Is disease going to be broken like food?

[chemie]

6 hours ago, Vim Razz said:

Perhaps I should have been more explicit in my wording, because that is not what I meant at all.

The system in AU isn't perfect, but it does provide positive rewards for finding ways of doing well -- for going above and beyond the bare minimum requirements necessary to keep the plants alive.  Aiming for those sorts of targets is a fun creative challenge within the context of ONI's thermal system, and is the aspect of the game that I currently find to be the most interesting and engaging.

The new system (as described) simply requires you to keep the plant alive, with nothing to be gained by trying to innovate or experiment beyond that.  That's just boring, and the positive feedback element is completely removed. 

Adding insult to injury, crops like Sleet Wheat will now provide half the yield that they get in AU for exactly the same amount of work and inputs, with no opportunity to improve on that by being creative about it.

Bleh.

This is what I meant too.  The "it goes slower as it stifles and un-stifles" does not apply because you either have temperature  control room or not.  It is binary.  Mushrooms have CO2 or dont.  AU, you can have fertilizer, irrigation, temperature all effect yield in a dynamic spectrum.

[Buldric]

On 8/19/2017 at 9:37 PM, Masterpintsman said:

When you look under his avatar you'll notice an ONI 'Alpha Contributer' badge: he knows what he's talking about.

I have an ONI Alpha Contributor badge, and I didn't even know the game existed until the early access announcement.

More importantly, what kind of tone does it set for the community when senior forum contributors gang up on new members over mildly worded questions?

And, in this case, I think it's a perfectly reasonable question. Does Risu know for sure that resource costs for watering and fertilizing plants haven't been re-balanced?

18 hours ago, Parusoid said:

It's early access game, not finished product. Don't expect things to not be "broken" in such early stages of game production. 

I don't think that applies here. Even for an early access product, you would expect things to get *less* broken over time, not *more* broken. It's reasonable to point out what you see as questionable design choices, regardless of early access.

Moreover, community feedback and criticism is one of the main reasons to put out a game via early access. You're not doing Klei any favors by shutting down criticism of their game.

[Risu]

33 minutes ago, Buldric said:

And, in this case, I think it's a perfectly reasonable question. Does Risu know for sure that resource costs for watering and fertilizing plants haven't been re-balanced?

Those numbers haven't changed in long time. Unlikely to change again in 2 days.
Their focus has been on making the diseases work.
 

[BlueLance]

2 hours ago, Buldric said:

And, in this case, I think it's a perfectly reasonable question. Does Risu know for sure that resource costs for watering and fertilizing plants haven't been re-balanced?

Well if it makes you feel any better I can also confirm what Risu has said, the numbers have not and will not change unless there is some big reason discovered in the testing, but like Risu said a majority of the focus has been on getting the diseases to work and they are doing a great job.

[Whispershade]

7 hours ago, Buldric said:

More importantly, what kind of tone does it set for the community when senior forum contributors gang up on new members over mildly worded questions?

I don't think it is fair to say this at all. I am probably only one that made comments regarding the wording of a question. And putting aside that I don't think I was even a "senior member" at the time (I'm guessing the threshold is 300), It is unfair to say ganging up took place. My replies probably came across as more confrontational than intended, I was genuinely curious as to what about the way Risu expressed the information gave room for any ambiguity. Additionally, the following quote:

On 8/19/2017 at 0:16 PM, chemie said:

Are you just suggesting or are you an early build tester with real insight to a change?

Admittedly made me a little prickly. Instead of asking along lines of, "Is this true, may I ask how you know that?", it came across to me as, "Unless you are an early build tester, your words mean nothing." Which wouldn't be true. Even if Risu were not to be an early build tester, the information may have been revealed in some other fashion to give it credibility.

I was sort of taking an exception to the idea that only true information comes from 'anointed ones'.

Now, I admit that chemie probably didn't intend that. And I harbor no ill will toward chemie.  The rest of my responses were more to contrast what chemie and Vim Razz were saying they wanted with what the reality will be so that they can articulate their desire more clearly. I even remarked that if they expect something different they are certainly able to take that to the Suggestion Forum.

For my part, I agree there are problems with food production as it currently stands. I am not sure I agree with the position chemie and Vim Razz have taken. It comes across to me as wanting to make food production easier by allowing one to ignore certain requirements and getting a bonus when matches them all. I don't necessarily agree that drives the nuance of the system the way they have thus far articulated. That being said, I'm not sure I am against the idea either.

[Vim Razz]

Outbreak's farm info boxes for Sleet Wheat, Bristle Blossoms, and the new mushrooms were shown in last weeks Twitch streams, so we do have additional outside confirmation on those stats -- or at least for where they were at last week.  I think that Mealwood was in there as well, but I'm not 100% sure on that one.

 

9 hours ago, Whispershade said:

I am not sure I agree with the position chemie and Vim Razz have taken. It comes across to me as wanting to make food production easier by allowing one to ignore certain requirements and getting a bonus when matches them all.

I'm unsure how you're getting this impression. 

Consider that Outbreak appears to provide fully sustainable, re-seeding Mealwood under conditions that would provide a harvest rating of zero(!) under the AU system.  Also note that crops in AU already stifle under the same conditions that they stifle under in Outbreak.  The new system does not appear to make things "harder" in any way.  Instead, it looks like it just removes any benefits for undertaking additional challenges.

 

The core complaint is that mechanics like this (where the best possible result happens to be the one that requires almost no thought or effort) are fundamentally boring, and can even be considered broken since they implicitly punish you for attempting to do more than the bare minimum (as resources spent doing so could have been more effectively applied elsewhere). 

I happen to feed my absolite to hatches for the same reason: the game is less interesting when the best possible answer to 95% of all thermal challenges is: "just use absolite."

This complaint also applies to the fact that sleet wheat can be grown in planter pots or basic farm tiles in AU.  It's so powerful under these conditions for so little effort that it effectively punishes you for attempting to do anything else. (Outbreak appears to take wheat in the opposite direction: the yield is too low to be worthwhile considering the cost of entry -- wheat is the most challenging crop in the game to reliably irrigate.)

The concern is about the extent that it might also apply to the disease mechanics in Outbreak.  (Thank you for taking the time to answer chemie's questions in that regard, by the way -- what you shared does make diseases sound far more interesting than the Twitch stream did.)

 

The secondary complaint is that the agricultural system is being gutted in a way that exacerbates the core complaint.  Most, if not all, of the existing nuance is being removed with nothing on the radar to take it's place. 

Outbreak doesn't really seem to provide anything compelling enough to offset that loss at this point, either.  The disease mechanic appears to be based purely on a negative feedback cycle, as in: do these things or you will fail.  That makes sense, considering it's nature, but the sorts of challenge that such systems create tend to be stuff that you eventually just learn to deal with.  It doesn't look like there's anything in there yet to encourage or inspire you to do better than jumping through the basic token hoops that it sets in front of you.

[Masterpintsman]

Possibly farming gets more lenient so we have more time to play around with the germs, there will be some more paths that can make your colony head south quite fast. There are some new problems coming:

Spoiler

A plant dying in the planter from bad environment won't drop a seed, this can drain you seed stash quick quickly.
Plants can be infected with disease that can spread.
You'll have to deal with fluid- and airborne diseases and duplicants spreading them.
Polluted Oxygen is an enemy now.

It's alpha so the mechanics are still flexible, the idea is to give them a testdrive to find what is fun and what is not - I would suggest to let's play and feedback instead of speculate in advance.

[Whispershade]

3 hours ago, Vim Razz said:

Consider that Outbreak appears to provide fully sustainable, re-seeding Mealwood under conditions that would provide a harvest rating of zero(!) under the AU system.  Also note that crops in AU already stifle under the same conditions that they stifle under in Outbreak.  The new system does not appear to make things "harder" in any way.  Instead, it looks like it just removes any benefits for undertaking additional challenges.

Mealwood is its own problem, but it is not directly related to the conversation away from yields in the sense that other solutions can be employed more easily to address the problems with mealwood. Specifically, I perceive the primary problem with mealwood is that you can grow it indefinitely and the bite of supplying poor quality food is hardly noticeable. It needs to be an easy plant to grow because it is introductory, but it fails to springboard into alternatives effectively for lack of need to move on. Yield doesn't fix that.

Regarding the conditions that cause stifling, you are wrong. I can think of maybe 3 conditions that cause stifling in live. Being outside the temperature range of the plant, insufficient atmospheric pressure, and being submerged/not submerged (depending on the plant). Now, even mealwood can be stifled in certain gasses like chlorine. And that example is an outlier, because there are a host of conditions that now cause stifling that apply to every other plant including wrong gas, illumination/lack of, lack of fertilizer, and lack of irrigation. Might be some I am forgetting. In every other case outside of mealwood, you're technically asking for it to be easier to grow plants by making some conditions not mandatory.

4 hours ago, Vim Razz said:

The core complaint is that mechanics like this (where the best possible result happens to be the one that requires almost no thought or effort) are fundamentally boring, and can even be considered broken since they implicitly punish you for attempting to do more than the bare minimum (as resources spent doing so could have been more effectively applied elsewhere).

Again, here the core complaint is related to the issues specific to what mealwood becomes now that it has stripped down some of its requirements for sustainable growth. But if the yield system actually effectively addressed this problem by itself, sleet wheat wouldn't be the wonder crop it is now. The yield system is ancillary to the complaint.

4 hours ago, Vim Razz said:

The secondary complaint is that the agricultural system is being gutted in a way that exacerbates the core complaint.  Most, if not all, of the existing nuance is being removed with nothing on the radar to take it's place.

No, it doesn't. It shifts the core complaint/the problem to a different crop. It does not create the problem nor fix the problem directly. It is a problem, I agree, but yield is not the only, nor necessarily best, solution.
 

[Risu]

7 hours ago, Vim Razz said:

(Outbreak appears to take wheat in the opposite direction: the yield is too low to be worthwhile considering the cost of entry -- wheat is the most challenging crop in the game to reliably irrigate.)

Thankfully pipes are optional. Dupes can deliver water manually.
 

[Vim Razz]

7 hours ago, Whispershade said:

Regarding the conditions that cause stifling, you are wrong. ... there are a host of conditions that now cause stifling that apply to every other plant including wrong gas, illumination/lack of, lack of fertilizer, and lack of irrigation.

I stand corrected, but you're still describing a system where the only possible scores are either a "D" or an "F" -- either pass or fail.  "A", "B", and "C" have been removed from the spectrum altogether.

You seem to be so caught up in nitpicking the details that you're completely ignoring the broader themes of the conversation.

 

For example:

7 hours ago, Whispershade said:

In every other case outside of mealwood, you're technically asking for it to be easier to grow plants by making some conditions not mandatory

I would like to not be rude, but with this statement it does not appear that you are making any serious attempt to understand what anyone is saying in this thread at all.

 

moving on...

7 hours ago, Whispershade said:

Specifically, I perceive the primary problem with mealwood is that you can grow it indefinitely and the bite of supplying poor quality food is hardly noticeable. It needs to be an easy plant to grow because it is introductory, but it fails to springboard into alternatives effectively for lack of need to move on.

Yes. This is one specific example of the general type of situation that some of us view as being broken, as expressed in the very first post in this thread, and directly identified by the OP as a relevant example in this post.

Is this supposed to be somehow contrary to the point that I was attempting to make?  It is not.

 

As for Yield: no one is endorsing or defending the yield system for it's own sake, or arguing that it should be retained or reinstated.  It does, however, have some positive aspects that would be nice to have in the game in some way in the future, namely:

1. It provides reasonable rewards for undertaking optional challenges within the game, like maintaining 5° temperature variance for sustained periods of time while also dumping water and fertilizer (all with it's own mass and temperature) into the system on a daily basis.
2. It allows for alternate approaches to the same crop, which can lead to some fun cost-benefit analysis type thinking depending on your circumstances and what kind of approach you feel like taking.

7 hours ago, Whispershade said:

Again, here the core complaint is related to the issues specific to what mealwood becomes now that it has stripped down some of its requirements for sustainable growth. But if the yield system actually effectively addressed this problem by itself, sleet wheat wouldn't be the wonder crop it is now. The yield system is ancillary to the complaint.

No. The new status of Mealwood is only an example of the type of situation being criticized.  The criticism is not specific to it.

And, no, the yield system is not directly related to the core complaint at all, and is certainly not ancillary.  It didn't even enter into the conversation until later, and only then as a secondary topic. 

Sleet Wheat is getting rebalanced by the addition of mandatory upkeep costs per plant, not by the removal of the yield mechanic.  If you could continue to put it in planter boxes and grow it for free in Outbreak like you can in AU, then it would continue to dominate everything at 400kcal per tile per cycle with no water cost in it's food prep and the ability to massively expand it's planting by up to 25x every 20 cycles.  The yield system has nothing to do with that.

 

7 hours ago, Whispershade said:

No, it doesn't [gut the agricultural system in a way that exacerbates the core complaint]. It shifts the core complaint/the problem to a different crop.

In AU, you have multiple options regarding the handling of each crop, depending on your needs, goals, or personal feelings at the spur of the moment.  That entire aspect of the current mechanic is going away, and it will be missed.  Outbreak simply provides fewer choices to be made based on personal preference or desired outcome. 

This has nothing to do with the relative imbalance of any particular crop, except that in Outbreak the crop in question appears harder to avoid entirely.

[Vim Razz]

4 hours ago, Risu said:

Thankfully pipes are optional. Dupes can deliver water manually.
 

Wow, that's good to know -- I'd never even considered the possibility. Thanks!

[chemie]

21 hours ago, Whispershade said:

I don't think it is fair to say this at all. I am probably only one that made comments regarding the wording of a question. And putting aside that I don't think I was even a "senior member" at the time (I'm guessing the threshold is 300), It is unfair to say ganging up took place. My replies probably came across as more confrontational than intended, I was genuinely curious as to what about the way Risu expressed the information gave room for any ambiguity. Additionally, the following quote:

Admittedly made me a little prickly. Instead of asking along lines of, "Is this true, may I ask how you know that?", it came across to me as, "Unless you are an early build tester, your words mean nothing." Which wouldn't be true. Even if Risu were not to be an early build tester, the information may have been revealed in some other fashion to give it credibility.

I was sort of taking an exception to the idea that only true information comes from 'anointed ones'.

Now, I admit that chemie probably didn't intend that. And I harbor no ill will toward chemie.  The rest of my responses were more to contrast what chemie and Vim Razz were saying they wanted with what the reality will be so that they can articulate their desire more clearly. I even remarked that if they expect something different they are certainly able to take that to the Suggestion Forum.

For my part, I agree there are problems with food production as it currently stands. I am not sure I agree with the position chemie and Vim Razz have taken. It comes across to me as wanting to make food production easier by allowing one to ignore certain requirements and getting a bonus when matches them all. I don't necessarily agree that drives the nuance of the system the way they have thus far articulated. That being said, I'm not sure I am against the idea either.

Actually, I want to make food harder, or rather, more complex and nuanced. I do not like the "spam wheat" mechanic.  Sounds like I won't like the "spam lice" mechanic.  I am hoping we can get variety and quality factors that force you to farm several different foods rather than having many food just not worth the effort.

"Vim" called this A and F; I called it binary.  Same thing.  Pass/Fail.  I prefer a spectrum for farming which adds engineering challenges but is also optional with pros/cons (control to broad temperature or control to 5C range for example).  Binary provides less benefit and makes balance very hard as some food forms will not be worth the effort to "pass".

 

re: your comment about wording, I guess written vs verbal can lead to misunderstanding.  My point was if someone is making a definitive statement, it is nice to know their basis.  "I am an internet God" is one option but not very useful so knowing that they are commenting based on real information is helpful.  People with real knowledge about something have more credibility than forum warriors so my question was specific to that.  Opinion vs fact is sometimes hard to know in forums.  I do not think it is insulting to ask if it is opinion or fact and a specific question like mine seems less insulting in that context to me.

[Whispershade]

5 hours ago, Vim Razz said:

I would like to not be rude, but with this statement it does not appear that you are making any serious attempt to understand what anyone is saying in this thread at all.

I understand what you guys are saying. I am explaining the implication of what you appear to be asking for so that you can better articulate your actual vision. Believe it or not, I agree with you that farming isn't as interesting as it could be. But I recommend you experience the changes and then post specific recommendations to the suggestion forum.

5 hours ago, Vim Razz said:

And, no, the yield system is not directly related to the core complaint at all, and is certainly not ancillary.  It didn't even enter into the conversation until later, and only then as a secondary topic. 

The yield system is the only means we have thus far had a non-binary/non-pass-fail farming system. Neither of you have proposed a system that incorporates non-binary results that doesn't lean upon the yield system to do so. So far, it is the core of the solution to a problem you have agreed is not directly related to yield. That is not necessarily a problem, but you need to be clear about what you're asking for. I don't think yield fixes mealwood. The problem is sustainable food from planter boxes without noticeable consequences. The solution for mealwood could be as simple as making the low quality stress modifier apply for the day instead of just the period of consumption thus making the cost in dupe operational time and risk of stress related catastrophe.

 

 

4 hours ago, chemie said:

re: your comment about wording, I guess written vs verbal can lead to misunderstanding.  My point was if someone is making a definitive statement, it is nice to know their basis.

I agree that it is perfectly fair to ask where someone got their information before you take it as credible. The way you phrased it came off a little dismissive to me. But such is life on the internet where tone can be hard to read. I cannot say I have not been victim to such misunderstandings. I apologize if I've come across as hostile regarding the comment.

[Vim Razz]

3 hours ago, Whispershade said:

I understand what you guys are saying. I am explaining the implication of what you appear to be asking for so that you can better articulate your actual vision.

If that's what you think you're doing, then you have completely misinterpreted my intent and are wasting my time.  There is no "actual vision" to articulate.  We are reflecting on the state of the mechanical game loop in AU and the nature of imminent changes in Outbreak.  That's it.

I am not "asking" for anything at all, or making any specific suggestions.  I have no intention to, either.  I am only sharing my thoughts and impressions on the current state of affairs as the game transitions into it's next phase.

[Whispershade]

1 hour ago, Vim Razz said:

If that's what you think you're doing, then you have completely misinterpreted my intent and are wasting my time.  There is no "actual vision" to articulate.  We are reflecting on the state of the mechanical game loop in AU and the nature of imminent changes in Outbreak.  That's it.

I am not "asking" for anything at all, or making any specific suggestions.  I have no intention to, either.  I am only sharing my thoughts and impressions on the current state of affairs as the game transitions into it's next phase.

On sorry! I thought you were trying to be constructive! My apologies!

[chemie]

Well, I was suggesting a change.  I have stated it twice.

 

Make quality matter (perhaps as a function of dupe level).  Add in variety (require 3 different foods for example) to force things.

After this new update, there is no reason to move beyond mealwood which is worse than AU with wheat.

[chemie]

On 8/19/2017 at 4:26 PM, Whispershade said:

Let me rephrase. What about his declarative statement suggested he was speculating?

  Hide contents

It isn't. Arguably is has no niche now. If you care about food expectations you're better off with mushrooms or bristle blossoms. If you don't care about food expectations then it is mealwood planters until the end of time.

To answer your original question, food poisoning is just introductory and it can become a pain but it isn't a big deal if well managed. Slimelung will be something that can kill your dupes. The Rejuvinator doesn't actually do anything for disease only health injury. And slimelung will have significant implications on how you choose to explore the asteroid.

Enjoy!

So I agree food poisoning does slow the inital game but I have been ignoring slime lung completely.  All dups stay at 100%.  I just store the slim eand algae in the biome and seem to be able to ignore it.  Later, I put bleach stone in the same rooms in case I want to use the slime/algae down the road. Basically, per my original post, seems like you can completely ignore it.

[Whispershade]

1 hour ago, chemie said:

So I agree food poisoning does slow the inital game but I have been ignoring slime lung completely.  All dups stay at 100%.  I just store the slim eand algae in the biome and seem to be able to ignore it.  Later, I put bleach stone in the same rooms in case I want to use the slime/algae down the road. Basically, per my original post, seems like you can completely ignore it.

I stated previously that slimelung's risk is not in the solids. Well I suppose it can be if your catastrophically cavalier about sanitation.

How old is your new colony?

[chemie]

2 minutes ago, Whispershade said:

I stated previously that slimelung's risk is not in the solids. Well I suppose it can be if your catastrophically cavalier about sanitation.

How old is your new colony?

200 cycles.  My only real challenge is finding a steam geyser...not many more cycles before original water is gone

[Sevio]

Slimelung becomes threatening when it spreads into a large volume of polluted oxygen. Mined slime chunks on the ground sublimate some polluted oxygen, along with some germs. Once that happens, it will spread to the entire volume of polluted oxygen pretty rapidly. Depending on how quickly you expand and displace the polluted oxygen after breaking into it, it might not be much of a problem or it could lead to your dupes falling to 50% immunity with just a few short work trips into the area.

Food poisoning only gets internalized when a dupe eats, which allows passing by a wash basin to prevent that from happening. Slimelung infects a dupe more and more every second they spend breathing infected polluted oxygen. Individual slimelung germs don't affect the immune system as much as food poisoning, which means a dupe can seem fine for quite a while as slimelung builds up inside them. But they inhale a lot of germs every breath in a slimelung filled area. By the time you notice that a dupe's immune system is seriously dropping,  the germ count will have risen quite high and it will take a long time for their immune system to bounce back from that. During that time they can be very vulnerable to a sudden burst of food poisoning or one trip too many to a slime biome.

[chemie]

Well, thats why it isn't a problem.  I stay away from polluted O2 and I put the slime in compactors in closed rooms.

[Whispershade]

29 minutes ago, chemie said:

Well, thats why it isn't a problem.  I stay away from polluted O2 and I put the slime in compactors in closed rooms.

I didn't quite want to spell it out like Sevio, but yes, If you never breach pockets of PO or always deal with it very quickly, you're unlikely to have much danger from slimelung. But being wary of polluted oxygen because of the slimelung risk is the very definition of not ignoring slimelung.

Incidentally, you can safely store slime and bleachstone in compactors in liquids like water or polluted water to keep them from sublimating. Since they're both fairly valuable resources.

[Moggles]

I raised a number of outspoken concerns about the backtrack on farming during closed testing. The player had many choices. A complex system to balance for the developers but depth and choice for game play. I liked the addition in AU for the options that opened up.

By contrast I don't feel the germ system adds any choice. There is no benefit to choosing to let your dupes get sick. Therefore I feel it railroads the player in to having to have a clean base which will always require the same combinations of machines that your dupes will interact with in a specific order.

It makes the first 2 or 3 cycles play out the same each colony when you know how to deal with it.

Cycle one Liquid Bottler, Washbasin, Outhouse. If you don't have that combination placed in specific relative locations by mid morning cycle 2 you will begin germ spread. Again letting them spread has no benefit so surely it's in every players best interest to avoid it.

I have likened the yield system to an optional minigame within the game. It just needed some balancing. If you choose to go high yield you could save space in the map making smaller high yield farms and you get to play with contraptions. If you opt out of the minigame you can spam plants at low yield. As you progress these options are available at every tier of food quality.

Now farming requires specific combinations of buildings and materials at all times limiting the use of things like hydroponic farms.

It's just my opinion I feel like the germs and the farming changes are putting our dupes and food production on a track and have removed some of the flexibility the game had before. I don't think removing real game play choice and replacing them with difficult settings in an options menu is very good for the game.

[Sevio]

31 minutes ago, Moggles said:

I have likened the yield system to an optional minigame within the game. It just needed some balancing. If you choose to go high yield you could save space in the map making smaller high yield farms and you get to play with contraptions. If you opt out of the minigame you can spam plants at low yield. As you progress these options are available at every tier of food quality.

You do have a point here as exemplified by mealwood being the current low effort, high volume meta, whereas moving up in the food tiers suddenly forces much more complex, and very resource hungry builds. I think this can be remedied without reverting to the complicated yield system though. The game just needs some more crops and food recipes to cover these niches at multiple food tiers, with a diversity of easier or harder conditions to match. Along with that a more serious stress penalty for eating food below expectations that can't be so easily countered by art spam.

[chemie]

Is anyone even using ore scrubbers?

I have not found a chlorine geyser (80% explored map), but that is kind of the point.  I obviously have found another way to deal with contaminated ore.  But let's say you find a geyser right by your starting base.

My understanding is it is "on demand", like a wash basin vs biodistillers, so you can't "work off" the contaminated ore and instead have to walk it by the scrubber.

This means

1. You need to have several to avoid dups walking by a busy one

2. You need to have a network at each active excavation.  This means you need a lot given >50% of the maps seem to be slime biomes now.  So pipe chlorine all over the place,

 

Instead, isn't it better to do one of two things?

1. Just store contaminated slime and algae outside the base

2. and/or if you do have a geyser, just store the contaminated ore in a chlorine room for passive destruction over time?

 

I am doing #1 and it seems fine.  I am working off the slime in a single biodistiller and the slimelung does not seem to propagate into the fertilizer farm. (I have a sump at 75C for PW, which then goes to fertilizers.  The slimelung is low enough concentration is has not been an issue).

I have switched back to algae for O2 just to try to force slimelung back via that route but seem to have a lot of non-contaminated algae or it simply does not matter there either.

 

Can someone provide a use case?  Do they use so little chlorine it is viable from small pockets vs a geyser?,