Net cooling

[Sevio]

I wonder if you could get a wheezewort to cool steam somehow...

[Kasuha]

51 minutes ago, Sevio said:

Geysers are a constant input of mass (and heat) into the map, so it would make sense there is a corresponding (potential) drain on the other end that must be harnessed and used properly to avoid heat death.

Maybe the intention is that any colony eventually will end in heat death if played long enough.

None of geyser heat has to reach environment of your colony - you can route the hot water directly to utilities that will use it, and gas directly to generators, both using abyssalite pipes. The heat produced by your technology is the only actual concern. But you can deal with it using the same approach, for instance you can cool your technology with polluted water and then irrigate your plants with it. My fertilizer maker farm is cooled by its own exhaust - natural gas. Air scrubbers can be cooled by CO2 sent to them for processing. And so on. I don't think the heat death is inevitable with current game, in my opinion it's far from it even without liquid cooler.

 

[thejams]

@Kasuha That is only due to the ability to destroy huge amounts of heat when using resources in machines, which quite possibly may be unintended.  However it is true that this mechanism of irrelevant input resource temperature and fixed output temperatures is what is enabling a zero sum colony right now.

Damn, I would love to hear the devs thoughts on this

[Sevio]

@thejams All of this comes down to conservation of energy, and by extension, conservation of mass. (in the absence of nuclear reactions I think we can safely ignore that subject here)

A lot of machines in the game are not mass conserving, so even with improvements to machines considering their input and output temps you can destroy heat in a machine that destroys mass.

The same goes for duplicants, oxygen is destroyed and a tiny amount of CO2 is produced where in reality the O2 we convert when breathing weighs less than the CO2 that we breathe out. Although I don't think oxygen can be used as a waste heat dump because to usefully destroy heat with it you would have to heat it beyond temperatures that duplicants find comfortable. (to get something that is cold enough to cool the rest of your base to a comfortable temperature)

[CobraA1]

20 hours ago, rezecib said:

... peeking at the files... Nope, you're right, the tepidizer appears to be literally set to 4 MW:

Wait - code? Reverse engineering, or is some of the code available somewhere?

[rezecib]

@CobraA1 https://oxygennotincluded.gamepedia.com/Guide/Working_with_the_Game_Files

[The Flying Fox]

14 hours ago, thejams said:

@Kasuha That is only due to the ability to destroy huge amounts of heat when using resources in machines, which quite possibly may be unintended.  However it is true that this mechanism of irrelevant input resource temperature and fixed output temperatures is what is enabling a zero sum colony right now.

Damn, I would love to hear the devs thoughts on this

I'm sure they'd tell you their first priority is gameplay and that the game is fun.  It's obvious that they designed the foundation of the game around the elements and physics of real life, but at some point, a line has be drawn in the sand between gameplay and hard simulation.

 

Not only are there considerations for the 'fun' element, but also for the simulation's sake.  Computers can only handle so much processing so they've certainly had to skim off interactions that you'd normally find in real life, but aren't present in ONI.  They have certainly taken an artistic license when it comes to the laws of thermo-dynamics, for better or worse.   

[Cilya]

I also played a lot with mass destruction to destroy heat. 95° water to hydrolyzers, batteries and natural gas generator heat to pincha pepper famrs. I even tried to cool geyser a bit with the hydrogen fed to the hydrogen generator. It seems I have reached some kind of equilibrium with heat.

Still, I have some doubts about that. Some things I have not really well understood with steam geyser and you can probably help me with that. When completely isolated with abyssalite, they sometimes end up completely over pressurized and do not output neither steam nor water. I've tried several setup, letting the water partialy or completely submerge the vent but I did not find any rule to how much water can be extracted from an isolated geyser. Some geyser were producing two times more than other. But none of the isolated geyser were able to produce as much as the closed but slightly cooled with hydrogen one or as much as an opened "naturally cooled" one.

[Sevio]

It would however be a good thing for them to fix the worst temperature exploits if heat is to be a problem in the game. I'd much rather see people coming up with legitimate contraptions and base designs to limit, recycle or stave off heat than what will eventually become a cookie cutter pipe bridge cooler wherever they want to remove some heat.

[Kasuha]

1 hour ago, Sevio said:

It would however be a good thing for them to fix the worst temperature exploits if heat is to be a problem in the game. I'd much rather see people coming up with legitimate contraptions and base designs to limit, recycle or stave off heat than what will eventually become a cookie cutter pipe bridge cooler wherever they want to remove some heat.

List of ONI thermodynamic problems known to me:

 

Bug/exploit: Rapid cooling of liquid by dropping small amount of cold liquid on it.

Bug/exploit: Temperature averaging regardless of mass transferred (including no mass) through bridges

Bug: Thermal transfer between contents of the pipe and the pipe itself acting as if the contents has only 1 gram

Bug: Thermal transfer between tile and pipe embedded in it acts as if there's nearly zero thermal transfer distance

Bug (not investigated yet): Plant temperatures sometimes reset to ambient temperature (aroud harvest time? save/load? external impulse?)

Flaw: Buildings only have 1/5 of mass when calculating their heat exchange. That means they have also 1/5 heat capacity per building compared to values shown by the game

Flaw: Heaters apply 200 times more heating than what is the value displayed by the game

Flaw: Plants are planted at 20 C, and have constant 400 kg mass 

Flaw: Most buildings ignore temperature of material they process and don't adjust their heat production and product temperature to it.

 

But the greatest thermodynamic crime in the game is abyssalite.

[Cilya]

Let's dream. Perhaps that, in this matter, being inspired by realism might be a good thing. I remember reading than using the void to "destroy" gases would render the air scrubber useless and as such wouldn't be a great idea. But it could be used to radiate heat away. I also remembered about asteroid surface in the same subject. So, the asteroid surface could be used to place some radiators (like those used in the ISS [1]) and destroy some heat, proportionally to the temperature of the radiator. It would need some kind of drawbacks so to be not as easy to exploit such that it remains useful to do heat management in the colony. It may be enough to give them a low efficiency, thus requiring a lot of previous metal like the rare wolframite.

[1] https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/structure/elements/radiators.html#.WUux8TdpzmE

Oh, more seriously, I have another question. Do the water fed to the plants change the temperature of the plant ? Can you feed 95° water to sleet wheat ?

[Sevio]

Yes, you could use the void (aka hole to space) to dump unwanted gas (and unwanted heat with it), but that would be something to think twice about if the rest of the game were mass conserving. Everything you throw out into the void isn't coming back and permanently reduces how much "stuff" is available to you.

If they added an asteroid surface gameplay element, that would definitely make radiators and heatpumps an attractive option to dump unwanted heat.

9 hours ago, Kasuha said:

But the greatest thermodynamic crime in the game is abyssalite.

What's wrong with abyssalite? It may not be something we have in real life but I can see how it's needed for the temperature shenanigans we can do with cooling gases or boiling water. Especially with insulated pipes doing their job very poorly, and insulated non-abyssalite tiles leaving a lot to be desired as well.

[Masterpintsman]

11 hours ago, Cilya said:

Oh, more seriously, I have another question. Do the water fed to the plants change the temperature of the plant ? Can you feed 95° water to sleet wheat ?

No and yes.

[Kasuha]

12 hours ago, Cilya said:

Oh, more seriously, I have another question. Do the water fed to the plants change the temperature of the plant ? Can you feed 95° water to sleet wheat ?

No, it doesn't change temperature of the plant or the hydroponic tile. But if you forget to make the pipe out of abyssalite, it will change temperature of the pipe and that will heat up your farm.

[Trego]

On 6/20/2017 at 9:32 AM, NanoD said:

Electrolyzer emits gas att about 70C 

Air scrubbers and water purifiers emits polluted water at 40C, yeah let your dupes take a steaming hot shower and you get nice and "cold" polluted water at 40C. 

But easy the best way to destroy heat is with plants, they start att 19.8C and have a mass of 400kg. And replant them and the temp reset to 19,8C.

But the best way to destroy heat is how water "cooling" works right now. I did a post a about it showing how you can cool down tons and tons of hot water with just a few kilos of water. If they fix that bug, then it will be hard.

Defining 'best' way to destroy heat depends on your assumptions for measuring better.  I did the math for a water purifier and it destroyed something like 5.5 MW of heat under optimal conditions, although the math for heat produced by lavatories and showers is gives shockingly high results if you start with geyser water.  Anyway, in that lame thread where the guy was talking about his polluted 02 to liquid oxygen converted using the old circulation bug, I realized that there has been very little exploration in this forum community of the possibilities of using the liquid cooling bug you posted about directly on liquid oxygen.  Water's specific heat and distance from condensation point to freezing point is much higher than LOX, so water is ten times better at cooling very hot things down, but water is also limited by a much higher condensation point, and if you are actually trying to cool oxygen, you have the advantage of being able to cool oxygen with oxygen by means of mixing gases, which isn't practicable with water because steam is too hot to be a cooling gas agent for the temperature ranges we're talking about.  

 

Anyways, if we assume we're cooling LOX from 85 Kelvin to 60 K super efficiently with the  bug, and then design a whirlpool dropper to convert polluted oxygen to LOX, at that point we're making and cooling LOX so efficiently (due to the exploit) that we have the option of cooling oxygen by running clean hot oxygen gas through an oxygen liquifier, which is something that you pretty much never see currently.  Let's just work with theoretical 888 g/s electrolyzer output to be unrealistic, so 888g/s of LOX production, cooling to 60K, feed that back into 4 other electrolyzer productions coming out at 343 K, and you get a new temperature of (343*4 + 60)/5 = 286.4 K or 13.4 Celsius, assuming you didn't get some extra cooling from the thermo bug in that combination.  Is that better than water cooling and then using water to cool oxygen?  How are we measuring better?  space taken, power used, elegance?  My design could be done with zero radiator pipe arrays, which is a refreshing change, and to me the greatest advantage of this design.(although you need a substantial amount of LOX to jumpstart the design, which you'd probably make with a normal radiator condensor, although you could use a bubbler.)  I think it's a fun base challenge--allowing yourself to abuse the heck out of the current thermo exploit, build a base which can liquify and boil all the things, without using any pipe radiator systems  (by current thermo exploit, I'm referring to either or both of 1 and 2 on Kasuha's list, which I suspect to be two instances of one bug, actually)

[Trego]

On 6/22/2017 at 5:11 AM, Cilya said:

Let's dream. Perhaps that, in this matter, being inspired by realism might be a good thing. I remember reading than using the void to "destroy" gases would render the air scrubber useless and as such wouldn't be a great idea.

realism is a double edged sword.  Having the void exist would be more realistic, as it's simply the void of outer space.  Using the void to destroy gases, as a single change, does render the air scrubber mainly useless, unless your colony is short on polluted water.  However, plants needing CO2 to grow would also be more realistic, so at that higher level of realism dumping essential plant food into outer space would be a very bad idea.  The point here is that realism is not a simple one dimensional, black and white concept, but has to be judged at a systems level. Sevio wants to put in mass conservation but Klei has made it pretty clear with their decisions that they don't want that constraint on them.

[Whispershade]

Unless I misunderstand the falling liquid exploit, you need some mechanism to further cool the liquid in transit to the holding tank and the limit is the cooler bottom. -60c for wheeze worts and water and presumably approaching the condensation point of the hydrogen cooler for the falling liquid O2.

[Whispershade]

On 6/22/2017 at 7:56 AM, Kasuha said:

List of ONI thermodynamic problems known to me:

...

Bug: Thermal transfer between contents of the pipe and the pipe itself acting as if the contents has only 1 gram

...

Wait, does this mean the the quantity of material being piped to cool or heat doesn't matter because it only considers a gram? Or that it just effects conductivity but not capacity.

Do I misunderstand this badly?

[NanoD]

What I ment with best way to cool water is this.

you have a water column like the picture. and by cooling the top layer what ever way you want. you will cool everything under it to same temperature. So if I cool the top layer that have only 1 kilo, 1 C everything under will have the same temperature even if there is tons and tons of water.

[Trego]

14 minutes ago, Whispershade said:

Unless I misunderstand the falling liquid exploit, you need some mechanism to further cool the liquid in transit to the holding tank and the limit is the cooler bottom. -60c for wheeze worts and water and presumably approaching the condensation point of the hydrogen cooler for the falling liquid O2.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here

[NanoD]

Quote

Quoting my self

Air scrubbers and water purifiers emits polluted water at 40C, yeah let your dupes take a steaming hot shower and you get nice and "cold" polluted water at 40C. 

Yeah notice that they have fix that input and output temp on showers is the same now. Before they had it set to 40C on the output temp.

[NanoD]

10 minutes ago, Trego said:

Notice that you put my name on the quotation but the text inside is originally yours, so you're correcting your own mistake there, not mine.  If you want to correct your mistakes, go edit your original post and explain your edit, don't attribute your words to me. Thanks.

Yeah my mistake.

[Whispershade]

1 hour ago, Trego said:

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here

Sorry, using the exploit to drip cold liquids to cool large bodies of liquid still requires a cooling medium. In the case of liquid O2 that is going to remain hydrogen whether bubbler or radiator style to super cool tiles the liquid O2 comes in contact with to further reduce its temp prior to falling into the tank to be cooled. This can increase efficiency of super cooling the O2, but the bottom limit remains the same, the condensation point if hydrogen.

[Trego]

10 minutes ago, Whispershade said:

Sorry, using the exploit to drip cold liquids to cool large bodies of liquid still requires a cooling medium. In the case of liquid O2 that is going to remain hydrogen whether bubbler or radiator style to super cool tiles the liquid O2 comes in contact with to further reduce its temp prior to falling into the tank to be cooled. This can increase efficiency of super cooling the O2, but the bottom limit remains the same, the condensation point if hydrogen.

The bottom limit is in fact higher than the condensation point of hydrogen, as the freezing point of 02 is above the condensation point of H2. I already addressed this limit earlier, in the comparison of using 02 vs H20.  Although maybe dropping frozen bits of O2 would still use the bug? That's a good question, actually; but not very practical.

[Kasuha]

2 hours ago, Whispershade said:

Wait, does this mean the the quantity of material being piped to cool or heat doesn't matter because it only considers a gram? Or that it just effects conductivity but not capacity.

Do I misunderstand this badly?

The problem is, there is, say 1 kg of hydrogen at -200 C, and 5 kg of pipe at 0 C. The simulator behaves as if there's just one gram of hydrogen in calculating the heat difference - how much energy it takes from 1 g of hydrogen to exchange heat with 5 kg of pipe. Well, it's pretty small amount of energy. And it then draws this amount of energy from that 1 kg. That's why the heat exchange in pipes is so slow.