Xarian Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 Copper, Wolframite, you name it. Could we please use metal to make pipes? I mean, I understand why you don't want to let us make wires out of sandstone... but we should be able to use metal to make almost anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueLance Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 Thats a fair point, metal would be better for many things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michi01 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 55 minutes ago, Xarian said: Wolframite Isn't it already possible to build wolframite pipes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueLance Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 I thought it was but I am at work so I couldn't confirm. Didn't wanna say it was when it isn't etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 Liquid pipes can be made from wolframite. You should note however that there's generally no benefit from it. If you think that they'll be great at heat transfer because of the high thermal conductivity then think again. It's the lowest thermal conductivity of two substances that is used in the calculation so it makes no difference. What matters is specific heat capacity and mass per tile. And in that case granite wins. Wolframite is great for something you want to change temperature quickly relative to it's environment, like fast reacting thermal switches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaniel Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Metals make poor pipes if what you're looking for is heat transfer and exchange. The best material is sandstone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 9 minutes ago, Reaniel said: Metals make poor pipes if what you're looking for is heat transfer and exchange. The best material is sandstone. Pretty sure @Coolthulhu proved it was granite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolthulhu Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Just now, Saturnus said: Pretty sure @Coolthulhu proved it was granite. No, I only showed that granite and sandstone are both better than wolframite. Granite vs sandstone is still an open question. That depends on whether is lower conductivity used in ALL cases or just most of them - if lower conductivity is used in all cases, then sandstone is a tiny, tiny bit better. Otherwise granite is a tiny bit better. They are very similar though - any difference between them will be minimal, comparable to random noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 1 minute ago, Coolthulhu said: No, I only showed that granite and sandstone are both better than wolframite. Granite vs sandstone is still an open question. That depends on whether is lower conductivity used in ALL cases or just most of them - if lower conductivity is used in all cases, then sandstone is a tiny, tiny bit better. Otherwise granite is a tiny bit better. They are very similar though - any difference between them will be minimal, comparable to random noise. So to cut away the random noise the advice is to just use granite as there's far far far more of it on the map and it has better decor value? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaniel Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 44 minutes ago, Saturnus said: So to cut away the random noise the advice is to just use granite as there's far far far more of it on the map and it has better decor value? Decor wise, Granite isn't giving better bonus for pipes because pipes doesn't have a +/- decor value. I use sandstone for my liquefier and cooler setups because I just seem to have so much of it. Compare to Granite. So as a game strategy decision, I decided to save my granite for my floor tiles and decor items and use sandstone for my heat transfer pipes. (I also use Igneous Rock for all the non-essential pipes that doesn't require heat transfer or insulation). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xarian Posted September 14, 2017 Author Share Posted September 14, 2017 On 9/13/2017 at 8:32 AM, Coolthulhu said: No, I only showed that granite and sandstone are both better than wolframite. Granite vs sandstone is still an open question. That depends on whether is lower conductivity used in ALL cases or just most of them - if lower conductivity is used in all cases, then sandstone is a tiny, tiny bit better. Otherwise granite is a tiny bit better. They are very similar though - any difference between them will be minimal, comparable to random noise. How would things change if I was piping liquid mercury (from melted gold amalgam)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risu Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 36 minutes ago, Xarian said: How would things change if I was piping liquid mercury (from melted gold amalgam)? It'd use the pipe element for thermal conductivity for all elements except Wolframite and Tungsten. However, mercury has terrible specific heat capacity (third lowest of all liquids) so it won't contain much heat. Edit: Worth mention that both water and polluted water have lower thermal conductivity than most plumbable elements with the only one that matters being Abyssallite. So if you're hoping to avoid temperature spread, only use Abyssallite pipes. The rest are only good for SHC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolthulhu Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 18 hours ago, Xarian said: How would things change if I was piping liquid mercury (from melted gold amalgam)? I don't think it can be easily answered from what we know. The formula for temperature change depends rather strongly on heat capacity, so I'd still expect granite to beat wolframite, but I wouldn't bet on it. The best material could even depend on temperature difference. Someone would need to do science in debug mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaniel Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 Let's just assume in the simplest term that the heat transfer factor is going to be: (Specific Heat of Content) x (Specific Heat of Pipe) x (Lowest Thermal Conductivity of the two) Liquid Mercury + Wolframite Pipes: 0.14 x 0.134 x 8.3 = 0.156 Liquid Mercury + Granite Pipes: 0.14 x 0.79 x 3.39 = 0.375 So with Liquid Mercury, Granite Pipes should still, theoretically, perform better in terms of heat transfer at the "Content -> Pipe" stage. Then you have the whole issue with "Pipe -> Target Medium" heat transfer, which, in most cases, will probably favor Granite Pipes over Wolframite Pipes. I think the issue here is that Wolframite's low specific heat pretty much made it a bad material for heat transfer overall, in the current heat transfer system. The one good thing it's for is its high melting point, which, along with Abyssalite, made them the only two liquid pipe material capable of carrying most molten metals. So when we get to the refinement of metal and stuff, these two will be the only piping materials you can use. P.S. Just looking at random stuff, it appears that, if you are piping Molten Steel, Wolframite would make the best heat transfer pipes theoretically! The common materials would all melt, and the only two left standing (Igneous Rock and Obsidian) are inferior because of Steel's high conductivity. (But unless you're trying to heat more Molten Steel and maybe Molten Copper, anything else would make Igneous Rock and Obsidian better in the "Content -> Pipe" stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risu Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 10 minutes ago, Reaniel said: P.S. Just looking at random stuff, it appears that, if you are piping Molten Steel, Wolframite would make the best heat transfer pipes theoretically! Can technically consider Tungsten fair game for pipes as unlike all the other refined metals it has a material tag assigned to it. With higher thermal conductivity, melting point, and hardness, it is an all around better material. Just gotta reach 2931.85 C with Wolframite or 3426.85 C with Abyssallite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaniel Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 Lol you're right Risu... I guess it makes Wolframite only good for melting into Tungsten then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Plum Gate Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 So what is the deal with transfer then? is it ignoring the pipe material? or is it a branch dilemma where temperature is being transferred from inside the pipe to whatever is around it, then that's being transferred back to the pipe - or does it follow a more common sense approach, ..contents -> pipe wall -> surroundings. On 9/12/2017 at 10:45 AM, Saturnus said: It's the lowest thermal conductivity of two substances that is used in the calculation so it makes no difference. The problem here is that there's more than two substances at work on the equation in any given tile; those being any or all things of substance in that tile, it stands to reason that each tile is a collector of some thermal value by making the calculations of all materials and substances at work in the tile. Is that not happening? Is what you are saying regarding just the pipe and it's contents, and that the lowest thermal conductivity is used when calculating thermal transfer? All of the pipes sections weigh the same - 100kg, the largest mass of liquid that can go into a pipe section to be calculated is 10Kg. So right off the bat the pipe contents are 1/10th the mass and are already so any contents in the pipe will already have a lower thermal effective conductivity than the pipe just based on mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaniel Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 Mass only affects the amount of heat that's transferred. In ONI, it's not considered when determining the speed of said transfer. From the codes used in the game, there are several components that determines the speed of heat transfer, including the difference in temperature I believe. However, the most important variables are the specific heat of the two substances and the lower thermal conductivity of the two. Part of the calculation uses the product of all 3 numbers. This is why I used the product of all 3 for various scenarios in determining which one can transfer heat the "fastest". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risu Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 10 kg of Mercury at 100C in 20C non-insulated pipes changes pipe temperature in one second by... Wolframite: +10.44489C Tungsten: +10.44489C Abyssalite: 0C Sandstone: +0.6949158C Granite: +0.8167419C Polluted Water... Wolframite: +0.8619995C Tungsten: +0.8619995C Abyssalite: 0C Sandstone: +0.1448059C Granite: +0.146637C Crude Oil... Wolframite: +2.941956C Tungsten: +2.941956C Abyssalite: 0C Sandstone: +0.4985352C Granite: +0.5048523C Mercury in insulated pipe... Wolframite: +2.729065C Tungsten: +2.729065C Abyssalite: 0C Sandstone: +0.1741943C Granite: +0.204834C Molten Steel in insulated pipe at 0.25 seconds (1 sim step)... Wolframite: +1.399261C Tungsten: +5.597015C Abyssalite: 0C Sandstone: +0.0453186C Granite: +0.0536499C Molten Steel in insulated pipe in 10 cycles... Wolframite: +21.17987C Tungsten: +21.17969C Abyssalite: 0C Sandstone: +4.552032C Granite: +4.605957C If the 10 cycles happened all at once... Abyssalite: +0.0007629395C Edit: Think I got the specific heat capacity right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Plum Gate Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 @Risu, I know you may still be editing that above, but what are the pipes sitting in? Vacuum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risu Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 1 minute ago, The Plum Gate said: @Risu, I know you may still be editing that above, but what are the pipes sitting in? Vacuum? Took the code out of the game and I'm plugging numbers in. There is no interaction between the pipe contents and the environment. Only through the pipe itself. Would have to figure out the simulator side of the code for that interaction. Would be the same as every other building at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risu Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 Well this doesn't seem... right... 10 kg Water at geyser temperature in 20C insulated pipes after 1 cycle... Water temp on left, pipe on right. Wolframite: -13.51624C +52.66516C Tungsten: -13.51624C +52.66516C Abyssalite: 0C 0C Sandstone: -23.33798C +15.24203C Granite: -23.30057C +15.4101C Non-insulated... Wolframite: -4.523132C +70.39325C Tungsten: -4.523132C +70.39325C Abyssalite: 0C 0C Sandstone: -16.48618C +43.04526C Granite: -16.39758C +43.35568C 10 kg Water at 5C in 50C insulated pipes... Wolframite: +8.11087C -31.59222C Tungsten: +8.11087C -31.59222C Abyssalite: 0C 0C Sandstone: +13.99811C -9.143494C Granite: +13.97699C -9.245056C Non-insulated... Wolframite: +2.71463C -42.20172C Tungsten: +2.71463C -42.20172C Abyssalite: 0C 0C Sandstone: +9.891907C -25.82141C Granite: +9.838776C -26.00763C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 Ok. I ran a test. Everything was primed for 10 cycles first to get temps in vent etc equalized. Then everything was repainted in and run for 50 cycles. The below picture is the resulting temperatures after 50 cycles. I used Wolframite (W), Granite (G), Sandstone (S) pipes. It only runs through the static medium chambers with hotter or colder water. Everywhere else pipes are abyssalite. The outer 3 on each side has 2000g/s flow, and the inner 6 has 200g/s flow. It was surprising to me that flow rate didn't have any effect on the cooling/heating effect on the static medium. Wolframite was overall the worst performer but was better at cooling the static medium than granite. Sandstone performed the best or were tied for best in all cases. Interestingly, while granite was especially poor at cooling the static medium it was tied with sandstone for heating the static medium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaniel Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 I've run some additional tests with pipes, and... Let's just say the result is not what I expected. I did a simple liquid pipe radiator setup to see how Wolframite, Granite, and Sandstone fare compare to each other, using liquid oxygen. All the tiles are made of Abyssalite. Pipes are made with Wolframite, Granite, and Sandstone, for the sections inside the chamber. Other sections are made from Abyssalite. Scenario 1: 500kg Liquid Oxygen, -215C Vaccum Chamber (with pipes primed to -180C) Results: Wolframite: -202.4C (End Product Temp) Granite: -194.7C (End Product Temp) Sandstone: -194.6C (End Product Temp) Scenario 2: 500kg Liquid Oxygen, -215C Polluted Oxygen, 1kg per tile, -180C Chamber (with pipes primed to -180C) Results: Wolframite: -202.1C (End Product Temp) Granite: -196.5C (End Product Temp) Sandstone: -196.5C (End Product Temp) Scenario 2: 500kg Liquid Oxygen, -215C Polluted Oxygen, 2kg per tile, -180C Chamber (with pipes primed to -180C) Results: Wolframite: -201.5C (End Product Temp) Granite: -196.5C (End Product Temp) Sandstone: -196.4C (End Product Temp) Scenario 3: 500kg Liquid Oxygen, -215C Polluted Oxygen, 10kg per tile, -180C Chamber (with pipes primed to -180C) Results: Wolframite: -198.1C (End Product Temp) Granite: -196.1C (End Product Temp) Sandstone: -196.1C (End Product Temp) Scenario 4: 500kg Liquid Oxygen, -215C Polluted Oxygen, 100kg per tile, -180C Chamber (with pipes primed to -180C) Results: Wolframite: -194.9C (End Product Temp) Granite: -195.1C (End Product Temp) Sandstone: -194.7C (End Product Temp) Observations and conclusions: 1. Granite and Sandstone Pipes seemingly absorb heat better than Wolframite Pipes, but this is actually a product of its low specific heat. When you have a greater temperature difference, or something else the wolframite pipe can dump/suck the heat, it will perform better. 2. Because of Wolframite's low specific heat, it also make the temperature in the chamber colder/hotter. In the case of oxygen liquefier, wolframite pipes were able to produce more liquid oxygen and faster. 3. Granite and Sandstone pipes are pretty much the same in terms of performance, with Sandstone pipes being slightly better. So, as far as oxygen liquefier using liquid oxygen, Wolframite will be able to do the job better. The only caveat would be that it just might make the liquid oxygen inside the pipe heat up too fast and break the pipes, but if you somehow manage to find some kind of sweet spot, than Wolframite is what you want to use. I'm going to run some more tests on Wolframite pipes and other combinations to see how it'd perform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaniel Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 3 hours ago, Saturnus said: Ok. I ran a test. Everything was primed for 10 cycles first to get temps in vent etc equalized. Then everything was repainted in and run for 50 cycles. The below picture is the resulting temperatures after 50 cycles. Saturnus, you can actually prime the temps in vents and pipes by painting the area with 10000kg of whatever gas at the temperature you want. It'll prime your system instantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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