[Game Update] (Preview Branch)- 210162

[Ecu]

4 minutes ago, jerseyjunior said:

mealwood is renewable but requires micromanagement - plant mealwood, harvest twice, then dig it up and you save the seed.

It is fairly obvious that doing this is exploiting a bug (and I've actually already reported this as a bug).  Since they intentionally changed Mealwood to not give seeds, there is no way that this is an intended mechanic.

4 minutes ago, StormHUN said:

Which again is nonsense. I had a hard enough time with clean water and oxygen, now this too? Klei, please, think this over again...

Honestly, I'm not sure what to say to this.  It sounds like you want the game to be something it is not.  Managing all the various resources and utilizing the mechanics to achieve stability is kind of what the game is.

2 minutes ago, jerseyjunior said:

doing the math for blossoms - it wouldnt work as your contaminated water requirement is too high

If you mean you're turning contaminated water into fertilizer (which I assume is what you mean), it shouldn't be too hard to acquire a large amount of contaminated water given that we have steam vents for infinite water and can use CO2 scrubbers to turn water into contaminated water.  It is just a lot more challenging to manage than plant and forget.

[jerseyjunior]

to keep the blossom going you need WAY too much contaminated water to keep them going indefinitely

[Ecu]

1 minute ago, jerseyjunior said:

to keep the blossom going you need WAY too much contaminated water to keep them going indefinitely

If you're specifically talking converting contaminated water to fertilizer, maybe.  I've not checked into this myself.  However, you can also use outhouses and compost heaps to make fertilizer.  Alternatively, you can allow food to rot to make fertilizer as well.  Each method requires a bit of a different system to function.

[jerseyjunior]

per 5 dupes for one day of food - you would need 24 tiles of contaminated water.  no way you could have enough water for that.

[jerseyjunior]

outhouses consume dirt - which would require the water trick.  and letting food rot defeats the whole purpose of feeding the colony.  honestly, if this mealwood exploit is not intended - i dont see how blossoms can work indefinitely.

[Ecu]

1 minute ago, jerseyjunior said:

per 5 dupes for one day of food - you would need 24 tiles of contaminated water.  no way you could have enough water for that.

Are you intentionally ignoring my alternative suggestions for acquiring fertilizer?

In addition, steam vents produce infinite water in the form of Steam and liquid water.  On top of this, ice biomes are full of water.  There is way more water present in the game then there was prior to this update.  You could definitely acquire a large amount of contaminated water if you needed to.

[Storm Engineer]

4 minutes ago, Ecu said:

Honestly, I'm not sure what to say to this.  It sounds like you want the game to be something it is not.  Managing all the various resources and utilizing the mechanics to achieve stability is kind of what the game is.

There is something called balance. If things are getting overly complicated and hard there will be a point where you can't really do anything such as exploration or building new stuff because just keeping everything working takes away all the time. This is why I stopped playing Don't Starve - after a while I simply couldn't even leave my base because not only I was constantly freezing and running out of food, but dogs came without stop, and dealing with all of those ended up taking up all of the gameplay.

I don't mind complex stuff, actually, I love building complex systems but it's not fun when everything is constantly running out and your Dupes can't even tie their shoelaces without you guiding them through it.

[Storm Engineer]

Contaminated water: SHOWER. They keep showering day and night if you have it.

Also, I believe slime contacting with water contaminates it. But I may be wrong.

But honestly I never built a lavatory, I just used compost and outhouse.

[Storm Engineer]

Actually... do you even need fertilizer with the new aquatic farm? (Haven't unlocked it yet) How do those work, do they consume water? Are they better in any way than the planter?

[Ecu]

Just now, StormHUN said:

There is something called balance. If things are getting overly complicated and hard there will be a point where you can't really do anything such as exploration or building new stuff because just keeping everything working takes away all the time. This is why I stopped playing Don't Starve - after a while I simply couldn't even leave my base because not only I was constantly freezing and running out of food, but dogs came without stop, and dealing with all of those ended up taking up all of the gameplay.

I don't mind complex stuff, actually, I love building complex systems but it's not fun when everything is constantly running out and your Dupes can't even tie their shoelaces without you guiding them through it.

The thing about Don't Starve (and likely ONI if it continues in the direction it is), is that you're expected to lose eventually and start over.  So having things become harder and harder as you expand makes perfect sense.

The changes to Mealwood don't actually hurt a colony much at all early on.  However, they do cause sustainability issues as time goes on, forcing you to move away from Meallice and onto a more sustainable (but harder to maintain) food source.  If you make bars from your Meallice and stick with only a few dupes, you could possibly even sustain yourself until close to cycle 100 with the seeds you can find.

This goes for oxygen, heat, etc. as well.  It is all about how you individually choose to manage your resources.  If you're frugal, don't expand a lot, and keep things efficient...you'll be able to last a long time before resources ever become a problem.  If you want to expand and build lavish bases, then you need to be knowledgeable enough regarding the mechanics to be able to do so.

As I mentioned, the very thing you're complaining about (running out of resources and having to manage everyone individually) is kind of exactly what a colony simulator like this is about.  So if this is something you cannot get past, then maybe it's not for you.  I really don't know what else to say regarding this.

[chestnutcute]

3 minutes ago, StormHUN said:

Actually... do you even need fertilizer with the new aquatic farm? (Haven't unlocked it yet) How do those work, do they consume water? Are they better in any way than the planter?

T^T ... cycle 70 and i need to redesign which will make base not "symmetrical" which ...means restart =/ or ...struggle rip really lul

they work even though there wasnt water ...i think it means the "block" submerged , dont have to be filled like mine , i just had tons of contaminated water...

btw they give fiber...for clothes.. not food =/

Edited March 16, 2017 by chestnutcute

[jerseyjunior]

im not ignoring you Ecu - while you can run for a LONG time making fertilizer from the polluted water from new Ice Biomes - its not a permanent solution. EVENTUALLY, your colony will die from starvation.

StormHUN - its not enough for the fertilizer per dupe.  For the food needs of 5 dupes per day you need 24 tiles of contaminated water to fertilize the blossom plants.  Thats sooo much contaminated water.

my point is - that infinite food is impossible now.  all colonies are doomed.

[chestnutcute]

3 minutes ago, jerseyjunior said:

im not ignoring you Ecu - while you can run for a LONG time making fertilizer from the polluted water from new Ice Biomes - its not a permanent solution. EVENTUALLY, your colony will die from starvation.

StormHUN - its not enough for the fertilizer per dupe.  For the food needs of 5 dupes per day you need 24 tiles of contaminated water to fertilize the blossom plants.  Thats sooo much contaminated water.

my point is - that infinite food is impossible now.  all colonies are doomed.

okay , the point is ...there is an infinite source of water called steam geyser , as long as this op shyt exist you will never run out of water which means more contaminated water , which = to more fertilizer =p

 

the bottleneck will be how many geyser u can find on the map you generated

 

those plants are fruits since...dupes never need to drink any water lul =p

Edited March 16, 2017 by chestnutcute

[jerseyjunior]

so the trick in Oxygen Not Included is Dont Starve.

[Storm Engineer]

4 minutes ago, Ecu said:

So if this is something you cannot get past, then maybe it's not for you.

I started it by saying  balance  and your conclusions that I "can't get past" the game requiring management... You are being pretty toxic.

[jerseyjunior]

i dont think you understand how much contaminated water you actually need.  and after you exhaust the ice biomes you will not be able to make enough contaminated water to feed your dupes.

Edited March 16, 2017 by jerseyjunior

[chestnutcute]

3 minutes ago, jerseyjunior said:

i dont think you understand how much contaminated water you actually need.  and after you exhaust the ice biomes you will not be able to make enough contaminated water to feed your dupes.

if blossom does not work for you then ...the solution which i will never be doing which is to eat dirt+water and frying them maybe LOL ( if u get what i mean since u played the game ) ;P

Edited March 16, 2017 by chestnutcute

[Zervo]

16 minutes ago, jerseyjunior said:

im not ignoring you Ecu - while you can run for a LONG time making fertilizer from the polluted water from new Ice Biomes - its not a permanent solution. EVENTUALLY, your colony will die from starvation.

StormHUN - its not enough for the fertilizer per dupe.  For the food needs of 5 dupes per day you need 24 tiles of contaminated water to fertilize the blossom plants.  Thats sooo much contaminated water.

my point is - that infinite food is impossible now.  all colonies are doomed.

i understand where your point is coming from, but how many cycles do you intend to play now?

or how many cycles do you meant by "doomed" from the lack of contaminated water?

 

this game is on alpha and this update is on preview state.

we are here to find those kind of thing, your point is taken, so chill and stop making as if this game is doom. no offense, lol.

 

and in our current state, even the dev know that we are not at the point where you can have a sustainable base indefinitely.

 

i think playing over 100 or 200-300cycles is already beyond what the dev are looking out for testing.

it's way pass the benchmark of their test. so even if your colony is doom. it's already a success for their "test".

 

mission accomplished for them.

and your mission is helping them to test. so it's accomplished too by you giving them input that our colony are bound to doom because of lacking fertilizer/contaminated water or whatever that we will find along the road of testing.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Zervo

[Ecu]

2 minutes ago, jerseyjunior said:

im not ignoring you Ecu - while you can run for a LONG time making fertilizer from the polluted water from new Ice Biomes - its not a permanent solution. EVENTUALLY, your colony will die from starvation.

StormHUN - its not enough for the fertilizer per dupe.  For the food needs of 5 dupes per day you need 24 tiles of contaminated water to fertilize the blossom plants.  Thats sooo much contaminated water.

my point is - that infinite food is impossible now.  all colonies are doomed.

I believe people have managed to sustain Blossom based colonies prior to this update and this update adds world generated infinite water and another source of fertilizer.  So I fail to believe that sustainability cannot be done under the update.  If contaminated water itself isn't enough, then don't make fertilizer out of it and use outhouses and compost pits instead?

Sure, you then require dirt.  However, you can endlessly make dirt via producing CO2, cleaning it up with a scrubber, and turning the resulting contaminated water into steam.  With endless dirt, you can choose to use it to make fertilizer to feed a Blossom farm, or cook it into Fried Mushbars.  Either way you can sustain yourself.

4 minutes ago, StormHUN said:

I started it by saying  balance  and your conclusions that I "can't get past" the game requiring management... You are being pretty toxic.

I'm sorry if you feel my post was harsh, but the thing is what you see as balanced for you may not be what others want.  The gameplay offered in ONI is definitely complex.  However, this is exactly what it is supposed to be.  The developers talked early on about envisioning being able to manipulate the entire table of elements at some point.  If this isn't complexity that you want out of the game, then perhaps the game is not for you.  What you see as negatives, many of us here see as positives and want more of.

[chestnutcute]

Does anyone knows whether the airlock doors still destroys air whenever it open and closes? I cant figure it out myself... maybe a confirmation , thanks a bunch~

Edited March 16, 2017 by chestnutcute

[Storm Engineer]

1 minute ago, Ecu said:

The developers talked early on about envisioning being able to manipulate the entire table of elements at some point. If this isn't complexity that you want out of the game then perhaps the game is not for you.

1. Again: Balance.
2. Just because something is complex it doesn't mean it could not be automated enough that you don't spend your whole time with doing simple, repeated tasks like ordering dupes to harvest and the like. The more complex it gets the more automation should be possible (see point 1 - balance!). And we are already moving towards it, with the new heater machines and the thermal switch.
3. You keep telling me this game is not for me - how about letting me decided that instead? Thanks.
4. Just because you have a different opinion on where balance should be then I do I don't think you have any base to speak for all players.

 

[jerseyjunior]

7 minutes ago, Ecu said:

However, you can endlessly make dirt via producing CO2, cleaning it up with a scrubber, and turning the resulting contaminated water into steam.  With endless dirt, you can choose to use it to make fertilizer to feed a Blossom farm, or cook it into Fried Mushbars.  Either way you can sustain yourself.

True.  But you cannot produce enough CO2 for this to sustain your colony.  Remember, Im thinking end game here.  Im just following these new changes to their logical end, considering the mealwood exploit is unintended.

[Storm Engineer]

3 minutes ago, jerseyjunior said:

True.  But you cannot produce enough CO2 for this to sustain your colony.  Remember, Im thinking end game here.  Im just following these new changes to their logical end, considering the mealwood exploit is unintended.

Showers create contaminated water from nothing, and in my experience if I build it the dupes shower day and night (maybe that changed). maybe you could even trap a dupe in a small room with nothing but a cot and a shower, and a nearby food storage he can access through a gap.

And need to test if slime does indeed contaminate water on touch or I remembered that wrong.

 

[Ecu]

Just now, StormHUN said:

1. Again: Balance.
2. Just because something is complex it doesn't mean it could not be automated enough that you don't spend your whole time with doing simple, repeated tasks like ordering dupes to harvest and the like. The more complex it gets the more automation should be possible (see point 1 - balance!). And we are already moving towards it, with the new heater machines and the thermal switch.
3. You keep telling me this game is not for me - how about letting me decided that instead? Thanks.
4. Just because you have a different opinion on where balance should be then I do I don't think you have any base to speak for all players.

 

As to number one:  Your sense of balance or mine?  Clearly I find the systems rather well balanced and you do not.  Who's sense of balance matters more in such a discussion?

As to number two:  I don't know why this was brought up, as a lot of the game is automated by your dupes.  I would be more than happy to see harvesting of plants happen automatically and am looking forward to additional tools akin to the thermal switch.

As to number three:  There is a difference between saying you should not play the game and suggesting the game may not be for you.  I merely stated that the very things you are complaining about are intentional features of the game, which many of us enjoy.  If you do not enjoy them, that doesn't make the game balance wrong.  It may just mean the game is not for you.

As to number four:  I don't speak for all players.  However, I can notice trends and while there are a couple people here complaining about the changes to Mealwood, there are around 10-20 of us that have been discussing the changes and how best to use the new mechanics to achieve stability.  Said people love the changes and how they force people to do more than just plant Mealwood and ignore food.

To be completely honest, the system as it was did not provide a reasonable challenge regarding food.  In fact, it nearly allowed people to ignore hunger all together once you got a decent farm setup.  Under the new system, it is a progression where you go from a simple to manage farm into a more complex food source as time goes on.  This allows for a nice learning curve as players explore the various options available to them.  I cannot see how this isn't balanced.

[Storm Engineer]

As I said earlier, my problem is not that meal lice is not a "free food forever" thing anymore, but that it became completely non-renewable, which IMHO is not a good balance. Make it hard to renew, but not impossible.