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Bristle blossom temp


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Hello there! I'm having problems keeping my bristles at the perfect temperature and I can't figure out where is the problem in my setup. As you can see, I have a loop of hydrogen at less than -10 degrees but my temps stay much higher than that... Do I have to wait multiple cycles to cool buildings inside the chamber? Is the 20 degrees water a problem even with insulated pipes? Thank you!

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Capture d’écran (8).png

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It will take time for the temp to decline, but you are also fighting the heat of the crop itself which starts at 19c at every planting and it has 400kg of mass. Having hydrogen directly in the room makes this a little tougher because it is the gas most readily going to exchange energy with the plants and warm up. The temperature of the plant doesn't matter in terms of getting ideal temp, just the temp of the gas around it.  A more insulating gas would work.

Insulated pipes not made of abyssalite are also not that great compared to just regular pipes/tiles of abyssalite.

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7 hours ago, leoladoudou said:

Do I have to wait multiple cycles to cool buildings inside the chamber? Is the 20 degrees water a problem even with insulated pipes?

Yes and yes.

Unless you supply it with a lot of gas, the thermal transfer will take a while, because a whole packet is just 1kg of gas, but a single non-gas tile will be about 400kg of material.

Insulated pipes transfer at a bit above 5% the speed, but that's still 5%. Same for insulated tiles. Use abyssalite instead.

There is a convection mechanic in the game. Hottest gases travel upwards. This means that your farm is built upside-down and the pump takes in the coldest gas.

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12 minutes ago, Coolthulhu said:

There is a convection mechanic in the game. Hottest gases travel upwards. This means that your farm is built upside-down and the pump takes in the coldest gas.

There's no convection. The gases don't travel anywhere (except for diffusion mechanic unrelated to temperature), just the heat travels, so it's good to cool things from above and heat them from below. 

I seriously hope devs will do something about plants since it's all seriously screwed up. Bristle Blossoms which require 0 C for optimum growth come as 400 kg of genetic ooze at 19.9 C, carrying 27.6 MW of extra heat per plant that they're going to be releasing over time, screwing up your air conditioning. For idea how much it is, you can dump 150 kg of liquid oxygen at -183 C on each plant and they will both reach 0 C when the temperature stabilizes.

At present the best idea is probably to have the plants in a gas into which they will release their heat as slowly as possible, and keep cooling that gas, best from above. Best gas for that purpose seems to be natural gas as that appears to be the slowest in drawing the heat from the plants. Second comes carbon dioxide, then oxygen, then hydrogen, and chlorine is worst. In an experiment I deployed identical plants at 19.9 C in each of the gases at 0 C and let the temperature keep settling for a while. Gases had the following resulting temperatures:

Natural Gas 14.3 C

Carbon Dioxide 15.7 C

Oxygen 16.3 C

Hydrogen 17.0 C

Chlorine 17.2 C

However the efficiency of the gas also depends on how you will cool it down. If you just send it through a regulator, then natural gas is probably best. If you'll try to cool it down using pipes or granite tiles and transfer from another coolant, then natural gas may not be a good idea since it has very low thermal conductivity and will be as reluctant to hand over the heat as it is to draw it from the plants. In such case I recommend carbon dioxide which has other advantages as well.

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Don't even try so. When a blossom first planted, it has the temperature of about 15oC, So don't try to keep a perfect yield domestic blossom.

Indeed, a wild growing blossom can always yield perfectly, just with the >=750g air pressure condition.

For blossom seed storage, you can keep a high-air-pressure wild growing farm. The way you plant blossom wildly, is that, you first build planter box on nature tiles, plant the blossom seed in, and then immediately deconstruct the planter boxes. The seeds remaining on the ground will grow slowly and finally have perfect yield (The process is slow however, cycled in 100 days)

For persistent blossom growing, you only need to maintain the water irrigation and the air pressure, which is simple. And don't forget to plant several wheezewort for keeping <=23oC growing temperature. These will keep you a good yield of blossoms. Moreover, it is recommended that you grow blossoms in a hydrogen environment, for two reasons: 1.sterile environment, so don't need labor to carry the bristles, just keep the uneaten bristles in place. 2. good temperature conductivity, it is easier for the wheezewort to keep the air cool (The activity of dups and the new grown blossoms will bring heat, so you always need a way to remove the extra heat.)

And keep in mind, the labor is expensive, don't fertilize the blossoms (you can lock your fertilizer in some locked place so that the dups won't do fertilization.)

Following my tips, you can have a low-labor blossom farm.

Those tips are for the later period of game. For earlier food supplement, just plant wheat in a cold environment. That will helps you for long time. Good luck!

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25 minutes ago, firshpear said:

Moreover, it is recommended that you grow blossoms in a hydrogen environment, for two reasons: 1.sterile environment, so don't need labor to carry the bristles, just keep the uneaten bristles in place. 2. good temperature conductivity, it is easier for the wheezewort to keep the air cool (The activity of dups and the new grown blossoms will bring heat, so you always need a way to remove the extra heat.)

I definitely recommend carbon dioxide or natural gas over hydrogen. Both are sterile environment as well, and in both the plants heat the gas up less than hydrogen while wheezeworts just cool the gas by constant amount (5 C).

 

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1 hour ago, Kasuha said:

At present the best idea is probably to have the plants in a gas into which they will release their heat as slowly as possible, and keep cooling that gas, best from above. Best gas for that purpose seems to be natural gas as that appears to be the slowest in drawing the heat from the plants. Second comes carbon dioxide, then oxygen, then hydrogen, and chlorine is worst. In an experiment I deployed identical plants at 19.9 C in each of the gases at 0 C and let the temperature keep settling for a while. Gases had the following resulting temperatures:

Natural Gas 14.3 C

Carbon Dioxide 15.7 C

Oxygen 16.3 C

Hydrogen 17.0 C

Chlorine 17.2 C

If you convert the temperature difference for each gas to joules transfered, which one will win in that case? (I can't start up the game right now to check myself) Chlorine may look pretty bad from the temperature alone but if a low heat capacity means that it hasn't actually transfered much energy from the plants, that means an external cooling system would have an easier time with Chlorine.

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Just now, Sevio said:

If you convert the temperature difference for each gas to joules transfered, which one will win in that case?

It is not about heat contents in this case. It is about heat flow, i.e. about ratio of how much energy is added by plants and how much is removed by the wheezewort or regulator. Since it's just single medium, the ratio is ratio of temperature change - both wheezewort and regulator decrease temperature of the gas by fixed amount, 5 C for wheezewort, 14 C for regulator. And as such, the best gas to use is the gas that heats up the least in presence of your plants.

Of course you can use the regulator and wheezeworts in hydrogen to increase effectivity. But putting your plants into hydrogen decreases the effectivity as they will just more readily release their heat too. Using single medium, best is natural gas. Using multiple media, best is hydrogen for cooling equipment and natural gas for plants with sufficient thermal contact between hydrogen and natural gas to keep your plants cold.

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Yeah, I should definitively try wheat. I might try a more optimised cooling system with natural gas when my setup around my 2 natural gas geysers + fertilisers + steam geyser + air scrubber is ready (no even close haha).

Thank's for helping!

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My question was aimed at the multiple media case. (hydrogen for cooling equipment, another gas in the planting room) Why do you say Natural gas is best in that case? It will take more regulator active time (or more wheezeworts in hydrogen) to cool the planting room's gas if Natural gas gains more energy than Chlorine or Carbon Dioxide.

If it's to minimize temperature fluctuations, I can see how Natural Gas would be a better choice even though it takes a bit more power from regulators or 1 extra wheezewort.

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3 hours ago, firshpear said:

Indeed, a wild growing blossom can always yield perfectly, just with the >=750g air pressure condition.

Your incorrect, you have to get ideal temperature as well to get excellent yield. Plus the blossoms take around 80 cycles to grow. Not a great way of doing it.

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1 hour ago, Sevio said:

My question was aimed at the multiple media case.

You weren't specific and OP uses hydrogen.

1 hour ago, Sevio said:

Why do you say Natural gas is best in that case?

 

1 hour ago, Kasuha said:

Using multiple media, best is hydrogen for cooling equipment and natural gas for plants with sufficient thermal contact between hydrogen and natural gas to keep your plants cold

The only problem I see on my statement is that it should have ended "to keep gas around your plants cold". Are you sure you did not misread it?

 

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40 minutes ago, GreatGameDota said:

Your incorrect, you have to get ideal temperature as well to get excellent yield. Plus the blossoms take around 80 cycles to grow. Not a great way of doing it.

There is a bug, no surprise, where harvest yield rate doesn't get adjusted for taking 4 times longer to grow.
This allows 1 modifier to act as the 4 modifiers required.
 

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@Kasuha

I can start up the game now and going by your list here's the amount of energy transferred during your experiment: (multiplying temperature difference by specific heat capacity of each gas, value is in J/g, assuming gas content per tile for each gas you tested is equal)

  • Natural Gas 14.3 C - 31.3 J / g
  • Carbon Dioxide 15.7 C - 13.3 J / g
  • Oxygen 16.3 C - 16.4 J / g
  • Hydrogen 17.0 C - 40.8 J / g
  • Chlorine 17.2 C - 8.26 J / g

So during your experiment chlorine gained the least amount of energy and natural gas is second to hydrogen, ahead of the other gases by a large margin.

An external hydrogen-based regulator cooler would have to work less hard to absorb the energy gained by chlorine than by the natural gas. But it would require a larger heat exchange area, since low thermal conductivity works both ways.

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38 minutes ago, Risu said:

There is a bug, no surprise, where harvest yield rate doesn't get adjusted for taking 4 times longer to grow.
This allows 1 modifier to act as the 4 modifiers required.

I grew natural Mealwood in one of my bases and I only got excellent yield if there was ideal pressure and temperature. Even if there is a bug, it still takes ages to grow.

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Okay, then all in all I think the optimum choice for two-media solution is carbon dioxide:

It is abundant, you can create as much as you need. There's only so much chlorine in each map.

It is the heaviest gas, meaning it pushes any pollution towards the ceiling and away from the plants.

Second lowest heat drawn from the plants, reducing both temperature change of plants over their vegetation period and requirements on heat removal.

I'm actually not sure if the fact that it had second lowest temperature change over the period is important for keeping the temperature in ideal range. Maybe yes, as it should react slower to changes in temperature of the cooling hydrogen.

 

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7 minutes ago, GreatGameDota said:

I grew natural Mealwood in one of my bases and I only got excellent yield if there was ideal pressure and temperature. Even if there is a bug, it still takes ages to grow.

How far did it get with only 1 of them? Sounds like it was struggling to maintain them so it went a few cycles without anything.
By having 2 of them, an expected harvest rating of 200% gives a far better chance at really being over 80% at final harvest.
 

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2 hours ago, Risu said:

How far did it get with only 1 of them?

I had the farm going for like 100-200 cycles and I stopped actively trying to maintain it. So I rarely got excellent yields. Just Good Yields. I never got a predicted 200 points. The most was like 106 or something.

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Right now, I'm trying to set up a farm that will allow me to feed all of my dupes stuffed berries.  It's taking me a long time to collect the seeds needed to bring my blossom count up, but this set up seems to work really well.  Although I'm at less than 50% of the blossoms needed for the stuffed berries, it is already labor intensive for the dupes to keep up with fertilizing and harvesting.  I'm worried that my dupes won't have enough time in a cycle to keep up with the demands once all the plants are in place.

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7 hours ago, Kasuha said:

I'm actually not sure if the fact that it had second lowest temperature change over the period is important for keeping the temperature in ideal range. Maybe yes, as it should react slower to changes in temperature of the cooling hydrogen.

It is - the changes are less chaotic, easier to control with weak heat sources (especially ones with exhaust heat, which seems to skip heat conductivity), less affected by dupes' body heat and heat of new plants, less dependent on reaching equilibrium and so on.

Heat conductive gas may have an advantage in that it should reach equilibrium quicker, but every entering dupe, every planted seed, every airlock close action deleting gas in it and requiring feeding from a (probably too hot or too cold) external source would disrupt the equilibrium more than for badly conductive gas.

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16 hours ago, GreatGameDota said:

Your incorrect, you have to get ideal temperature as well to get excellent yield. Plus the blossoms take around 80 cycles to grow. Not a great way of doing it.

No, You just try it and will find you don't need ideal temperature. 

The estimated growing point isn't true in game. When you plant one, you'll know it.

I have said that, the blossom farm is just for the later period, not for the early period. If you only wants to maintain survival, plant wheat instead.

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9 hours ago, clamjam said:

Right now, I'm trying to set up a farm that will allow me to feed all of my dupes stuffed berries.  It's taking me a long time to collect the seeds needed to bring my blossom count up, but this set up seems to work really well.  Although I'm at less than 50% of the blossoms needed for the stuffed berries, it is already labor intensive for the dupes to keep up with fertilizing and harvesting.  I'm worried that my dupes won't have enough time in a cycle to keep up with the demands once all the plants are in place.

 

Yes, it costs a lot of labor. So after basic seed collection, when you have enough blossom seed, then lock up all the fertilizer, and don't fertilize the blossoms. With ideal air pressure and irrigation, the plants will have good yield.

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1 minute ago, firshpear said:

when you have enough blossom seed, then lock up all the fertilizer, and don't fertilize the blossoms.

I think it's almost better to cut on irrigation and harvesting, even though it means going through the harvest settings all the time to keep the autoharvest off. Fertilizer is plentiful, it's byproduct of power generation...

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1 minute ago, Kasuha said:

I think it's almost better to cut on irrigation and harvesting, even though it means going through the harvest settings all the time to keep the autoharvest off. Fertilizer is plentiful, it's byproduct of power generation...

Your idea is good. However, (I don't know whether I'm wrong, you can check it again in game), I find that, when the "not autoharvest" plants planted the second time, it will be in autoharvest again. So you need to keep marking it.

I know that your NG power generator is build with the fertilizer maker. You can lock them together so that you don't have any fertilizer while you can still benefit power from the fertilizer maker

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9 minutes ago, firshpear said:

So you need to keep marking it.

Yes, that's what I meant by the "going through the harvest settings all the time to keep the autoharvest off". Sadly devs didn't do anything about it even though it was mentioned even before the AU went public. I guess it's left for future polishing.

You can also cut on fertilizing time significantly by making some storage boxes dedicated to fertilizer right in the farm.

 

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