NanoD

Electrolyzer producing wrong proportions

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Grimgaw    24

Yeah wheezeworts pull 1kg of gas from bottom part up while cooling it by 5K

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Sevio    28
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, The Flying Fox said:

Because the Wheezeworts basically act as pumps.  They suck in air from the bottom tile, and blow it out from the top tile.  They can pretty effectively channel gases in one direction, basically upwards.  I had a feeling they could be exploited for something like this :D

 

Also, your math is slightly off, but the concept is correct.  The hydrogen pump doesn't spend 120 J/s for the 112gs, it'll spend it for whatever you set the atmo switch for, so it can pump full 500g packets into the pipe.  So, they're even cheaper to run.  The electrolzyer itself, many times, doesn't operate at full speed, but still uses 120 J/s in those cases.  In an open system, it probably runs at the 666 and 333 g/s more, then a closed system does, but yeah, an oxygen pump definitely soaks up a good chunk of power.

 

As for gas filters, they use 120 J/s for every packet (no matter the size of it) they process.  Packets move through at 1 packet a second through pipes.  So, if you send 500 gram packets through a filter, you're wasting half of its output for nothing in return.

Ah that's pretty cool to know that they act as pumps :)

As for the electrolyzer math, I do believe the math is correct (as correct as the tooltips are, anyway). I did my calculations based on 1000g of air generated by the electrolyzer, which is 2 seconds of pumping and takes 480 J, assuming you set the switches high enough so the pumps always give off 500g packets. For the hydrogen only version, I accounted for a cost of 53.76 J for the pumping of 112g of hydrogen (but still 120W for the electrolyzer creating 1000g of air) for a running cost of 173.76 J per 1000g of water.

But if the electrolyzer can run at lower speeds and still use 120W while doing so because of high pressure, that does affect the efficiency. As does the filter but of course we've been trying to make that obsolete now :)

Side question, is there a reliable way to force packets to bunch up into 1000 g packets for more efficient filtering?

Edited by Sevio

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@Sevio

Hmmm, I was thinking that the 53.76 J would also apply to the closed system for its hydrogen pump, but now that I'm thinking more deeply about it, the oxygen pump has to make up for hydrogen pump not running all the time, due to the difference in gas proportions.  So, you're right!

 

And yes, there is!  Its called a packet combiner:

20170617165005_1.jpg

20170617164956_1.jpg 

 

This is from my old Thermal Update base.  I used this quite a bit there to save as much power as I could.  That included regulating the speed of the CO2 scrubber when we didn't have atmo switches.  (The scrubber uses a full 120 J/s regardless to the amount of CO2 its processing)  The input valve (Left valve) is set to whatever the desired output is, then the bridges basically recombine packets into bigger full sized packets.  The second valve (Right valve) is not usually needed.

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Sevio    28
Posted (edited)

@The Flying Fox

Interesting design for how to combine the packets! Is there a rule of thumb for how many pipe bridges are needed? I'm guessing it depends on the desired output flow.

And if you have a mixed stream of gases/liquids coming in from a pump and you want them to combine before going in the filter, how many would you need then?

Edited by Sevio
Accidentally posted empty

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Kasuha    427
12 minutes ago, The Flying Fox said:

And yes, there is!  Its called a packet combiner

It's possible to build something that will always output maximum size packets of given gas/liquid regardless in how small amounts it comes. But since it uses the mechanical filter technology, it's usually easier to employ the mechanical filter itself instead of building the concentrator to save on powered filters.

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5 minutes ago, Sevio said:

@The Flying Fox

Interesting design for how to combine the packets! Is there a rule of thumb for how many pipe bridges are needed? I'm guessing it depends on the desired output flow.

And if you have a mixed stream of gases/liquids coming in from a pump and you want them to combine before going in the filter, how many would you need then?

Correct.  It depends on the desired output but also the capacity of the pipe in question.  Liquid pipes having 10x the capacity of gas pipes.  Every time you use a pipe bridge like this, it cuts the capacity in half, while increasing the packet sizes by 2.  4 gas pipe bridges is generally what I was using before in my old Thermal base.

 

20170617172715_1.jpg

If you're trying to handle a mixed stream of different gases from the output of a pump, then try more pipe bridges.  Otherwise, you could go with mechanical filters as @Kasuha just mentioned.  They can spit out nearly full sized packets while also filtering the fluids/gases.  Personally, I avoid using them as they feel a little too.. 'cheaty' for me.  *Shrug*  The Devs obviously intended that filtering gas within pipes would cost 120J/s.  But, that's just my personal feeling on them.

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Sevio    28
Posted (edited)

What exactly are "Mechanical filters"? Is it using physical gas properties (rising up, sinking down) to separate gases in a room like with the electrolyzer setups or is there some kind of pipe arrangement you can build that separates gas types without a powered filter?

Edit: Nevermind, I did a search and found a thread explaining them. That looks useful, but I do agree it sounds a bit cheaty...

Edited by Sevio

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Kasuha    427
6 hours ago, The Flying Fox said:

they feel a little too.. 'cheaty' for me.

Well, I guess it's an unintended consequence of intended functionality, since bridge outputs work very differently from any other outputs and we don't hesitate to use these their properties anywhere else. Plus mechanical filter is a "half filter" since you're guaranteed the filtered output will be always clean but aren't guaranteed the unfiltered output will be. And they're definitely harder to set up than standard filters.

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Sevio    28

Perhaps you could fix the negatives by setting up a mechanical filter for all possible gases coming through the main line and anything that fails to get filtered gets looped back to the start of the filter area with priority... If that's even possible.

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Posted (edited)

i've read the thread, seen that some of yall getting the near perfect ratio which would be 14/111 or 0.1261

i was still interested tho and ran a closed system in debug mod with unlimited power and cooling to test the electrolyzer.  it'd prolly be better if i setup multiples of the same design but i figured running it for a long time prolly amounts to the same.  i ran it from start of cycle 234 to end of cycle 296 - fast debug speed which may or may not cause problems - i don't know

it never overpressured (pumps right next to it) as far as i could tell while watching it but it did do some weird stuff like everything just powered off simultaneously for a fraction of a second every once in a while for reasons unknown to me.  adequate power production and the lines weren't overtaxed so i have no clue why other than maybe the speed. it also never overheated.  

anyways it produced 27,670.6 kg of oxygen and 3,155.1 kg hydrogen which is .1140 compared to the .1261 ideal.  the gas was collected into chambers that took advantage of the liquid on vent exploit.  i can only conclude that gas is getting deleted somewhere in my system

edit: no wheezeworts used as someone said they delete gas but i don't know if that's true or not so i just didn't bother.   used a hydrogen radiator pulling the gas from a very cold room of practically infinite hydrogen and the exhaust was just pumped into a void room to avoid the problem of cooling it down again

Edited by bopeep8hersheep

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Sevio    28

If you're just using a big room rather than mechanical separation like some of the designs above, there is always a chance that the electrolyzer fails to place a hydrogen bubble because it can't displace all the oxygen in one of its tiles to make room. That reduces the hydrogen ratio.

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Whispershade    69
5 hours ago, bopeep8hersheep said:

fast debug speed which may or may not cause problems - i don't know

This causes a lot of issues actually.  One of the symptoms is the intermittent power failure you mentioned. But gas interactions get dodgy too.

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@Whispershade thanks.  guess i'll have to test stuff at slower speeds now if i want complete accuracy.  @Sevio i was using a very small room - basically only room for the electrolyzer and the pumps - no switches.  it started out as vacuum. 

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Sevio    28

In that case your room is probably not using mechanical separation of the hydrogen then, (it requires a specific, intentional design to take advantage of) so you will be losing hydrogen to the aforementioned bug. (failure to displace oxygen, hydrogen placement gets skipped)

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yah i was using mechanical filter. the room never had spare oxygen flitting around - it was getting pumped pretty much immediately.   but idk - maybe.  i thought it might have something to do with the liquid vent trick - maybe it sometimes doesn't place the hydrogen?  

also read someone said pipe bridges destroy mass in some thread (maybe even this one) and the mechanical filter was using 2 of em.  unfortunately i didn't save that world - so i'd have to build it again to show a pic.  not a big deal.  just lazy atm

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Sevio    28
Posted (edited)

I don't mean mechanical pipe filter using bridges. I mean a room layout that forces hydrogen (even at low pressures) to occupy the top tiles of a room and flow into a side room with a pump, preventing oxygen from reaching that pump and thus making any pipe based filter unnecessary.

Some examples in one of my previous post, I'd recommend the rightmost one for stability if you're going with a half open design that does not use wheezeworts.

If you do want to use wheezeworts you can use this Electrowheeze design, its throughput will be high but it could cause overpressure in your base if left unchecked, making it hard to use air vents for other purposes.

Similar electrowheeze example build on the wiki as well: http://oxygennotincluded.gamepedia.com/Guide/Oxygen#Example_Builds

Edited by Sevio
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i appreciate the links.  i'm currently using the electrowheeze design from the wiki - modified so that they both pull through the vase.  

the test i did earlier was just trying to get full productivity out of an electrolyzer.  no downtime.  and it didn't really have downtime - but didn't produce the right proportion for some reason.

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