FistfulOfZen Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 Right now, the amount of water necessary to do practically anything, from Algae Terrariums to Microbe Musher, is just out of control. The problem isn't necessarily the rate of consumption. It's when they need to be refilled it obliterates time management in the colony. No. Stop it. In the name of all that is holy, please. Stop with the pointless time sinks. All of them. Time sinks aren't fun. Resource management games do not requires time sinking. People generally have a set amount of "free time". Time sinking robs people of their time needlessly. It's not cool when a movie does it by needlessly filling space between critical scenes with just filler and stock footage BS. It's not cool when some YouTube channel wastes 2 minutes of the five minutes on a silly intro. It's not cool when a teacher makes you read an entire book, when they know they are only going to test two chapters out of it. It's not cool when a video game makes their players watch their Dupes do ONE thing for 5 to 20 minutes, based on time speed. A video game is ALREADY "wasted time". Don't double up on it by wasting our free time, some of us have a very limited amount of it. I regularly feel like ONI is just stealing my time and I'm not even getting any further in the game, not because I necessarily don't know what I'm doing, but because the Dupes are just time sinking. (For the record: energy generation on the Manual Generator is an exception, since it's actually productive something, but shutting down the Microbe Musher for 10 minutes because it needs 13 gallons of water is just excessive.). Please? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oozinator Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 4 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said: It's not cool when a teacher makes you read an entire book, when they know they are only going to test two chapters out of it. Word! Books are rotten treezombies and 100% evil! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottFree Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 Gathering water isn't a time sink. Its a requirement of the machine. Switch to air scrubbers, electrolyzers, and cooking stations because they do not have that requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FistfulOfZen Posted July 26, 2017 Author Share Posted July 26, 2017 On 7/26/2017 at 9:56 AM, ScottFree said: Gathering water isn't a time sink. Its a requirement of the machine. Switch to air scrubbers, electrolyzers, and cooking stations because they do not have that requirement. I already have, @ScottFree. I don't know why you're assuming that I'm not. The water usage between the different solutions actually isn't different (correction, the air scrubber consumes 3x as much water per second), it's just how they are delivered. Requiring water isn't a problem. Requiring a LOT of water isn't a problem. Requiring a LOT of water ALL AT ONCE is the problem. Requiring 50Kg of water when Dupes can only bring 1Kg at a time to the Microbe Musher is ridiculous. One, that the thing can hold 13 gallons of water in the first place, when 2 to 3 is much more reasonable.. Also ridiculous is that Dupes can't carry more than a quart of liquid at a time when all across America and Europe, people are picking up gallons of milk... right now, every day... That said, robbing people of time is still wrong, especially when it's totally arbitrarily, and how much the Dupes can carry and how much the machines and equipment can contain are both TOTALLY arbitrary. The dev team can change EITHER settings to literally whatever values they want. I'm arguing that those values are presently ridiculous, because they create time sinks and have absolutely no connection to logical reality. Just to reiterate, I'm fine with the rate resources are consumed being relatively high. I am not okay with artificial and arbitrary time sinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brummbar7 Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 28 minutes ago, FistfulOfZen said: The water usage between the different solutions actually isn't different, it's just how they are delivered. Isn't that kind of your whole complaint though? The dupe time it takes to deliver water to the low level tech? I think Scott's point is the higher tier stuff doesn't require any dupe time at all. That's tech progression. The lower level tech is inferior, the higher is better, that's what motivates you to the higher level. And besides, time *is* a resource. That's why the generator wheel doesn't require any fuel or generate any pollution. Your dupe's time *is* the resource it takes. Perhaps the most precious resource of all... Regarding the 1kg deliveries, I'm pretty sure that is going to change in the next major update, when we have bottling stations, rather than dupes just sucking up water from any old puddle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
x4550 Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 The new water bottler should help out tremendously, if not solve this problem entirely. btw, I was just as frustrated with algae terrariums as you seem to be until I realized (via these forums) that you could partially submerge them to eliminate the water-delivery requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottFree Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 8 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said: Just to reiterate, I'm fine with the rate resources are consumed being relatively high. I am not okay with artificial and arbitrary time sinks. What would be a natural and non arbitrary speed for gathering water? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexRou Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 4 hours ago, ScottFree said: What would be a natural and non arbitrary speed for gathering water? I'm guessing he wants klei to hire 100 people to carry as much water as they can and then take the average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasuha Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 On 7/26/2017 at 10:50 AM, FistfulOfZen said: Right now, the amount of water necessary to do practically anything, from Algae Terrariums to Microbe Musher, is just out of control. They're meant as early inefficient technology due to be abandoned in later game stages. And best idea is to not use them at all, or, in case of the musher, only use it when absolutely necessary (e.g. when a binge eater happens). As of now, the game allows the player to keep collecting CO2 in dug rooms until he researches an air scrubber and all necessary piping technology, and to start growing food from plants and eventually using the cooking station before he runs out of field rations and muckroot available at the start of the game. And even if you need to use them, you can place the terrariums into one tile deep water, which will allow them to draw the water from the pool and not require any delivery. And you can place the musher next to a water pool or "well" so your dupes don't carry the water too far. 18 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said: The water usage between the different solutions actually isn't different Actually it is very different. Regarding CO2, the scrubber uses way less water than terrariums for the same amount of processed CO2. And regarding food, you can grow most or all plants without irrigating just fine, depending on the plant. Also some plants are irrigated with polluted water which among others comes out of the air scrubber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolthulhu Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 23 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said: Requiring 50Kg of water when Dupes can only bring 1Kg at a time to the Microbe Musher is ridiculous. Dupes can carry 75kg just fine. They only pick up 1kg when they harvest a bugged puddle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FistfulOfZen Posted July 28, 2017 Author Share Posted July 28, 2017 7 hours ago, Coolthulhu said: Dupes can carry 75kg just fine. They only pick up 1kg when they harvest a bugged puddle. Alright, which is most of the time, then. That said, Klei said that they are going to introduce a new mechanic (water pumps) to hopefully address this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FistfulOfZen Posted July 28, 2017 Author Share Posted July 28, 2017 12 hours ago, Kasuha said: Actually it is very different. Regarding CO2, the scrubber uses way less water than terrariums for the same amount of processed CO2. And regarding food, you can grow most or all plants without irrigating just fine, depending on the plant. Also some plants are irrigated with polluted water which among others comes out of the air scrubber. https://oxygennotincluded.gamepedia.com/Algae_Terrarium Algae Terrarium uses 300 g/s of water. https://oxygennotincluded.gamepedia.com/Air_Scrubber Air Scrubber uses 1000 g/s of water. So the scrubber uses more than 3x as much water, bro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FistfulOfZen Posted July 28, 2017 Author Share Posted July 28, 2017 22 hours ago, ScottFree said: What would be a natural and non arbitrary speed for gathering water? Can you carry a gallon of water comfortably? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FistfulOfZen Posted July 28, 2017 Author Share Posted July 28, 2017 17 hours ago, AlexRou said: I'm guessing he wants klei to hire 100 people to carry as much water as they can and then take the average. Unnecessary. The next time you go to the super market, pick up a 24 pack of bottled drinking water. Then use your brain to think about how much water you are actually carrying... Nevermind, I'll save you the trouble. 1 24 pack of 16.9 fl oz Aquafina water bottles is a total of 405.6 fl oz. That's 11.995 Kg. Dupes are effectively carrying 2 bottles at a time. Justify that to me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FistfulOfZen Posted July 28, 2017 Author Share Posted July 28, 2017 Actually, it's simpler than even that. The Dupes are picking up 1 Liter of water. Not a 3 Liter bottle of pop. Not a 2 Liter bottle of pop... 1 liter. Like... out of a vending machine. Maybe it's a bug. Maybe it's not. Either or, it's indefensibly ridiculous, again, though, they are adding a hand water pump to the game (rather than fixing the bug), so we'll see if that helps. That said, it may actually be very good, because Dupes won't go running around in water pointlessly getting the Sopping Wet trait and negative mood from Holding Breath, which they do constantly for me. :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FistfulOfZen Posted July 28, 2017 Author Share Posted July 28, 2017 On 7/26/2017 at 6:46 PM, Stinktooth said: The new water bottler should help out tremendously, if not solve this problem entirely. btw, I was just as frustrated with algae terrariums as you seem to be until I realized (via these forums) that you could partially submerge them to eliminate the water-delivery requirement. I've tried that, but that didn't seem to work, or it created other problems. I suppose I should give it another go. I'm at that point that I'm dependent on polluted water to keep things going, because there isn't a clean source of water anywhere near my base at present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasuha Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 2 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said: https://oxygennotincluded.gamepedia.com/Algae_Terrarium Algae Terrarium uses 300 g/s of water. https://oxygennotincluded.gamepedia.com/Air_Scrubber Air Scrubber uses 1000 g/s of water. So the scrubber uses more than 3x as much water, bro. You may also want to compare how much CO2 does each consume over the same period. Amount of water used per unit of removed CO2 is what counts as efficiency. Bro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexRou Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 6 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said: Unnecessary. The next time you go to the super market, pick up a 24 pack of bottled drinking water. Then use your brain to think about how much water you are actually carrying... Nevermind, I'll save you the trouble. 1 24 pack of 16.9 fl oz Aquafina water bottles is a total of 405.6 fl oz. That's 11.995 Kg. Dupes are effectively carrying 2 bottles at a time. Justify that to me? You're forgetting distance and strength. Sure most people can carry a 24 pack and put it into the trolley. How many can carry it a few miles while moving fast? Also as someone else has pointed out for you, it is only the puddles that are bugged. 75 KG is pretty much more than the average person can carry over a distance. So are you saying you want them to reduce the amount to 12 KG or less? Btw if you just mopped the puddles to make them only gather from large bodies of water things would be so much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueLance Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 You do know that dupes are not humans right? they will easily carry 75kg of water to deliver, if your worried about delivering water then make a sink right next to your microbe musher, then you will spend like 3 seconds filling it up with water. Wow what great time sink...or 3 seconds filling up 3 since multiple dupes can collect from a sink and deliver. Lock off all water except the sink and your sorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottFree Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 23 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said: Can you carry a gallon of water comfortably? A gallon of water is ~3Kg? So would you want dupes to carry 4Kg each trip? What would be a better number if that isn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolthulhu Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 On 7/28/2017 at 10:34 AM, BlueLance said: You do know that dupes are not humans right? they will easily carry 75kg of water to deliver Also the whole thing takes place on an asteroid, which may have arbitrarily weak gravity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueLance Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 On 29/07/2017 at 10:30 PM, Coolthulhu said: Also the whole thing takes place on an asteroid, which may have arbitrarily weak gravity. Also a fair point. Also carrying a gallon of water isn't exactly that bad, I've seen people running with a 1.5lt bottles, so i doubt walking with two of them would be very difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FistfulOfZen Posted August 7, 2017 Author Share Posted August 7, 2017 Yeah, this is what I'd like to see. Just more liquids. 3Kg would be fantastic, really. 4Kg seems to be on the high side, as far as what can be comfortable carried under normal gravity situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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