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JohnWatson    1,758
10 hours ago, EsaiXD said:

i have read what you said and im sorry if i cant figure out what the heck you have been trying to  say as you have not directly said at all what his downside was until donke mand some interpretation of what you said i figured it out dont blame me for not trying to read as i just couldnt figure out what the heck you were saying tbh it needed to be more clear in what the hell you were trying to tell me

I was very clear. You just have to read my posts without immediately thinking 'oh i'll just ignore most of it because i'm right anyway'.

Also, I still doubt that you understand what Wilson's downside is, as I said, it's a lost cause trying to explain it to you because you 

10 hours ago, EsaiXD said:

have you ever fought with a beefalo before?  it actually has a slower attack speed than a character on the ground there is no artificial lag at all

When we say 'artificial lag', we were referring to your suggestions. Making the player unresponsive and have slower animations will be frustrating because it feels like lag.

10 hours ago, EsaiXD said:

ive already got what you think wilsons downside is  and i think you are wrong just cause he is a basic character with nothing to note doesn't mean that is his downside thats what makes wilson as he is  just as every other character has their quirks thats what makes him him

Okay, you truly don't understand what we're trying to say. No, you still don't know what Wilson's downside is and you outright refuse to acknowledge it.

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AniMike    285

I think freezing a character in battle because of low sanity is a bad way to go. Wolfgang shouldn't have any disadvantage that can be fatal in battles. He's suppose to be exactly how he's currently played, a tank. Reducing anything involving his speed and damage input would just make him unfun to play as. I think wilson needs perk adjustments more than anyone.

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FloomRide    207

I don't play much Wolfgang myself, but from what I've seen, the thing that makes him very powerful is that despite his sanity "downside", he is actually incredibly efficient at farming nightmare fuel and combating insanity, because he kills nightmare creatures in half the time and can dodge their attacks easier due to his speed increase. This is why I believe JohnWatson's suggestion for a possible nerf would be the most balanced, and also fit in with the character's lore (since he's scared of the dark, he wouldn't hit as hard against literal being of darkness).

On 4/27/2017 at 9:40 PM, JohnWatson said:

More nightmares would be a buff, not a nerf. Though, less sanity gain from killing nightmares seems like a good nerf, but that might make nightmare farming easier. How about if his damage buff didn't apply to nightmares?

 

As stated earlier, nerfing Wolfgang (or any character) by introducing a "randomness" factor would ruin the experience. Klei has done an excellent job so far at making sure that all of the characters feel consistent in their abilities. The only "inconsistent" ability I can think of would be Woodie's curse on the full moon, but even that can be predicted and used to the player's advantage if they are skilled enough.

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CarlZalph    1,543

What if Wolfgang gets less benefit from healing sources while mighty, but gets more benefit while wimpy?

 

 

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Pyr0mrcow    1,239
18 minutes ago, CarlZalph said:

What if Wolfgang gets less benefit from healing sources while mighty, but gets more benefit while wimpy?

This is already the case, albeit indirectly.
20 points of healing is a higher percentage of 200 health than it is of 300 health. When you change forms, you keep your current health percentage, rather than your exact number.

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JohnWatson    1,758
5 hours ago, CarlZalph said:

What if Wolfgang gets less benefit from healing sources while mighty, but gets more benefit while wimpy?

That already happens, and it's not worth doing anyway regardless if the effect is made more pronounced. It takes too long to go to a lower form just to get a little more healing. It takes ~4 minutes to go from Mighty to Normal, then ~21 minutes go Wimpy. That's too much time just to save some healing items, you could have just obtained more healing items and used them while still in Mighty mode.

You could probably get more accurate times with the console command below or by recording a video of Wolfgang going from Mighty to Wimpy, but I'm too lazy to do either.

print( require("easing").linear( <InsertHungerHere> / 300 , 1.5 , 1.5 , 1 ) )

 

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GiddyGuy    7,022
5 minutes ago, JohnWatson said:

It takes too long to go to a lower form just to get a little more healing. It takes ~4 minutes to go from Mighty to Normal, then ~21 minutes go Wimpy. That's too much time just to save some healing items, you could have just obtained more healing items and used them while still in Mighty mode.

You could always use rot to lower your hunger but when I play Wolfgang, I just heal whenever because the effect of more healing just doesn't seem worth the waste of food.

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CarlZalph    1,543

Right, but the idea is to put some nerf on Wolfgang without directly affecting his combat power.

Having even less healing from being mighty would punish people getting hit more than those who are properly dodging.

It makes the face-tank strategy not so pronounced of an option.

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EpicCity    4
On April 27, 2017 at 3:31 AM, JohnWatson said:

 

Ok yeah I agree it was stupid to suggest the RNG freeze thing. Idk how else he would be balanced (which he is balanced I feel) Maybe instead of just making Wolfgang or wicker or Wx weaker, why not buff the characters that are actually underpowered. Give woodie his original werebeaver, give willow fire immunity back. Character balance is hard to do, and I'd personally rather have characters be stronger rather than weaker. Heck, they already reduced how quickly Willow will freeze, so it's a step in the right direction

edit: not sure why there's a blank quote there

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Chaosky    18

So after reading through many of the arguments made throughout this thread. I personally feel that Wolfgang should not really be tweaked in a sense of combat after all he is in fact, a combat character.

 

Why not consider making one of his downsides something non combat related? if we are talking about nerfing him in general at least.

 

How about make his structures more prone to danger as he is a fighter and not so wise in the ways of building? or maybe ante up the cost of his building materials required. I mean it is not very subtle that Wolfgang is not exactly the smartest person in the DST universe.

In other words make Wolfgangs downside building related rather than combat related. (Just a thought)

 

I do feel if changes like this are made then other characters such as wilson and willow for example, need even more changes to make them more interesting rather than bland characters. 

 

I believe people play Wolfgang, Wicker, WX, and all the other said "powerhouses"  largely because they are actually interesting characters to play on top of the fact that they have great perks. They each have play styles that directly change the way you are allowed to play the game. We need more of this for all of the other characters that are currently lackluster.

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JohnWatson    1,758

@Chaosky That's a pretty interesting nerf to Wolfgang, actually. It affects him negatively in a meaningful way and it doesn't cripple his upsides, so he's still interesting to play.

I think that Wolfgang could also craft things that are not very durable. So, if he crafts a weapon, tool, armour, or clothing, it would have -15% durability. So he always ends up with 85% durability.

What I find intruiging about the 'spend a tad bit more materials when crafting' downside is that it indirectly nerfs his speed bonus by forcing him to spend more time gathering a little bit more materials. However, a problem I find with this is that it might mess with experienced players who have memorised many crafting recipes, and we don't want that.

Maybe instead of making recipes cost more, Wolfgang would just have a longer crafting animation (this is possible via a simple number change). It would practically have the same result wherein it indirectly nerfs his speed boost. Even a 25% increase in duration can have huge effects and quite slow him down.

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There was an idea I had a long time ago for Wolfgang:

Rather than his mightiness be tied to his max hunger, he instead can craft the dumbbell seen in his portrait. Using the dumbbell would play an animation, take some durability, and set him to a certain mightiness level at the cost of 'x' amount of hunger. You could continue to use the dumbbell to eventually reach the maximum mightiness, and there would be a timer that slowly decreased it.

Just a little thought that came to me awhile back, it's not necessarily a change I would want and I'm not sure how practical it would be.

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EsaiXD    616
On 5/5/2017 at 10:20 AM, Chaosky said:

So after reading through many of the arguments made throughout this thread. I personally feel that Wolfgang should not really be tweaked in a sense of combat after all he is in fact, a combat character.

im just trying to come up with something that relates more to his lore of being a scardy cat which is why most of the suggestions have been battle related even though he is a combat character.

 

why cant you guys at least deal with a small bit of chance with a combat character you guys always show ways of getting rid of things that make other characters strong.  Give him something that affects that aspect of his character.  how about this he is slower around monsters. and this slow is based on the sanity aura field. he would still have his speed out of battle but it gets lost from negative aura. And bee queen crown will stop this effect.

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EsaiXD    616
On 5/5/2017 at 7:29 PM, JohnWatson said:

Maybe instead of making recipes cost more, Wolfgang would just have a longer crafting animation (this is possible via a simple number change). It would practically have the same result wherein it indirectly nerfs his speed boost. Even a 25% increase in duration can have huge effects and quite slow him down.

would be interesting but would make him a lot more tedious in late game builds, i do see how you guys would dislike randomness. Back in the day abby would come in randomly at dusk and during that time she could even kill wendy accidentally.

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