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AlbertDelRiver

Wigfrid is considered OP? Why..!?

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On 12/18/2016 at 6:58 PM, AlbertDelRiver said:

She carries the ability to create "cheap" armour, however it really isn't cheap considering it takes a non-renewable source being gold, also rocks but with moon rocks you can technically say it's renewable. 

Lol wat? Dis guy doesn't know the game mechanics at all! Meteorites don't drop any gold. Gold is renewable via cave earthquakes and you feeding meat/trinkets to pig king. End of. The helmets have a higher durability than the football ones and can be mass-rpoduced without having a trillibilliquintillion pig houses set up with quintiquadrabagillion spider nests to feed them the monster meat for guaranteed pig skin, one per pig.

On 12/18/2016 at 6:58 PM, AlbertDelRiver said:

She has a 1.25x damage multiplier which to some is alot but to me is barely anything compared to Wolfgang's Mighty 2x. dmg!

 

She has lower sanity and hunger stats than wilson, which begs the question of why people think she is op? She has 50 more max HP than normally, however her lower sanity and hunger forces her to be on the prowl.

Am I the only one here who thinks Wigfrid is balanced? Her vampiric ability is gimmicky if you ask me and she can't eat all type of culinary foods, which is why I never pick her and instead decide to be Wolfgang. 

 

I guess some argue she's a better Wilson in a sense of the 1.25x dmg and is equipped for exploration but she doesn't really excel in battle compared to Wolfgang.

Her armour, as mentioned before is a godsend quite honestly because pig skin can easily be turned into a non-renewable resource by griefers unless you hold onto a bunch and/or have a pig house prebuilt for placement.

On top of that, her x1.25 is a constant, whi9le Wolfgang's x2 is at the maximum and he constantly needs to eat to keep it up and even with a high amount of food it's a bit of a problem, considering he's not like WX who can easily brush off staleness and spoilness.

I would generally say she's good. Yes, Wolfgang has the higher damage output at max, he's supposed to be like that, but she has a lot of little differences that balances her with him quite well. Her carnivory nature can be something you can get used to for the most part. In fact, I've played as her so much, I've started to eat mainly meat foods as other characters when I don't have to, which can sometimes be a bad habit if there are other players as Wigfrids and I eat that one honey ham, while I could have easily eaten that juicy dragon pie instead.

She's by no means a "better Wilson", Wilson is quite an underpowered character to her and some others I would say, but he does have his few perks. Willow though... I probably shouldn't even start this discussion here >.> (pls give fire immunity back to her!1!!1!1)

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mikesdaman    1,056
5 hours ago, KoreanWaffles said:

Ew, you mean you actually go outside and interact with people? that's scary! D:
You lead a difficult life, I feel sorry for you.
I just sit around in the forums begging Klei for Rose Skins.

Are you trying to say that you can talk to people in a way that isn't over forums posts and PM? That's, like, not even real.

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CaptainChaotica    2,157

Oh, you know very well that I meant _Don't Starve_ has no proper "inside", you...you...!  : P

(In real life no, I don't go out as much as a "normal" person is supposed to. The sky death-orb...it burns usss...!)

(no seriously I don't tan at all, I just burn.  Heh.)

...Notorious

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Zeruul    241

I used to like Wigfrid, but now I prefer other characters after I found out that Wigfrid is an absolute "trash-can" in Shipwrecked. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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PanAzej    1,850

Using MOBA logic - Wolfgang is carry, Wigfrid is support.

Wolfgang needs a setup for constant food sources (I consider a ton of Bee Boxes the best setup), and overpowers anyone lategame.

Wigfrid is a good support early-game, but gets outmatched by end/late-game items.

I consider both good in their own aspects. As a Wolfgang player I appreciate Wigfrid's gear. Also, her durable helmets helped me during a lot of boss battles.

x1.25 damage isn't nothing, because of this damage multiplier she basically starts the game with a free, craftable Tentacle Spike.

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HomShaBom    59

Wigfrid is overall the best combat character. Wolfgang has a higher maximum damage output, but he's more high maintenance. He requires more food, more healing, and more sanity restoration.

In combat, to maintain his damage bonus, Wolfgang has to keep his face stuffed with food that he quickly burns through at a higher rate than any other character. He can reach up to 2x damage, but you will never maintain 2x damage for a full fight unless you're wasting calories. As soon as his stomach drops from 300 to 299 his damage bonus is already declining. Wigfrid has no food requirement for her permanent 1.25x damage bonus and she has a normal metabolism.

Most of the things you will be fighting are monsters and Wolfgang loses sanity at a greater rate than any other character near monsters. Wigfrid on the hand gains sanity when she's fighting monsters. She can't eat Taffy, but she never needs to.

Since Wolfgang can kill things faster, he should end up taking less damage. The faster a thing dies, the sooner it stops dealing damage, but Wigfrid has an advantage here as well. Wigfrid inherently takes 25% less damage (which I haven't even seen anyone mention), and she's healed when she kills something. Healing salves and poultices are not necessary for Wigfrid.

Warning: Math below

Spoiler

 

If a mob does 100 damage per hit, a Wigfrid with a Battle Helm will only take 15 damage per hit, and the helmet will take 60 damage per hit (I might be wrong, I'm not sure when Wigfrid's incoming damage reduction gets applied, maybe the helmet will take full damage wigfrid herself will take 75% or the entire hit is reduced by 75% first before applying armor, i'm not quite sure). A Wolfgang with a Football Helmet will take 20 damage per hit, and the helmet will take 80 damage per hit. Wigfrid's Battle Helm will last for 12.5 hits. Wolfgang's Football Helmet will last for 5.625 hits. Even 2 Football Helmets on Wolfgang would not last as long as a single Battle Helm on Wigfrid.

12 hits using 2 Football Helmets on Wolfgang would end with Wolfgang taking 300 damage. That's a dead Wolfgang.

12 hits using a single Battle Helm on Wigfrid would end with Wigfrid taking 180 damage. She's not dead, and when she kills the thing she's healed for 25 health & sanity

 

Wigfrid can go full play throughs without ever requiring healing items, sanity items, or sleeping. Health or Sanity low? No problem, go clear out a spider den. And while you're at it you're collecting meat that be cooked, dried, turned to eggs, turned to gold, farming silk for boomerangs, fishing rods, bird nets, bug nets, insulated clothing, or top hats and spider glands for other puny characters to use

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FTR    279

Well where do we start?

Wigfrid has:

- 25% damage bonus

- 25% damage reduction

- life steal ability

- cheap special helmet

- cheap (good!) special weapon, way better than spear

- free spear and helmet at the start

All of that for drawback of not being able to eat meat which is.. barerly noticeable. There are only two non-meat foods you would want to eat which is Dragonfruit (Honey meals or Pierogis are better tho.) or green mushrooms for sanity.

Gold nonrenewable? Gold is absolutely renewable and I would say it's one of most common resources because of Pig King. 10 minutes of opening tumbleweeds will give you like full stack of gold and if you are desperate you can always trade meats.

Wolfgang has his amazing damage, but it's only really useful for boss. Going mighty for most regular monsters is not really worth it as you waste a lot of food. His hunger is HUGE drawback, you need to eat 1.25x  - 2x as much for entire game which means shorter trips, less flexibility and overall being burden to your team because as I said before, you don't really contribute with anything in exchange, being great boss killer is not enough imo.

I did solo DST wolfgang playthrough and it was fun, but his hunger definately puts a lot more pressure and requires a lot more management to always make sure you can go mighty when needed, otherwise you are no different from Wes.

I often see newbies going full retard on spiders as Wigfrid, no kiting but tanking all of damage (including warrior spiders), and they are fine afterwards. Any other character would be in significant trouble after this (even Woilfgang), but no, not wigfrid. I played wigfrid myself and I really felt godlike, I could fight anything and I felt really invicible. I am experienced player so I am already hard to kill, so if you add Wigfrid opness to that, I just feel like there is nothing that can ever kill me.

 

Wigfrid would be balanced if all her perks would look like that:

- 25% damage bonus

- lifesteal ability althrough weaker than current

- craftable special helmet

- starts with special helmet and regular spear

 

And she would still be a little stronger than most of other characters and more reliable than Wolfgang.

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AlbertDelRiver    251

So uh besides anyone mentioning wigfrid's playstyle and her somewhat op stats? Anyone willing to suggest any changes to her? Arlesienne got me think when he said that Wigfrid needs a real downside... To be honest the 25% passive armour should be removed, maybe it's just me who thinks that way, but it does seem op.

 

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Donke60    2,436

I don't know I remember Kiel when they were designing the characters that they weren't thinking of balance but rather the experince of course DST is different but as long as it is PVP she isn't really hurting anybody its ok imo to be annoyed at characters like wilson making meat effigies everywhere webbers spider farms and some other things

and if you are going to say what about PvP I'm looking at you @Trenix everything would have to be reworked so much that they might as well be separate entities 

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FTR    279
29 minutes ago, Donke60 said:

I don't know I remember Kiel when they were designing the characters that they weren't thinking of balance but rather the experince

 I think the same. When they designed Wigfrid dst obviously didn't exsist yet. But I don't mind lack of balance in dst as long as none of characters is too overpowered, like Wigfrid. At least this is the only character that's clearly too strong, that's why we see so many Wigfrids around.

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Donke60    2,436

You could just take away her healing abilty or make it work on average to strong enemies that way its not spammable as bad

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Trenix    135
1 hour ago, Donke60 said:

I don't know I remember Kiel when they were designing the characters that they weren't thinking of balance but rather the experince of course DST is different but as long as it is PVP she isn't really hurting anybody its ok imo to be annoyed at characters like wilson making meat effigies everywhere webbers spider farms and some other things

and if you are going to say what about PvP I'm looking at you @Trenix everything would have to be reworked so much that they might as well be separate entities 

If they balanced this game off of PvP from the very beginning, then PvE would be more balanced if not, completely the same as it is now. The characters in DST currently aren't fun for coop as it is, even with the current nerfs and balances. These characters belong in a singleplayer game as does this whole game design. Characters need more coop benefits, which they for the most part, lack. Would of been better if we could design our own characters and create our own perks and then see these main characters within the game somehow.

Characters need to be reevaluated in my opinion. They're in a desperate need of attention. To say they're OP or UP really doesn't matter, because they're all completely broken when it comes to balance which is PvE design. Things can be broken and you can get away with it.

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Knislinge    3

I think the two are about equal in terms of strengths and weaknesses, but a Wolfgang can't as easily start wrecking face immediately after entering a game; he still needs gear and enough food to keep him mighty, so it takes a while to get going, during which you have to deal with his drawbacks without any of the good stuff. By comparison, it makes sense that some people would consider Wigfrid's smaller but constant bonuses OP.

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Donke60    2,436
3 hours ago, Trenix said:

If they balanced this game off of PvP from the very beginning, then PvE would be more balanced if not, completely the same as it is now. The characters in DST currently aren't fun for coop as it is, even with the current nerfs and balances. These characters belong in a singleplayer game as does this whole game design. Characters need more coop benefits, which they for the most part, lack. Would of been better if we could design our own characters and create our own perks and then see these main characters within the game somehow.

Characters need to be reevaluated in my opinion. They're in a desperate need of attention. To say they're OP or UP really doesn't matter, because they're all completely broken when it comes to balance which is PvE design. Things can be broken and you can get away with it.

Well you would have a point if DS was orginally designed and DST were orginally designed with PvP in mind but it wasn't so it created this kind of problem that really isn't that big. While I do agree a little with reimagining the characters to better balanced for eachother that isn't the case and I'm find with it not being the point is if you are having fun with your character that is the only thing that matters. You like thinking of DST from a PvP standpoint and that is find but that isn't the focus of the game and never was and it will probably never get the attention you want it to get. And I think you are wrong with every character would be balenced for PvP then PvE but imo your wrong that would mean that it would be increasing harder to play alone or with just a few peolple. PVP and PvE are two seprete systems and should be treated as such unless the game was made to focus on the PVP aspect which don't starve wasn't so I find your agurment weak Trenix 

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Electroely    1,771

I think the only 3 characters that need to change are Willow (y u remove her fire immunity), Woodie (we need the werebeaver tank back) and Maxwell (his shadow duelists are trash). I'm pretty sure every other character is best enjoyed just the way they currently are. If you want a challenge you can go play Wes.

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JohnWatson    1,756
16 hours ago, Electroely said:

I think the only 3 characters that need to change are Willow (y u remove her fire immunity), Woodie (we need the werebeaver tank back) and Maxwell (his shadow duelists are trash). I'm pretty sure every other character is best enjoyed just the way they currently are. If you want a challenge you can go play Wes.

Actually, I believe the characters that would benefit the most from buffs would be Willow and Wilson. Wilson's oh-so-special ability is literally just growing a beard. Willow's abilities aren't really too useful, either, and freezing at low sanity is particularly annoying.

Maxwell is actually an already decent character, it's only the duelists that are trash. If you want a team of five and you want to survive for as long as possible, then you would assemble a team of Wolfgang, WX78, Wickerbottom, Wendy, and Maxwell. Their abilities all make up for their downsides.

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Rellimarual    1,833

I think that other players (in cooperative mode -- PvP just seems like a gimmick for the kind of person who obsessses about whether Spider-Man could beat Batman rather than a version of the actual game -- ARE the challenge. It's really easy to survive in DST on your own. Other players might help you, but they are just as likely to be a drain on resources that contributes little or just a distraction from something important that leads to disaster. 

The challenge of DS is not fighting monsters but juggling a whole array of needs and dangers, foreseen and unforeseen, figuring out what can wait and what can't, finding new and creative ways to solve problems and cope with unexpected threats. Other players are one of those factors, and the most unpredictable of all. They might be amazing additions or they could get you killed. I was really resistant to multiplayer until I realized this.

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Electroely    1,771
21 minutes ago, JohnWatson said:

Wilson's oh-so-special ability is literally just growing a beard.

Wilson is meant to be the character with no downsides for new players to try out the game. Giving him another ability would mean a balancing downside.

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JohnWatson    1,756
16 hours ago, Electroely said:

Wilson is meant to be the character with no downsides for new players to try out the game. Giving him another ability would mean a balancing downside.

His downside is that he's not someone like Wickerbottom. Every other character's upside is your downside, you have to keep that in mind.

Also, I think Wilson should not be the tutorial character for DST. It makes sense in DS because you have to unlock the other characters, but in DST, everyone is already available.

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HomShaBom    59

I see no reason why characters would need to be balanced. Otherwise, how would do you explain the existence of Wes?

Different characters are good in different ways to support different play styles (except Willow, she's trash, even if you're a pyro and just want to see the world burn you can do that with any other character)

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JohnWatson    1,756
1 hour ago, HomShaBom said:

I see no reason why characters wold need to be balanced.

Because lack of balance is objectively terrible game design?

1 hour ago, HomShaBom said:

Otherwise, how would do you explain the existence of Wes?

Wes is designed to be a suboptimal character and he existed years before DST did. He is played solely because he makes the game harder.

1 hour ago, HomShaBom said:

Different characters are good in different ways to support different play styles (except Willow, she's trash, even if you're a pyro and just want to see the world burn you can do that with any other character)

There, this is why characters need to be balanced. If a character is less useful, then why bother playing the character? Notice how Willow and Wes skins cost less than other characters'.

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FTR    279

The lack of balance is not THAT bad in dst because, after all, it's cooperative game. That's why characters like Wes are perfectly fine, if someone wants challenge he can pick this character. If someone is new to Don't Starve, he can either pick Wigfrid of Wendy and have a bit easier game and be more useful to his team.

I view op and underpowered characters as way for players to balance themselves, if they are too good, they can pick Wes and be on pair with bad players that pick Wigfrid.. well, probably still not on pair but definately the gap between them will be smaller.

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HomShaBom    59
24 minutes ago, JohnWatson said:

Because lack of balance is objectively terrible game design?

Wes is designed to be a suboptimal character and he existed years before DST did. He is played solely because he makes the game harder.

There, this is why characters need to be balanced. If a character is less useful, then why bother playing the character? Notice how Willow and Wes skins cost less than other characters'.

No, you're wrong. And then you proved yourself wrong. The fact that you can justify Wes by saying he's designed to make the game harder is all the proof that you need that it is not objectively terrible game design. You just provided an example yourself where lack of balance is not objectively terrible game design.

And in a game where people are working together character balance is even less important because you're able to help eachother out.

The reason Willow needs work is not because "she's bad" it's because she doesn't provide anything. A character can be "bad" if they can provide something that no one else can. Willow's lighter just doesn't cut it. It's an expensive torch with a tiny light radius.

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Electroely    1,771

:/ I don't think DST characters be changed, except for Willow maybe. Everyone I know enjoys the game as-is, even if it's too easy. It's still fun.

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