y3kcjd5 Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 With the new patch we get Heavi-Watt wire for running more power in our grids, but it's still pretty wimpy when you consider running a large system (e.g. a thermo chain). I suggest changing the limit on wires to current, not wattage, and adding a transformer structure to multiply voltage while dividing current (or vice versa depending on orientation). This would allow us to better scale power systems (as well as provide compartmentalization nodes in grids for better evaluation of power loading) and also introduce some "interesting" modes of failure; devices provided insufficient voltage can simply not work, and those provided too high a voltage can blow up! This doesn't have to be a very involved system; devices can remain with just a wattage listing, transformers can be fixed at a 2x or 4x multiplier, and even voltage values can be treated as multiples of a standard value, but I think this would add a lot of depth and some much needed flexibility to power systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hole Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 Yes this! The game currently gives us no way to manage power other than switches. We just have to use heavy for everything or our grids burn out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kruleworld Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 I don't like the overload system as it's currently set up. if i have a heavy load on one wire, it affects all branches of the network of cables. it should be based on what is drawn from the cable instead. For example, if i have one pump on it's own, it's 120w is drawn on that wire, but if i add six other devices, that should affect the wire to the point where they are connected, and not affecting the wire further along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimeo Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 Quote if i add six other devices, that should affect the wire to the point where they are connected, and not affecting the wire further along. Since the game is abstracted, it is unclear whether these circuits are in series or parallel, isn't it? If in series, this wouldn't be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PickPay Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 I understand your frustration with the current system. It's not perfect it could probably be improved but at the risk of sounding dumb any more complexity would require clear explanation imo as I'm sure many are not familiar with electricity physics. So the system should remain intuitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
y3kcjd5 Posted March 20, 2017 Author Share Posted March 20, 2017 Given that this is a game played on a computer (or similar electronic device) I think it not unreasonable to expect players to have at least a basic grasp of the relationship between current, voltage, and power; given this, a one-sentence description of a transformer's behavior should suffice. Even if this is not the case I'm sure that the majority would value the scaling flexibility over the (slightly) steeper learning curve, and if a few appliances get esploded in the process, so be it. This game is already riddled with mechanics that have to be discovered largely through trial and error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unArtist Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 just because you play on something with electricity and hightech, doesnt mean an understandig of it… work some time in IT support and you will doubt any human intelligence at all ^^ when you plan ahead and build individual systems than individual curcuits are not so problematic.. maybe 4kw heavy wire for easier play.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
y3kcjd5 Posted March 20, 2017 Author Share Posted March 20, 2017 I'm unfortunately well acquainted with the dregs of IT support (on both sides), but I trust that those looking to play this game seek some modicum of intellectual challenge; were this game marketing towards said lowest common denominator it would be called Pong. I'm aware that it is possible to accomplish most tasks with separate circuits, but that simply involves a lot of space, resources, and busywork keeping power distributions balanced. The whole point of electrical grids is to centralize control of power for scalability. By this token, simply increasing the wattage of Heavi-Watt wire isn't really a solution; it's not scalable. I guarantee you that people will come right back with complaints that their 15-thermo-24-heater power system is a massive PITA to set up. Keep in mind that the transformer would simply be an option. Those who don't understand or can't be bothered with it can go right on using separate circuits or conserving power. If consistency is an issue, put everything in terms of current. If no transformers are used to change voltage, it will behave exactly the same as wattage does now. For example, have devices listed as 1.2 Amps (100 Volts), 2.4 Amps (100 Volts), 4 Amps (100 Volts) etc. This should make the system both intuitive and familiar (see fine print on any power brick), as well as make explaining the transformer a lot easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpy Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 On 19/03/2017 at 4:30 AM, Kruleworld said: I don't like the overload system as it's currently set up. if i have a heavy load on one wire, it affects all branches of the network of cables. it should be based on what is drawn from the cable instead. For example, if i have one pump on it's own, it's 120w is drawn on that wire, but if i add six other devices, that should affect the wire to the point where they are connected, and not affecting the wire further along. At first i thought it works like that but apparently i was wrong. Since this is how it is in real life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasuha Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 2 hours ago, cpy said: At first i thought it works like that but apparently i was wrong. Since this is how it is in real life For trivial cases, it is obvious. Now prove your skills: Note: from in-game designs point of view this is actually still trivial case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexRou Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 pfft noobs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexRou Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 Soo I came across this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_flow_problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpy Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 9 hours ago, Kasuha said: For trivial cases, it is obvious. Now prove your skills: Note: from in-game designs point of view this is actually still trivial case. Uhh let me grab my calculator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimeo Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 Again, I dispute that that's "how it is in real life." It is like that in real life IF you have them wired in a parallel circuit. If you have the wired in series, however, then the current drain will be uniform across all sections of wire (it might be the case that the specific numbers in game support neither, I'm only going off the MS paint drawings in this thread). One might argue that the dupes would be idiots to do that, but "dupes are idiots" is not exactly a failsafe argument for something not being true, if you've spent much time watching dupes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
y3kcjd5 Posted March 21, 2017 Author Share Posted March 21, 2017 I think we can safely surmise from the way multiple devices can be safely connected/disconnected from the circuit (within power loading limits) that these circuits are parallel, not series. If these were series circuits, for example, you shouldn't be able to add 6 batteries or hamster wheels to a circuit with a fridge without blowing it up, since that would mean that the fridge is suddenly receiving 6x the voltage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kruleworld Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 On 21/03/2017 at 9:17 AM, Kasuha said: For trivial cases, it is obvious. Now prove your skills: Note: from in-game designs point of view this is actually still trivial case. My game looks like that as i thought it might distribute the load, but even the little connectors from the grid to the device was overloading! It's based on total load across the entire circuit. what we probably need is a circuit breaker. overload happens, it trips and must be reset. you could set it between two circuits. if it overloads, one circuit is disconnected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moggles Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 It's been decades since I covered electricity in school and it's rarely cropped up since. I had to search the definition of Joules and Watts when I started playing. I like that this game can be educational in that way. Even now I don't quite understand the -100W requirement on the battery. It's probably something really simple I'm missing. In this example I have 13 batteries and an oxygen maker on one hamster wheel and everything is running fine. Like I say I'm probably just being dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duvinn Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 From my experience playing the game, power is distributed evenly everywhere at once and all at the same time. This does make it easier for people who aren't so well versed in the Electrical world and it does allow us to place anything practically anywhere making it pretty easy to distribute power anywhere in the base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
y3kcjd5 Posted March 25, 2017 Author Share Posted March 25, 2017 The all-as-one evaluation method of wire loading currently used is very simple on smaller scales and computationally very inexpensive, but fails completely and absolutely above the loading limit for the same reason. Realistically, only the relevant paths between power sources and sinks should be loaded: On 2017/3/18 at 11:30 PM, Kruleworld said: I don't like the overload system as it's currently set up. if i have a heavy load on one wire, it affects all branches of the network of cables. it should be based on what is drawn from the cable instead. For example, if i have one pump on it's own, it's 120w is drawn on that wire, but if i add six other devices, that should affect the wire to the point where they are connected, and not affecting the wire further along. but as further discussion demonstrated this can quickly get complicated and/or computationally expensive depending on the circuit. This is partly why I like the idea of transformers (and putting things in terms of current/voltage) a lot. For those in need of more powerful (haha) options the transformer allows transmission of higher powers through a single electrically connected grid, while current behavior is preserved perfectly if they aren't used. Computationally, it's effectively as cheap as the current system, since the transformers just chop the grid up into sub-nets of connected wire that can be evaluated separately the same way they are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_x Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 On 3/19/2017 at 6:30 AM, Kruleworld said: I don't like the overload system as it's currently set up. if i have a heavy load on one wire, it affects all branches of the network of cables. it should be based on what is drawn from the cable instead. For example, if i have one pump on it's own, it's 120w is drawn on that wire, but if i add six other devices, that should affect the wire to the point where they are connected, and not affecting the wire further along. BTW this picture is also wrong 8) Wire pieces to load should be also yellow 8) http://tinyurl.com/kfwsvsl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kruleworld Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 7 hours ago, D_x said: BTW this picture is also wrong 8) Well, maybe, but the game doesn't show amps, so i have no idea if it calculates that. My point was, that at the moment, the game shows "3A" on all wires, rather than stacking the load up for each device. it just assumes max amps across the whole circuit, so you can't use heavy wire for the main line and normal wire for the device connections, as the normal wires will overload. (IRL the wire coming into your house is a lot heavier gauge than the one used to plug in your toaster) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mp0011 Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 I understand it may be hard to code proper node-based, Kirchhoff-law-compatible electricity system. But why then they just added stuff, that require such system to have any sense? They just added a annoying feature, that just have no sense in current game development stage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_x Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 1 hour ago, Kruleworld said: ...the game shows "3A" on all wires... Yes yes, that is the problem. Wiring is oversimplified. And the whole idea of showing things like http://www.falstad.com/circuit/circuitjs.html is that not that hard to do it right. And not so resource taxing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPICE SPICE (Simulation Program with Integrated Circuit Emphasis) is a general-purpose, open source analog electronic circuit simulator. 40 years ago computers was not so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Developous Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 40? More like 20 or so. I'm only 41 and remember a time when those 386 and 486 MHz computers existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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