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EuedeAdodooedoe

How come Klei keeps implementing useless/underpowered and highly exploitative items?

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Rellimarual    1,903
1 hour ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

I didn't expect half the users here to **** all over this topic. I guess the bias will continue.

Guy, I am sorry if my posting was harsh: It was not entirely about you but about the complaint that no one is allowed to be critical on the forums. However, surely you can see how weird it is when you say other members are being too sensitive and get angry too easily but then you are exactly the same when someone criticizes you.

You know that feeling you had about my post? That is the way you make a lot of people on the forum feel, and that is one of the reasons why you get so much pushback. You would probably get more respectful attention to your suggestions if you presented them in a more considerate and respectful way. That's not to say everyone will agree with you. Just because you strongly feel that things should be a certain way doesn't mean that's a fact and that everyone who disagrees is stupid. But you're not getting anywhere the way you're doing it now, and the skill of communicating with other people in a constructive way is a really valuable one that you could be learning here.

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1 hour ago, Glhrmzz said:

I legit never wanted to slap someone so much in a forum. Your post is full of nitpicking but yet you judge other nitpicking in your constant hate, demands and ilusions about the game?

Can't you me like the ones who didn't like DST and change moved on ? Clearly is no longer your cup of tee, and neither is the community by the looks of it. So make your self and us a favor and MOVE ON or deal with the changes that are inevitable.

 

No. This topic's question is in regards to the process implementation of any highly imbalanced items currently in the game. The two new items are not nitpicking, they are examples, if that is what you're referring to when you said that I was nitpicking. The reason I took them as examples was for the sole reason of demonstrating that the large imbalance continues.

I do not understand what the problem with so many of you here is with me asking a question and then giving two examples of recently introduced items that seem to have pretty high balance issues.

23 minutes ago, Rellimarual said:

Guy, I am sorry if my posting was harsh: It was not entirely about you but about the complaint that no one is allowed to be critical on the forums. However, surely you can see how weird it is when you say other members are being too sensitive and get angry too easily but then you are exactly the same when someone criticizes you.

You know that feeling you had about my post? That is the way you make a lot of people on the forum feel, and that is one of the reasons why you get so much pushback. You would probably get more respectful attention to your suggestions if you presented them in a more considerate and respectful way. That's not to say everyone will agree with you. Just because you strongly feel that things should be a certain way doesn't mean that's a fact and that everyone who disagrees is stupid. But you're not getting anywhere the way you're doing it now, and the skill of communicating with other people in a constructive way is a really valuable one that you could be learning here.

I don't take criticism of my content as something dumb. I analise it and if I find that it is just blahbouring, I may get pissed, because everyone has their limits. But if I find that the post has some point to it, I'll take its word for it and try to improve if possible. In any case, I think such issues are best left to discuss in PMs with the particular person you have issues with, since otherwise it just derails topics that don't even intend to cause a flame war. Also, I rarely think about whether something may come off as rude to someone, because it takes way too long. This topic wasn't excessively rude and I don't even find it rude in any way, so to see people take it as rude is baphling to me.

I never said anyone who disagrees is stupid, what gives that notion? Stop that crap, because I've said in the past, multiple times, that that is not how I view it. Anything can have change of thought provided to it, if reasoning for a case can be provided to demonstrate why what it is replying to is incorrect in some way.

I'm starting to think that people are trying to take things for themselves to sound bad just because they are coming from me. It would be nice if people desensitized to something that so obviously wasn't intended nor even was rude. Or, on the other hand, provide me with examples, in a PM, of how and/or why my post and/or topic title was rude in any form. I am a thick person, so I cannot comprehend it when hihgly sensitive people get offended by things I find to be miniscule.

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Glhrmzz    897
1 hour ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

 I am a thick person, so I cannot comprehend it when hihgly sensitive people get offended by things I find to be miniscule.

Roflmao. Sure you are kiddo! 

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1 minute ago, Glhrmzz said:

Roflmao. Sure you are kiddo! 

I think you don't have a clue of what I mean by "thick". Either way, if you want to continue this "discussion", PM me. This is not what the topic was made for.

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Glhrmzz    897
Just now, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

I think you don't have a clue of what I mean by "thick". Either way, if you want to continue this "discussion", PM me. This is not what the topic was made for.

If you think this is not the topic you should maybe analise how you express your self out. You don't see this happening in other topics here in forum. Take a wild guess why.  It's like your signature, "Hey i can sound like an ass, but please don't sound like an ass to me, Thank you"

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@Glhrmzz Thing is, I don't understand because people aren't giving me examples of how and why something is rude and how it could be written to not sound like that. Either way, I'm not going to respond anymore. In any case not opic is made, or is allowed to be made in regards to any particular person, so you backfire here. And that is not what my signiture is meant to imply nor implies, unless you have a particular bias against me. Tired of this time-waste, I'm done responding.

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Lumina    1,532

What does " blahbouring " mean ?

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Donke60    2,537

@EuedeAdodooedoe it's OK  if you don't understand how someone can be hurt or take issue with how you talk here on the fourms.  But with that you have to give people a heads up that if something comes off rude that you don't mean it because honestly the way you phrase things makes you seem very aggressive and it's not just  One or two examples. It's everything that you do or say i'll try or someone can to show you how you come off so aggressive and does yo i'll try or someone can to show you how you come off so aggressive and  as you say I'll PM to you but I think the best course of action is for you to take your posts and make a third-party look over them  to see how you come off when you make a post 

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Donke60    2,537
1 hour ago, Lumina said:

What does " blahbouring " mean ?

In this context I'm going to say manure posting or making idiotic aggressive statements toward someone 

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@Donke60 While I can't understand half of what you've said, I can kind of understand what you're trying to say. And alright, I'll try that. In fact, already applied that to my next topic. Although, in terms of that topic, a bit ironic what you've done here and over there.

Trying to get back on-topic, has anyone got any clue about how balance may end up so bad for some items/things in the game? I guess the "on-paper, but in practice" thing makes a bit more sense, but wouldn't Klei note that some items may just simply be superior to what they're trying to implement the way they are (for underpowered/unreliable/barely useful/useless items, that is)?

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Donke60    2,537
10 minutes ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

@Donke60 While I can't understand half of what you've said, I can kind of understand what you're trying to say. And alright, I'll try that. In fact, already applied that to my next topic. Although, in terms of that topic, a bit ironic what you've done here and over there.

Trying to get back on-topic, has anyone got any clue about how balance may end up so bad for some items/things in the game? I guess the "on-paper, but in practice" thing makes a bit more sense, but wouldn't Klei note that some items may just simply be superior to what they're trying to implement the way they are (for underpowered/unreliable/barely useful/useless items, that is)?

 well see this update just got released so I think it's a bit early as everyone said to call it useless right out of the "gate" 

 As for Klei knowing what items are superior to others,I'm sure they do  but what you have to realize is this game isn't a competitive game and not everyone is going to have the best starts or the best picks  or even come into the game with  even the thought  that they want to do or be the most efficient or effective and are really looking for a challenge.

I myself play the game to relax so for me having more items brings more options and experimenting which keeps the game fresh even if it's not the best thing. Because frankly I don't care about doing the best. 

Besides this itself could be an experiment on what works in the game world as Kiel seems to be getting more creative with item effects and if things go well they could make more effective bomb like items 

Or this could just be fun item concepts they decided to put into the game. 

 

 

 

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Rellimarual    1,903

Well, since you asked, this:

18 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

You'd think Klei would know what they are doing.

is a snotty remark. It's clear from your many previous postings (which influence how each of your new postings is received, because of course they do) that you think Klei does not know what they are doing and that you're shocked --shocked!--that they haven't immediately implemented your very long laundry list of recommendations. It's also a completely unnecessary remark that's really on there just to be snotty. You could have removed it completely and probably eliminated a lot of your troubles in this round.

3 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

I never said anyone who disagrees is stupid, what gives that notion?

5 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

The purpose of this topic, which is in the title, if you're too stupid to understand

And don't even THINK about claiming that you were only calling people stupid because they didn't understand your topic. Everyone understands it. They just don't all agree with the assumption embedded in it  (that Klei "keeps" introducing useless items and exploits) or the tone.  Other forum members are perfectly entitled to take issue with that stuff, and if there's a threshold beyond which it's OK to call other forum members stupid, you did not get anywhere close to it.

3 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

I rarely think about whether something may come off as rude to someone, because it takes way too long.

If you don't want to take other people's feelings into consideration, then you can't really demand that they take your feelings into consideration, so you should not complain when they criticize your style. I don't actually advocate either of those two courses, but it's reciprocal. You can't expect other people to treat you better than you treat them (except maybe your parents). You have legit material to contribute to the forum, but you keep shooting yourself in the foot. Plus, I can't help but think that learning to empathize more with other people would probably help you in a lot of other areas as well.

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okay, thank you for clarifying, this should have been done by someone since the beginning. I can understand why someone would think "you would think that" would come off as rude. I didn't intend it. I often intend what I write as if I were to speak in a normal speech. Some people simply talk in a way that others may find rude and not realize it. A friend of mine does this on a regular even worse than me and it gets me thinking "does he even realize the way he just said that?" There are different levels of sensitivity. None is going to be able to write things to a point where everyone can see that it's not rude. For some people some things you find completely normal or would even be shocked that they are considered rude (hurr hurr) are things they find extremely offensive. You can't not offend everyone. And neither can I.

A lot of things can be interpreted in different ways. I for one never thought that what I wrote would even come out as rude, I only thought of what I intended to write. Since writing in terms of tone can differ on your intewpretation... not my problem if you find it rude.

And yes, I did think other people didn't understand my topic... what else do you think I thought? I'm trying not to be a walking contradiction.

I don't demand that people take my feelings into consideration. Say what you will, but be constructive is all I ask.

Can we FINALLY get back to on-topic now?

2 hours ago, Donke60 said:

 well see this update just got released so I think it's a bit early as everyone said to call it useless right out of the "gate" 

 As for Klei knowing what items are superior to others,I'm sure they do  but what you have to realize is this game isn't a competitive game and not everyone is going to have the best starts or the best picks  or even come into the game with  even the thought  that they want to do or be the most efficient or effective and are really looking for a challenge.

I myself play the game to relax so for me having more items brings more options and experimenting which keeps the game fresh even if it's not the best thing. Because frankly I don't care about doing the best. 

Besides this itself could be an experiment on what works in the game world as Kiel seems to be getting more creative with item effects and if things go well they could make more effective bomb like items 

Or this could just be fun item concepts they decided to put into the game.

You might have a bit of a point in napsack, although players find things quickly and so far napsack hasn't seen any reliable usage for anything that would not be possible/as reliable to do via STS, Ice staves or even Pan flutes. And bone armour, people already found some ways to use it as an exploit item, so...

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Lumina    1,532
15 minutes ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

not my problem if you find it rude.

This, for example, is rude. Because when a lot of people find you rude, it's your problem, not them.

 

And about the topic, i feel like there isn't more to say. Differents points of view about the news item were given, and you can't really expect an answer from Klei (at least, with so many people asking politely for something in others topics without answer i would find it disappointing if they answered here)

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Rellimarual    1,903

It's true that the napsack seems not very useful at this point, but it's also true that it hasn't been out long and/or forthcoming changes to the game may make it more desirable. It's too soon to be so categorical.  You seem to be pretty much alone in your evaluation of the bone armor as an exploit. Its true that it makes some challenges in the game easier, because that's what useful things do. How something can be useful while not also making the game easier is not clear.

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The Curator    1,051

Ironic that they release the Bone Helmet and Napsack side by side.

From what has been said, the Bone Helmet basically allows you to negate the primary downside of being insane; by having immunity to the shadow creatures. Which is a fantastic benefit to exploring the Ruins safely. As useful as the Bone Armor is for killing bosses you already could likely kill without it, at least the helmet now gives players a viably good reward for defeating the Fuelweaver.

Napsack is literally an alternate-reality version of something that should already be in the game, projectile bombs. But it literally has comparable effectiveness to any of the other sleep sources in the game, but instead requires players to beat a ridiculous fight to acquire.

Really alienating people from your content by adding in these MLG fights Klei.

 

People talk rubbish about calling something unbalanced too soon, but the Napsack is clearly a quirky average-quality sleep inducer. If you need to test it extensively just to find a single effective use for it, that only proves how low end it is that it only serves one niche function. Meanwhile people repetitiously scream at the topic poster, scrambling to find any desperate way to avoid addressing the fact that Klei made a pointless borderline easter-egg hardmode boss with a trash reward. Again, how about adding some content normal players will actually play Klei.

Napsack is literally a projectile Pan Flute. But the projectile-aspect costs you a fight with something with 99999 health.

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Spaartan    571
1 hour ago, The Curator said:

Ironic that they release the Bone Helmet and Napsack side by side.

From what has been said, the Bone Helmet basically allows you to negate the primary downside of being insane; by having immunity to the shadow creatures. Which is a fantastic benefit to exploring the Ruins safely. As useful as the Bone Armor is for killing bosses you already could likely kill without it, at least the helmet now gives players a viably good reward for defeating the Fuelweaver.

Napsack is literally an alternate-reality version of something that should already be in the game, projectile bombs. But it literally has comparable effectiveness to any of the other sleep sources in the game, but instead requires players to beat a ridiculous fight to acquire.

Really alienating people from your content by adding in these MLG fights Klei.

 

People talk rubbish about calling something unbalanced too soon, but the Napsack is clearly a quirky average-quality sleep inducer. If you need to test it extensively just to find a single effective use for it, that only proves how low end it is that it only serves one niche function. Meanwhile people repetitiously scream at the topic poster, scrambling to find any desperate way to avoid addressing the fact that Klei made a pointless borderline easter-egg hardmode boss with a trash reward. Again, how about adding some content normal players will actually play Klei.

Napsack is literally a projectile Pan Flute. But the projectile-aspect costs you a fight with something with 99999 health.

The update was supposed to include all of the things they were supposed to add in ANR but didn't complete in time, so its not that ironic. Its not exactly alienating, because it is as all other bosses in ANR, optional (which may or may not be good). But then, it is quite strange that they added a water balloon with sleep powder in it from a boss that has that much health. It would be better to have a slingshot sort of thing, with like 10-20 uses instead of packs. But then it does look good on paper, sadly it didn't turn out as expected.

@EuedeAdodooedoe, although it may not look that you are being offensive to anyone, some people think that your post is "agressive" if you know what I mean. In some cases, although very rarely, it could be more viable than other stun weapons, not that it doesn't need a few tweaks.

Anyways, try to start a conversation without upsetting others. You could say: "I think it could use a different recipe or a buff" instead of what you said in your first post:

On 2017-5-19 at 5:26 AM, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

Other items are not taken intro consideration when making them? Balance is completely disregarded?

which can be understood as whining to some, even though your argument is sound.

@Glhrmzz, you gotta give him credit though, he does have a point, even though it is offensive.

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Fork    107

I wish I could quote it, but a similar topic was made before and someone asked why items like One Man Band were more or less useless and not worth the materials used to craft it. A Klei member replied, "not every item is supposed to be useful. Some are just novelties." which I believe the napsack is. There's already so many different sleeping items, and nothing will ever beat pan flute or STS. Not every item is going to make the game easier for you or give you a sense of progression. Toadstool is a novelty, a completely optional boss that drops novelty items. It's okay that napsack is "useless" compared to other items. Toadstool was always about the fight itself and bragging rights, not the loot.

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Lumina    1,532
1 hour ago, Spaartan said:

he does have a point

Not that much. You can see, with The Curator post, that there is already players complaining about the fight agaisnt the boosted Toadstool. In a situation when the fight is optional and the reward not mandatory.

What it will be if the reward is really great ?

 

Even more complains, of players feeling they HAVE to beat a very strong boss to have a powerful reward.

 

So the point is very dependant of the point of view. For example i don't feel the choice klei made that bad. You have a big and difficult fight, but it's totally optional. The reward is totally optional too, not better than existing options, different enough to maybe complete them. So if you don't want to do the fight you can totally avoid it. No need to force you to do it.

And in this context, the fact that the item is "underpowered" is maybe totally normal and voluntary.

 

I'm not saying there is no place for a small boost. I'm saying that putting a really good item as the reward of a very difficult (and not obvious to obtain) boss fight would have make the fight mandatory and then, wouldn't have been a good choice. Here, players have the choice.

 

Also, i consider the napkin as a kind of "opportunity" reward. Meaning, you don't do things to obtain the napkin. You do things because you want to do them and obtain the napkin as a bonus reward. The purpose, for me, is to give something to do with toadstool skin when you already have enough lamp and hat, instead of having skin staying in your chest useless. You have too many of them ? Recycle some in napkin.

 

Also, it's great because instead of feeling like you lose something when you do a decorative item, you really have the choice. With a too good napkin, some people will feel that it's a waste to do a lamp or hat.

 

So, again, i'm not saying napkin couldn't be improved a little. But maybe the balance of the item isn't horrible mistake from klei, unable to know the balance of his game, adding awful and useless items, but a way to make a balanced reward in term of player pleasure, something that will not force players to either : do a fight they don't want to/don't do others toadstool items they could want to do. And that still let the skin being useful even when you have enough lamp and hat for your need.

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Mananu    229

What a lovely day, again a whiny post. This becomes like a tradition on Klei forums. @EuedeAdodooedoe Mate, you should take a long pause from posting these kind of topics over and over. Maybe don't visit the forums for some time, it will help you a lot. You've got several topics about how you complain about the game.  At this point this is getting ridiculous and no one will take you serious anymore. How about taking a long pause from the game itself too ? Okay, Klei is making bad decision about what to add in the game. What about making your own Don't Starve Together ? I'm pretty sure you are able to develop a better game. Sorry if I sound harsh but I don't enjoy reading same whiny posts from the same user almost every week.

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The Curator    1,051
11 hours ago, Fork said:

A Klei member replied, "not every item is supposed to be useful. Some are just novelties." which I believe the napsack is.

What.

That.

What.

Frankly, if that is true; how stupid are they. Novelties add zero to the game except making it look bigger then it is, and believe it or not;

games are all about 

Spoiler

GAMEPLAY

 

Why in the name of christ would they purposely make content useless when they could literally just tweak numbers to make it completely viable. There is so much damned content in this game like the Breezy Vest, Night Light and Cat 'o Three Tails that players will not use 99% of the time because it is just either useless or over-expensive. That is utterly absurd, purposely making dead content so it can be a "novelty". What even. No. Stop everything now.

The claim must be a lie here, as that is a horrible and backwards mentality for any business or producer of any type of content to have.

Purposely making content that does not add onto the product, for the sake of literally nothing.

Kill this thing with fire, whatever it is, before any other developers try it. Modern games are unbalanced enough as it is without developers having it in their head that it is an acceptable decision. The worst pox for an industry, justified and proud mediocrity.

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12 hours ago, Fork said:

I wish I could quote it, but a similar topic was made before and someone asked why items like One Man Band were more or less useless and not worth the materials used to craft it. A Klei member replied, "not every item is supposed to be useful. Some are just novelties." which I believe the napsack is.

Why would they go for this? This doesn't make any sense. Why go through the effort of creating a structure or an item (which napsack seems to have had quite a bit of effort put into it, btw) that none will ever really take use of, because it will just be teporarily taking up a slot in your inventory that will stay there for a bit until you use it for something you didn't even need to use it for. This isn't some real-life physics where creating certain things out of various elements may give you something useful, while making something using neon just makes you something that will look good at the cost of effort. This is a game. And in games, balance matters, because the moment that is thrown out the window, people will start to not use certain things, despite this being a huge amount of content. And it's not fun to find out that something you were first quite intrigued by turning out to be a complete waste of time and effort.

Why bother with something that ultimately just boost up your hard drive data that you will never use? What is the point? More content for the sake of more content? If it's done like a "novelty", it will almost feel like that extra content doesn't even exist. And as for OP items, it will make you into an "MLG-too-pro-4DST-mega-base" type of a player, turning your mindset from the game needing to be a tough, but balanced survival one to a social club and a farming simulator which shows a middle finger to anyone new who joins later on in a server due to certain conditions that the game, and possibly other players, have created.

I can understand decorative stuff. But this isn't decorative. It is an item with a function.

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Donke60    2,537

Yeah I tried looking for the topic or post  where a developer said this  to have said this and couldn't find anything or the topic of the one-man band in general

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Lumina    1,532

Not everything has to be useful as long as it find a niche. Especially since players with differents playstyle could strongly disagree about how they feel about an item. Not useful doesn't mean "useless" either, there is a middle ground between this. And if some items could use a boost, making some items too useful could be worse for the game than better, even if it could seems counter intuitive. Also, please,  calm down a little, there is no reason to be so agressive about a vision of the game design that you don't share.

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