Is disease going to be broken like food?

[chemie]

Meaning you ignore the whole mechanic?

I mean, wheat is broken such that you ignore the whole food mechanic.  We get mushrooms...who cares?  Wheat is the only way to go until they enforce quality/variety.

It looks like disease will be same thing.  Obviously, it raises the bar to new players, and could accelerate a cascade failure scenario for all players, but it is mostly "follow some simple rules to ignore" thing.

For yellow disease, outhouse+wash basin = ignore.  Later in game, hot water from geysers + shower/toilets = ignore.  They give you a bunch of tools to deal with it (the new water cooler is to cool water you sterilize) but you can ignore these with simple work arounds. 

For slime lung, we will have to see (I could not tell from the recent stream) but it sounds like it won't spread and maybe not infect in clean O2 environment.  I always keep PO2 out of my main base so ignore?  Yes, they have a ore cleaner but that seems too much work (chlorine geyser and dup labor) when you could have a chlorine room for dups to walk through, thereby cleaning the ore passively if even needed.  

 

On top of this, it appears you can ignore disease completely by just switching from beds to rejuvenators..

Yes, it is sandbox, and I think my next game I will have to impose a "no wheat" rule but from what I see of disease so far, I may have to impose a "don't do the obvious things so you can ignore this mechanic and instead play stupid to try to add some fun/complexity" which kind of is sad.

 

(The first stream they showed disease, I thought "wow, that is going to make things really hard". There was disease all over his base. Then the latest stream, he used a wash basin (instead of ignoring the disease like before) and it disappeared completely from his base until he intentionally broke it.  This is when I realized disease was going the way of food).

[RemyG]

We don't know what requirements and how much wheat grain sleet wheat will produce in the coming update. Food probably is not going to be as cut and dry as it is right now. We'll find out in a week. As for diseases spreading in clean O2 they said multiple times that diseases will spread FASTER in polluted o2, they will still spread in a clean o2 environment.

[Risu]

Spoiler

400 kg of Water and 80 kg of Fertilizer for 25 Sleet Wheat Grain. Enjoy.
 

 

[Coolthulhu]

52 minutes ago, Risu said:

  Reveal hidden contents

400 kg of Water and 80 kg of Fertilizer for 25 Sleet Wheat Grain. Enjoy.
 

 

Unless you tediously plant it wild, seed by seed.

[Risu]

32 minutes ago, Coolthulhu said:

Unless you tediously plant it wild, seed by seed.

Which would require 10 plants per dupe for food in 80 cycles.

Spoiler

Which wouldn't work as seeds no longer plant themselves.
 

[brummbar7]

3 hours ago, chemie said:

when you could have a chlorine room for dups to walk through, thereby cleaning the ore passively if even needed. 

The cleaning effect of chlorine is not instantaneous, so you'd have to have a fairly long run in such a room.   But ya, chlorine is going to be....your new friend...

[chemie]

1 hour ago, Risu said:

  Hide contents

400 kg of Water and 80 kg of Fertilizer for 25 Sleet Wheat Grain. Enjoy.
 

 

Are you just suggesting or are you an early build tester with real insight to a change?

I actually do not think the way to fix it is to nerf it so you can't grow it.  I think they need better variety/quality balance.  If they nerf it, spicey bread won't make sense either.

[Whispershade]

1 hour ago, chemie said:

Are you just suggesting or are you an early build tester with real insight to a change?

I actually do not think the way to fix it is to nerf it so you can't grow it.  I think they need better variety/quality balance.  If they nerf it, spicey bread won't make sense either.

What about his spoiler warning concealed statement suggested to you he was just speculating wildly?

[Whispershade]

3 hours ago, Risu said:

  Reveal hidden contents

400 kg of Water and 80 kg of Fertilizer for 25 Sleet Wheat Grain. Enjoy.
 

 

Spoiler

Too be fair, the problem food for the scenario he is complaining about is going to be mealwood for all the same reasons.

 

[BlueLance]

3 hours ago, brummbar7 said:

The cleaning effect of chlorine is not instantaneous, so you'd have to have a fairly long run in such a room.   But ya, chlorine is going to be....your new friend...

Or in my case a pain in the rear, i literally had too much clogging up the bottom of my base...

[chemie]

2 hours ago, Whispershade said:

What about his spoiler warning concealed statement suggested to you he was just speculating wildly?

I did not know that spoiler warning was a statement of fact.

So I assume this means wheat can't be planted in planters and instead must have proper plant tiles with water feed etc?  I am OK with that.  I still see it as best food option out there, unless they are adding a tight temperature spec like the other sources.

[Whispershade]

37 minutes ago, chemie said:

I did not know that spoiler warning was a statement of fact.

Let me rephrase. What about his declarative statement suggested he was speculating?

38 minutes ago, chemie said:

So I assume this means wheat can't be planted in planters and instead must have proper plant tiles with water feed etc?  I am OK with that.  I still see it as best food option out there, unless they are adding a tight temperature spec like the other sources.

Spoiler

It isn't. Arguably is has no niche now. If you care about food expectations you're better off with mushrooms or bristle blossoms. If you don't care about food expectations then it is mealwood planters until the end of time.

To answer your original question, food poisoning is just introductory and it can become a pain but it isn't a big deal if well managed. Slimelung will be something that can kill your dupes. The Rejuvinator doesn't actually do anything for disease only health injury. And slimelung will have significant implications on how you choose to explore the asteroid.

Enjoy!

[brummbar7]

2 hours ago, BlueLance said:

Or in my case a pain in the rear, i literally had too much clogging up the bottom of my base...

Ya, its going to be the kind of friend who you maybe go to the bar with, or a road trip, and he'll help you fix your car and has your back in a fight - he's cool like that....but you don't want him to be around your family really, or be in your house.  He's abrasive and crude and gets mud on your carpets and generally leaves a mess everywhere.  That kind of friend

[chemie]

1 hour ago, Whispershade said:

Let me rephrase. What about his declarative statement suggested he was speculating?

  Hide contents

It isn't. Arguably is has no niche now. If you care about food expectations you're better off with mushrooms or bristle blossoms. If you don't care about food expectations then it is mealwood planters until the end of time.

To answer your original question, food poisoning is just introductory and it can become a pain but it isn't a big deal if well managed. Slimelung will be something that can kill your dupes. The Rejuvinator doesn't actually do anything for disease only health injury. And slimelung will have significant implications on how you choose to explore the asteroid.

Enjoy!

Spamming mealwood is basically the same thing as spamming wheat.  I just wish they would force variety and quality.  I have not seen any downside to not worrying about food expectations up to now..

So if you can't heal slimelung via health mechanics, do you just wait and see if dups die from it?

[brummbar7]

44 minutes ago, chemie said:

So if you can't heal slimelung via health mechanics, do you just wait and see if dups die from it?

Each disease has a duration.  Food poisoning shorter, slimelung longer.   There will be a new "Aid" job, which is the job of tending to sick dupes, which reduces the disease duration (Aid is a single task applied only once a day - not a continuous job).  Slimelung's particular effects (progressively shorter lung capacity) are such that if the sick dupe does not receive enough aid, they will die of suffocation.  It is not random.

[Whispershade]

1 hour ago, chemie said:

Spamming mealwood is basically the same thing as spamming wheat.  I just wish they would force variety and quality.  I have not seen any downside to not worrying about food expectations up to now..

I suspect strongly that there will eventually be a Stress Update of some kind that refines decor, expectations and other things related to stress.

[Masterpintsman]

9 hours ago, chemie said:

Are you just suggesting or are you an early build tester with real insight to a change?

When you look under his avatar you'll notice an ONI 'Alpha Contributer' badge: he knows what he's talking about.

The next update will bring interesting additions and changes - most likely it'll force you to rethink some approaches as current strategies will have new downsides. In my tests a wash basin next to the outhouse wasn't 'food poisoning be gone', it helps stopping it from spreading but it's not a cure-all.

[BlueLance]

1 per toilet will rid the colony of food poisoning if a dupe only has 1 reason to go that way.

Well until you need to empty it at least...

Also this patch is forcing me to make tough choices as water is like my ex....gone XD

[Vim Razz]

On 8/19/2017 at 1:26 PM, Whispershade said:

Let me rephrase. What about his declarative statement suggested he was speculating?

Simple, declarative statements are commonly used for dry sarcasm.  Ending with "Enjoy" made the comment sound bitter enough to warrant confirmation that he wasn't being cynical or hyperbolic.

This is such an aggressive downgrade to the game mechanic that I didn't want to believe him myself.  When I'd heard that yield was being removed, I'd just sort of assumed that managing temperatures and pressures would affect efficiency in some other way (perhaps by affecting growth speed which would provide sort of a sliding scale), but that does not appear to be the case.

It's disappointing.  I'll be running Steam offline to block this update for the time being.  Trying to fine-tune environmental factors to get effective results under messy and constantly evolving circumstances is the most engaging part of the game.  The disease stuff looks kind of neat, but if it doesn't make a difference how well or how poorly you handle the thermal mechanics, then what's even the point?

[chemie]

3 hours ago, Vim Razz said:

Simple, declarative statements are commonly used for dry sarcasm.  Ending with "Enjoy" made the comment sound bitter enough to warrant confirmation that he wasn't being cynical or hyperbolic.

This is such an aggressive downgrade to the game mechanic that I didn't want to believe him myself.  When I'd heard that yield was being removed, I'd just sort of assumed that managing temperatures and pressures would affect efficiency in some other way (perhaps by affecting growth speed which would provide sort of a sliding scale), but that does not appear to be the case.

It's disappointing.  I'll be running Steam offline to block this update for the time being.  Trying to fine-tune environmental factors to get effective results under messy and constantly evolving circumstances is the most engaging part of the game.  The disease stuff looks kind of neat, but if it doesn't make a difference how well or how poorly you handle the thermal mechanics, then what's even the point?

For food, I actually liked that a combination of water, fertilizer, pot, atmospheric pressure and temperature all helped affect quality.  Wheat was broken because it basically produced a lot of food without much effort (just temperature in a biome that met that wide criteria).

Now it seems food will be binary.  You met all requirement or you get nothing.  This means there will be some food that is not worth the effort (you can't decide to meet temp but not fertilize like today).  It appears lice will be winning the "do nothing food" award which I do not see as a step forward.

 

(Also, yes, your statement about the reply to me was how I was thinking of it)

[chemie]

So maybe this can't be answered until Thursday but feel free to post the spoiler answer

* Does Distiller destroy slime lung in slime?

* Does oxidizer destroy slime lung in algae?

* Does fertilizer destroy food poisoning in water?

 

The more nos, the more you will have to engineer solution vs just ignore.  Seems food poisoning is mostly ignore (I believe hot water kills it so you can feed that from geysers).  Slime lung may be more problematic unless you can ignore by destroying through normal use.  I suspect a chlorine storage room will be the way to ignore.  I am not sure I like de-coupling health and illness.  I think this will be confusing.  Why doesn't my dupe "heal"?  Because health and illness are different and you can only once a day treat illness?  Strange.

[brummbar7]

1 hour ago, chemie said:

Why doesn't my dupe "heal"?  Because health and illness are different and you can only once a day treat illness?  Strange.

From a mechanical standpoint, disease does not affect health.  It basically applies status effects with a duration.  Some annoying.  Some deadly.  Duration is reduced by being aided, which currently is only done on the medical cot.  The rejuvenator only addresses health, as I understand it, at this point, and does not facilitate aiding.  So, the rejuvenator does not help disease simply because it's not set up to, I think.  This may well be changed in the future for all we know - it seems reasonable to assume.  I think there's still a lot of disease related content to come, probably.  And remember, the actual update could have things even us closed testers haven't seen (or things could be different form what we've seen) so it's kind of trust-but-verify, to a degree.

[Whispershade]

2 hours ago, chemie said:

* Does Distiller destroy slime lung in slime?

Spoiler

Did for a period but not now. It pumps that slimelung into the water and aglae that's produced.

 

3 hours ago, chemie said:

* Does oxidizer destroy slime lung in algae?

Spoiler

Nope.

 

3 hours ago, chemie said:

* Does fertilizer destroy food poisoning in water?

Spoiler

I take this to mean that if you use polluted water with food poisoning germs, will those germs be transmitted to the fertilizer that's produced from the fertilizer maker.
The answer is yes.  Will the germs die because they don't survive well in particular solids, yes. How much of a problem this is depends on a lot of factors. I am unaware of any building that purges germs from input material. And I would include the ore scrubbers which removes only specific amount of germs. Which might be all of them, but might not.

 

3 hours ago, chemie said:

 Slime lung may be more problematic unless you can ignore by destroying through normal use.  I suspect a chlorine storage room will be the way to ignore.

Spoiler

No, if you're at the point of storing a solid with slimelung that slimelung colony isn't particularly dangerous anymore anyway. Slimelung is dangerous in a completely different way

 

6 hours ago, Vim Razz said:

I'd just sort of assumed that managing temperatures and pressures would affect efficiency in some other way (perhaps by affecting growth speed which would provide sort of a sliding scale), but that does not appear to be the case.

Well, actually, that's exactly the case. If you fail to meet criteria the food fails to grow, it stifles until you've met the criteria. If you're meeting the criteria inconsistently, it will grow slower as it's growth is paused when stifled. If you want to suggest that the fewer criteria met, the slower is grows and not just stifles, that's something you can propose on the suggestion forum. But as it stands, with the way you worded this statement, it is precisely that way. The longer you fail to meet requirements the longer the plant will take to complete cycles. Into infinitely long.

[Vim Razz]

2 hours ago, Whispershade said:

Well, actually, that's exactly the case. If you fail to meet criteria the food fails to grow, it stifles until you've met the criteria. If you're meeting the criteria inconsistently, it will grow slower as it's growth is paused when stifled. 

Perhaps I should have been more explicit in my wording, because that is not what I meant at all.

The system in AU isn't perfect, but it does provide positive rewards for finding ways of doing well -- for going above and beyond the bare minimum requirements necessary to keep the plants alive.  Aiming for those sorts of targets is a fun creative challenge within the context of ONI's thermal system, and is the aspect of the game that I currently find to be the most interesting and engaging.

The new system (as described) simply requires you to keep the plant alive, with nothing to be gained by trying to innovate or experiment beyond that.  That's just boring, and the positive feedback element is completely removed. 

Adding insult to injury, crops like Sleet Wheat will now provide half the yield that they get in AU for exactly the same amount of work and inputs, with no opportunity to improve on that by being creative about it.

Bleh.

[Parusoid]

It's early access game, not finished product. Don't expect things to not be "broken" in such early stages of game production.