompetent. I successfully build bases that can feed between 2 to 3 players easily, so if Wes's hunger mechanics are going to kill you, then you were probably going to die anyway.

Wes does 25% less damage. Okay, but he still has more HP than Maxwell (75), and while this adds a little challenge to Wes, it merely just extends the length of a battle, not really make it any more dangerous.

Willow's lighter is IRRELEVANT as a bonus, again, it is obsolete as soon as she puts down a Fire Pit, and is inferior to a torch. And building a Miner's Hat or a Lantern makes her lighter totally obsolete. It is literally a weak torch that has very little point in replacing, and saves you the effort of using two twigs and two cut grass (to make a torch).

Willow's fire "resistance" comes into play exactly how often? In two boss fights, and only marginally? Sure, it's a bonus, but it's marginal.

Bernie is arguably her only good "perk". Yes, it makes farming shadow monsters easier, but it's not like it was really that hard. Also, she has to be insane, thus putting herself into danger in order to use it.

Her weakness directly causes her to die, yes, including in Summer. Hers is the only weakness of all the characters that poses a direct threat to her life. That's hardly balanced out by a Lighter that's obsolete by the first Hound Wave or a bear that tanks easy to manage shadow creatures or a very situational and weak fire resistance. That's one irrelevant bonus and two situational bonuses for a life threatening weakness, one of which is only useful when she's insane enough to be in danger of freezing.

Also, it makes the caves very dangerous for her, making extended fights, such as Toad or Guardian and Nightmare Cycles difficult, because her Sanity draining could lead to death, completely unconnected to the threat posed by being in the caves and the monsters themselves.

Wes's weaknesses don't exacerbate caves, cave fights, or even boss fights.

Could you make a case that Wes is "harder" to play than Willow? Sure, you probably could, but I think I've made my case that, at the very least, Willow is not much better off than Wes, so the use of the words "on par with" isn't necessarily far off the mark.

I do appreciate the feedback.

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8 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

Wes has 113 Hunger and Health, but 150 Sanity (more than Willow, who has 120). His hunger, even though it drains 25% faster, is quickly irrelevant to any player who isn't new or incompetent. I successfully build bases that can feed between 2 to 3 players easily, so if Wes's hunger mechanics are going to kill you, then you were probably going to die anyway.

max hunger is well more important than max sanity

insanity's effects happen under 15% of max sanity, which means it doesn't matter how much max sanity you have
this also means that lower max sanity makes it easier to control your sanity

anybody who leaves their base knows that max hunger is something to care about, since hunger is basically food that doesn't spoil and doesn't take up inventory space
higher max hunger means you can explore longer without having to go and find food
for example, after a trip where you have ran out of food, you still have your max hunger to rely on while you look for more food or when returning to a base to get more
most characters have 16 minutes of max hunger, including willow
meanwhile wes only has 9.64 minutes of it, not to mention that eating food as wes is less effective because of his inherent hunger mult

8 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

Wes does 25% less damage. Okay, but he still has more HP than Maxwell (75), and while this adds a little challenge to Wes, it merely just extends the length of a battle, not really make it any more dangerous.

because of wes's lower max health and lower damage mult, he can't facetank as much as other characters like wigfrid or even waxwell

wes always dies trying to facetank deerclops (arguably a boss that's best facetanked) without a good amount of healing items

8 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

Willow's lighter is IRRELEVANT as a bonus, again, it is obsolete as soon as she puts down a Fire Pit, and is inferior to a torch. And building a Miner's Hat or a Lantern makes her lighter totally obsolete. It is literally a weak torch that has very little point in replacing, and saves you the effort of using two twigs and two cut grass (to make a torch).

yeah, but nothing to do with wes

8 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

Willow's fire "resistance" comes into play exactly how often? In two boss fights, and only marginally? Sure, it's a bonus, but it's marginal.

it's only useful in pvp scenarios pretty much, and again nothing to do with wes

8 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

Bernie is arguably her only good "perk". Yes, it makes farming shadow monsters easier, but it's not like it was really that hard. Also, you have to be insane, thus putting herself into danger in order to use it.

yeah, but again this has nothing to do with wes

8 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

Her weakness directly causes her to die, yes, including in Summer. Her's is the only weakness of all the characters that poses a direct threat to her life. That's hardly balanced out by a Lighter that's obsolete by the first Hound Wave or a bear that tanks easy to manage shadow creatures or a very situational and weak fire resistance. That's one irrelevant bonus and two situational bonuses for a life threatening weakness, one of which is only useful when she's insane enough to be in danger of freezing.

Also, it makes the caves very dangerous for her, making extended fights, such as Toad or Guardian and Nightmare Cycles difficult, because her Sanity draining could lead to death, completely unconnected to the threat posed by being in the caves and the monsters themselves.

anyone who says that willow's freezing downside is very severe has never played willow, it's almost nonexistent

it only freezes you when wet and at 0 sanity, according to someone who plays her, and it actually helps a lot with summer heat, according to my own tests

8 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

Wes's weaknesses don't exacerbate caves, cave fights, or even boss fights.

what

8 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

Could you make a case that Wes is "harder" to play than Willow? Sure, you probably could, but I think I've made my case that, at the very least, Willow is not much better off than Wes, so the use of the words "on par with" isn't necessarily far off the mark.

willow is better than wilson

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On 10/2/2017 at 8:52 AM, JohnWatson said:

max hunger is well more important than max sanity

insanity's effects happen under 15% of max sanity, which means it doesn't matter how much max sanity you have
this also means that lower max sanity makes it easier to control your sanity

Ah, no. You don't seem to understand how Sanity loss works in the game. During Dusk and Night, Sanity drains at 5 Sanity per minute, not a percentage basis. Between Wes and Willow, if neither does anything to deal with sanity drain, Willow will go insane first, every time, all things being equal. Why? Because Willow can lose 102 Sanity, then she goes insane. Wes can lose 127 Sanity, before going insane. Go ahead and test it, you'll find that I'm right 100% of the time on this.

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anybody who leaves their base knows that max hunger is something to care about, since hunger is basically food that doesn't spoil and doesn't take up inventory space
higher max hunger means you can explore longer without having to go and find food
for example, after a trip where you have ran out of food, you still have your max hunger to rely on while you look for more food or when returning to a base to get more
most characters have 16 minutes of max hunger, including willow
meanwhile wes only has 9.64 minutes of it, not to mention that eating food as wes is less effective because of his inherent hunger mult

Solution. Carry food with you. No, seriously, you can do this. Yeah, Wes has to eat food more steadily, but, again, ONE KOALAFANT will be enough to keep him alive for days. Combine Wes with practically any of the strong characters (eg: Wolfgang or Wigfrid, especially since she doesn't eat anything that isn't meat) and it's a completely irrelevant point.

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because of wes's lower max health and lower damage mult, he can't facetank as much as other characters like wigfrid or even waxwell

wes always dies trying to facetank deerclops (arguably a boss that's best facetanked) without a good amount of healing items

Uh, practically every character in the game, except for Wolfgang and Wigfrid, has trouble facetanking any boss. I'm not sure arguing a really dumb way to fight bosses proves your point, or provides any useful point of comparison. Klei didn't design bosses for players to try to face tank them.

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yeah, but nothing to do with wes

it's only useful in pvp scenarios pretty much, and again nothing to do with wes

yeah, but again this has nothing to do with wes

I'm not sure you understand how logical arguments work. Those are all points that describe how Willow's abilities are objectively obsolete early in the game (you haven't refuted) or aren't particularly useful (you also haven't refuted). Not sure why anyone would play DST PVP. It's like playing Legos PVP, in my opinion. It's almost a non-sequitur.

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anyone who says that willow's freezing downside is very severe has never played willow, it's almost nonexistent

You've never played her. Also, "almost nonexistent" isn't the same thing as "nonexistent". That's not a refutation, it's a deflection. The same defense can be made of practically every character's weaknesses, but doesn't make the statement "her weakness can kill her" any less true.

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it only freezes you when wet and at 0 sanity, according to someone who plays her, and it actually helps a lot with summer heat, according to my own tests

You haven't played her. Please, dude, now you're just trying to appeal to authority.

1) Your "source" doesn't know what they're talking about. She begins to lose body temperature as soon as she's "insane". She will continue to lose body temperature until she begins to freeze to death, until her sanity raises above insanity or she stands next to a fire.

2) She can and will freeze to death in Summer. Yes, you don't overheat... because you're freezing to death. That's what "cannot maintain body heat" means. If you mean Willow can do this little dance of going insane, lowering her body temperature dangerously, then go sane again, and use that to control her temperature? Sure, you can do that. It's a ridiculously overcomplicated way to deal with heat, but yes, you can do that. OR... you could just carry a thermal stone like everyone else, and not have to waste time juggling Sanity.

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what

Reread what I wrote, instead of skimming past it or dismissing it. You don't main Willow, so you really don't know what you're talking about. If you did, you'd know what I was talking about. Willow used to be one of the best cavers in the game. Now she's terrible at it.

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willow is better than wilson

Better than the guy that gets free beard hair, gains sanity when he farms that beard hair, free insulation in winter while growing that beard hair, and has no weaknesses, let alone one that actually threatens his life? Sure, dude. Willow is better than Wilson... except she has a piece of obsolete gear not worth remaking and inferior to basic torches, a fairly useless resistance that may reduce fire damage she takes by single digits over the course of 100 days in game, a gimmick bear to fight already easy to fight nightmare creatures, even though Wigfrid is also objectively better at farming nightmare creatures and doesn't have to do so while standing next to a fire pit just to not die, and she also has weakness that can literally kill her, complicating ANY fight involving an insanity aura.

Why? Because guys who don't main her, or even really know how to play her, think she's "fine".

Either or, thanks for the feedback, but you and I both know we're going to have to agree to disagree. One of us plays Willow. The other tinkers with her.

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@klei, you know Willow's play statistics, including how long she's played by players and their playtimes. If Willow's numbers are trending below the other characters, then you have all the information you need to know Willow's broken. She went from one of the MOST played characters to one of the least. If I'm wrong, hey, I'm wrong. You have the data. I don't. But if I'm right, and I believe from basic observations on different servers that I am, all I'm asking you to do is #MakeWillowGreatAgain.

I believe I've provided a fair framework for her restoration. I don't see a lot of resistance to these ideas except for the fire starting, which is, yes, controversial, however, the fire mechanics in the game are drastically different than they were, and fire mods abound. I've also presented alternatives that restore "the Firestarter" to someone that actually starts fires in ways that don't necessarily cause havoc and destruction. Either or, if players are working together and helping other players manage their needs (like they are supposed to), then Willow's fire starting negatives shouldn't really be an issue.

Willow was one of the best and HARDEST characters to survive with. The greatest challenge Willow suffers is that many players just don't want a character to be hard, and Willow was hard. It also didn't help that a lot of trolls and, sorry not sorry, just plain stupid people played her (the kind that set fires just to set fires, whether or not they intended to cause harm). Most of those people don't even play DST anymore, or video games of any kind, I imagine. Too many people picked Willow because "she was cute", without any clue how hard she was to play.

Part of that was YOUR fault, klei, for not putting a warning that she was deceptively hard character to survive with, and not for the feint of heart or stupid of head. Now she's just boring and bad. Please. Do the right thing. Make Willow Great Again.

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Willow's temperature loss is a bit more complicated than just losing body temperature over time.

Her "Freezes while insane" perk/downside works like this. When Willow's sanity lowers below 35% (42 sanity) her perceived body temperature begins to lower at a linear rate to a maximum of 20 degrees below her current body temperature. The sanity chills themselves cannot bring her below freezing temperature and will instead stop lowering body temperature 1 degree above freezing. This essentially makes sanity chills a non issue unless it's raining.

So it' pretty unlikely you would be able to freeze during Summer because of her chills.

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On 10/3/2017 at 3:15 PM, FistfulOfZen said:

Most of those people don't even play DST anymore, or video games of any kind, I imagine. Too many people picked Willow because "she was cute", without any clue how hard she was to play.

Part of that was YOUR fault, klei, for not putting a warning that she was deceptively hard character to survive with, and not for the feint of heart or stupid of head. Now she's just boring and bad. Please. Do the right thing. Make Willow Great Again.

This really makes you sound like a troll. I’ve never found Williow hard but you can blame Kiel for making her boring. But you are being rather aggressive to different opinions. 

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I agree with the fire immunity back as it would fit the character perfectly. Although I dont dislike the mechanic suggested for the lighter, it is too similar to Lucy the axe mechanic in dst, why not make the lighter more unique and useful? Like giving it torch light radius, and if held by willow it will not lose durability. I also think cooking on the lighter is fine as it is.

+10 sanity a min is even more than maxwell's sanity buff, its more than a tam, and it is enough to counter dusk/dawn sanity loss and still regenerate sanity. Even with a night armor during the day it would completely negate sanity loss. I'm fine with the current way her sanity restores with fire honestly, a lighter giving this amount would be too much.

Im definately against the fires when insane being back, fires are a mess normally and having a character that does that out of control would replace willow's current status of a "suspicious" character pick, to make her full fledged the most hated character and insta banned of games as they join. New players do pick willow, and they will burn everyhing even if its not what they intended to do. Its not like since you have that con only pros will use her, heck, with that i think even pros will avoid her as well.

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Not a Willow player but allow me to throw in my two cents.

Fire immunity should return, it´s too iconic. However, by that logic she should be immune to overheating, which could be compensated by her having less natural insulation, thus having a harder time in winter but easier in summer.

Her lighter could be exclusive to her (like Lucy to Woodie) and have no durability. On one hand, this would probably bring back the issue with griefers; on the other hand, griefers will be griefers with or without that. That´s another can of worms.

By what I´ve read, I agree that her lighter is kinda pointless, which is a pity. I mean, imagine Lucy being worse than the average axe in every aspect.

All in all, I´m neither a dev nor a Willow player, so I may be talking a lot of BS here. The thing is, I like the lore a lot and all those things make Willow seem less like herself.

PS: Bernie is neat IMO

PPS: In case of her lighter being exclusive, the explanation could be either:

1 - Willow has actual pyrokinectic powers of which she is not consciously aware. The lighter does not work on its own, but it has personal significance to her, which allows her to manifest her powers at will (in her head she´s just turning it on, but the fire comes from herself). Other characters trying to use it would just mention how it doesn´t work.

2 - The lighter is too hot to the touch, so only Willow can hold it thanks to her heat immunity.

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10 hours ago, ZorrerTheZmith said:

By what I´ve read, I agree that her lighter is kinda pointless, which is a pity. I mean, imagine Lucy being worse than the average axe in every aspect.

Do not let it fool you. The lighter is amazing for cooking (literally a portable fire pit that needs no fuel to cook things in it), and in a pinch can save you from Charlie (if your torch burns out and you do not have the materials to craft another, or you don't have time to craft another because hounds are hunting you down on the middle of the night), and you can share it with friends. Of course, I do not recommend it over a torch for light source, but I do recommend it over a fire pit for cooking.

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8 hours ago, pedregales said:

Do not let it fool you. The lighter is amazing for cooking (literally a portable fire pit that needs no fuel to cook things in it), and in a pinch can save you from Charlie (if your torch burns out and you do not have the materials to craft another, or you don't have time to craft another because hounds are hunting you down on the middle of the night), and you can share it with friends. Of course, I do not recommend it over a torch for light source, but I do recommend it over a fire pit for cooking.

That´s interesting, thanks for pointing that up. In this case, I second what ShadowDuelist said:

23 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Although I dont dislike the mechanic suggested for the lighter, it is too similar to Lucy the axe mechanic in dst, why not make the lighter more unique and useful? Like giving it torch light radius, and if held by willow it will not lose durability. I also think cooking on the lighter is fine as it is.

That way you could still share it with friends and keep it kinda-sorta "Willow exclusive".

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I totally agree. I used to main Willow, but she is nerfed so bad that I have to switch to another character and I even feel the need to tell everybody not to choose her. Klei please, make her worth to choose, you made the effort to design and create her, don't dump her like that.

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Thanks for the feedback, guys.

As I've posted, I'm not a fan of cooking on the lighter, and if it stands between Willow's Lighter being free of durability, it's one of the first things I'm going to ditch and happily. Have I used it in this function? Yes. Did I ever go "I wish I could cook on my lighter!" before Willow's nerf? Nope, not even once. I still think it's a stupid idea, and, post getting a base up (eg: Fire Pits and Crock Pots), it's totally obsolete. That said, if Willow's Lighter can be changed to be free of durability (and the other changes are made to make her not a totally worthless character), but the ability to cook on the Lighter remains, I am fine with that, though I will always think it's a stupid power.

My goal is to #MakeWillowGreatAgain.

I've thrown ideas out there that would make Willow fun to play, playing up her pyromania and her obsession with fire and her Lighter. I know where people are coming from with wanting her Lighter to have more light (and I'm fine if Klei would buff it to that point, too), but I'd take free of durability over bigger light radius any day of the week. If it means I have to be more careful bumping around in the dark with Willow, I'm perfectly fine with that. Everyone that mained Willow pretty much learned to be careful running around in the dark to begin with (love running into spider nests in the dark, am I rite!?).

@ZorrerTheZmith, I really dig your idea with the Lighter being a "conduit" for her pyrotechnic ability, like Lucy the Axe is a "conduit" for Woodie's "werebeaver" thing, or books are a "conduit" for Wickerbottom's librarian witchcraft". Willow's Lighter really ought to be exclusive to Willow. I believe this so much so that I'd be willing to give up the use of Torches just to have Willow's Lighter to be exclusive and free of durability for balance issues.

Her fire immunity, I believe, is something I think there is wide agreement on. I don't think heat immunity is necessary, though I really like the argument made for it, and it seems like an interesting trade off (easier Summer, harder Winter), though the opposite argument could also be made. I'm fine having to build Endothermic Fires to keep cool if Fire Immunity is restored.

Now, about her firestarting... I really don't know what people are talking about when they say "pros". It's called knowing how to play the game. Do you know how to manage Sanity? Do you know how to build a Fling-o-Matic? Then, congrats, because, apparently, you're a "pro" at playing DST... not sure how you get paid to play DST, but that's what people are saying. I have suggested a lot of different ways her firestarting can be reimplemented without being such a dirtbag punishment, but let's look at how fires work in the game right now.

1) Fires spread very slowly.

2) Fire spread can be turned off via modding.

3) Fire protection can be turned on via modding.

4) Fling-O-Matics is a 100% protection from base fires.

5) Klei needs to put warnings on the characters that are hard to play. Willow is hard to play.

Now, as far as her sanity not causing her to definitely freeze to death?

@Weird Wanderer makes a fair point, but Winter and Spring and early Summer and much of Autumn, rain is 100% going to happen, and it's going to happen a lot. It does also rain in the middle and late Summer. Willow's weakness makes rain extremely dangerous, because it causes the problem that can kill her and then proceeds to kill her. And rain happens a lot more than wild fires ever will. As I said before, it's still easier to just use a Thermal Stone to keep warm, and not have to deal with the constant nightmare attacks. I built a fridge specifically for thermal stones in Summer. In any respect, her weakness is really ridiculous, especially when we consider that no other character has any such direct low Sanity downsides. Other characters negatives affect Sanity (or Hunger or Health). Their loss of Sanity does not further negatively affect the character.

But let's look at the potential replacements. What if, as a Pyromaniac, she instead loses Sanity when NOT holding her Lighter (or other fire) or near things she qualifies as fire (cooking Crock Pot, Fire Pit, Endothermic Fire, etc.)? I don't particularly like it, but it would fit better with her pyromania than what she's got now.

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7 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

I'd be willing to give up the use of Torches just to have Willow's Lighter to be exclusive and free of durability for balance issues.

This, too, could be explained by lore: her natural pyrokinesis makes torches burn up much faster when she holds them, making use of torches impractical for Willow. I also think that infinite lighter with smaller light radius is a reasonable trade off.

 

7 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

Other characters negatives affect Sanity (or Hunger or Health). Their loss of Sanity does not further negatively affect the character.

That´s a very good point. What if it was reversed? If instead of going cold when insane, she got more insane when cold? Just throwing that out there.

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I've considered that option, @ZorrerTheZmith. I don't like it only because it doesn't really say to me "Willow is a pyromaniac". I'd like for her weakness to be related to "neurotic obsession with fire", if not "compulsive starting of fire". And while the idea of her losing sanity faster when cold isn't bad, and would actually be a reasonable weakness, in my mind, it could apply to anyone that just hates being cold, not necessarily a pyromaniac. Granted, it's still a better weakness than what's Willow's got now, so I'd take it.

I really like the idea of torches burning up faster, though. Maybe a brighter burn, but they burn two to four times as fast, making her infinite Lighter a much better option, long term, yeah. She could go "Tee hee!", "Oops!", or "Burn burn!" every time a Torch flares brightly, because she's burning them out so fast.

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34 minutes ago, FistfulOfZen said:

I'd like for her weakness to be related to "neurotic obsession with fire", if not "compulsive starting of fire".

I see. In this case, how about she burning things from her inventory when insane? Starting with small things, like grass and twigs (individually, not the whole stack), then progressing to bigger ones. There would have some visual feedback to this, too, like Willow saying something and/or emitting a bit of light.

This way, she would still be compulsively burning things when insane, without griefing other players.

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