Rescuing a 3rd agent is usually a bad strategy

[leonseye]

Amusingly, I've started not taking Xu on as my starting agent because it increases the chance I'll get him as a find later. His augment is great but his item is meh.

Basically, the opposite of Shalem.

 

I don't understand this line of thought.  Shalem's generic augment that you can buy in almost any little nanofab is "good" because he can kill armored guards from the start?

 

But Xu's item is "bad" because he can KO armored guards from the start and not have to pay a cleanup fee?

[NightLexxe]

I know it he can be replaced by other agents but if you already have an agent to deal with armored guards why would you give ranged AP to another agent? if you have shalem you don't need to use an augment slot on another agent when you can use something else that is better.

[NightLexxe]

But Xu's item is "bad" because he can KO armored guards from the start and not have to pay a cleanup fee?

 

Xu's shock trap is not a bad item...shock-traps are very useful if you can use them correctly and they can KO VERY heavily armored targets without a problem (they ignore ALL armor)

[leonseye]

I know it he can be replaced by other agents but if you already have an agent to deal with armored guards why would you give ranged AP to another agent? if you have shalem you don't need to use an augment slot on another agent when you can use something else that is better.

 

Because Shalem can NEVER use a unique augment like attacking twice in one turn, disabling mainframe devices, hacking stuff at distance, gaining power when hacking, unlock LV1 doors, gain power on Daemon install, etc.

 

There are only four spots in my agency for people, so I like my agents to actually provide something that I can't just buy at a nanofab, and Shalem literally brings nothing to the table.

 

There are much better ranged attackers in the game than Mr. Generic, why would I want to waste an augment slot on him to be my ranged attacker?

 

Especially now that I can just give his gun to Nika, who is better than Shalem in literally every possible way.

[JimThePea]

More Shalem gripes, funny how many threads seem to end up discussing his merits (or lack thereof), but I'm starting to think Decker is the worst agent to find in a detention center.

I mean extra armour piercing or manual daemon sniffer? Both have their uses, but neither are particularly useful or interesting. Rather have the empty slot.

[HMV]

I don't understand this line of thought.  Shalem's generic augment that you can buy in almost any little nanofab is "good" because he can kill armored guards from the start?

 

But Xu's item is "bad" because he can KO armored guards from the start and not have to pay a cleanup fee?

 

No. Xu's item is "bad" (your term. I used "meh") because KOing guards is a last resort. It's a last resort that I will admit to turning to often, but still it's a last resort. I don't like to dedicate inventory space to a last resort item if I can avoid it, especially one that takes planning. Usually, "Last resort" and "lots of planning" don't go hand in hand.

 

And I never said Shalem was good. I said that Tony was SO good in rescued form that he pales Shalem's (and all other agents') rescued form to the point where he's exactly the opposite: Shalem is the least preferable agent to rescue. Xu is the most.

 

Xu is BETTER to rescue than start with because you also have (presumably) 2 really good agents you chose to start with who are not Xu, and Xu just made your team better. Also, you get to use him in the game but can say "Hey, I didn't start with him. Not my fault the game threw him at me and cuased the game to go into super easy mode."

[Scrimbles]

Whenever I rescue an agent (Like 90% of the time its Shalem...), I can't find a store for the life of me, and when I do they never carry a stun rod.

 

I end up just using the third Agent to sit on / carry around a knocked out guard, and nothing else.

[leonseye]

No. Xu's item is "bad" (your term. I used "meh") because KOing guards is a last resort. It's a last resort that I will admit to turning to often, but still it's a last resort. I don't like to dedicate inventory space to a last resort item if I can avoid it, especially one that takes planning. Usually, "Last resort" and "lots of planning" don't go hand in hand.

 

And I never said Shalem was good. I said that Tony was SO good in rescued form that he pales Shalem's (and all other agents') rescued form to the point where he's exactly the opposite: Shalem is the least preferable agent to rescue. Xu is the most.

 

Xu is BETTER to rescue than start with because you also have (presumably) 2 really good agents you chose to start with who are not Xu, and Xu just made your team better. Also, you get to use him in the game but can say "Hey, I didn't start with him. Not my fault the game threw him at me and cuased the game to go into super easy mode."

 

Fair enough.  I like starting w/ Xu though, because I like to rush money for upgrades / toys.  And you can just sell his shock trap when you have a better means of dealing w/ armored enemies.  : )

 

I generally use Central + Xu from start (because I can't find Central in det centers, and her aug is SO awesome later in Endless).

 

Then I pretty much try for Nika + Internationale to round out.  Lately, though, I take Central + Shalem, take his rifle and kick him out for Xu, Internationale, and Nika.

[ThaumicParrot]

I found a third agent very useful in an experienced campaign. But I also got Banks, whose bonus is mainly her door-unlock ability. I think it's really up to chance, getting a good agent can be very helpful and getting a bad one can weaken your whole team.

[wwarnick]

No. Xu's item is "bad" (your term. I used "meh") because KOing guards is a last resort. It's a last resort that I will admit to turning to often, but still it's a last resort. I don't like to dedicate inventory space to a last resort item if I can avoid it, especially one that takes planning. Usually, "Last resort" and "lots of planning" don't go hand in hand.

 

I understand your point.  However, I think it comes down to personal preference.  I assume that when you say you often turn to KOing guards, that means that you often have no other way out and need to use the last resort.  There are occasions when you are left without a last resort and have to either rewind or lose an agent.  Because of that, I like to give myself another last resort for just those occasions.

 

Specifically, I've more than once been unable to get any armor piercing weapons by the time armored guards came around.  Ideally, you can get around a guard without any confrontation, but sometimes it's near impossible or just too risky.  If I was guaranteed to have an armor-piercing weapon in the late game, then I might not bother, but it's happened too many times (I've also ended up with plenty of armor-piercing weapons a few times, but I can't count on that).

 

It's those times when you have no last resort that everything falls apart and you lose the game.  If you can keep yourself out of those situations, great, but I like to have a safety net just in case.  It has saved me many times over in the past.

 

I would even argue that KOing isn't always a last resort.  For example, I start KOing almost immediately on the final mission, because speed is so important.  The longer you wait, the more likely you are to fail.  Besides, you have more people to pin the guards down in that mission.  Even if you had armor-piercing weapons, you still have to hack the power-armored guards before you can KO them.  Trying to hack them either takes forever or takes a ton of power, so if you can't just sneak by them, then an instant KO with a shock trap is almost always the way to go in my mind.

 

That's ignoring all the other uses of shock traps.  I think it all comes down to playstyles.  While you would prefer to focus on keeping yourself out of those situations, I'd rather make sure I have a way out in case I run into them.

 

With the shock trap and the ability to open safes without hacking them first, Xu is my favorite starting agent.

[NightLexxe]

I feel like all characters are good at different things.

 

For example: 

Decker: He can move more then other characters(you never know when that +1 movement will save your life), he can detect daemons (useful if mask is active or you don't want to take the risk when daemon is unknown), and he has a way to sneak past guards/escape if caught out in the open)

International: She can detect nearby devices and wirelessly hack consoles so she doesn't need to put herself in danger to locate devices when others would need to enter a room/peek.

Shalem: He is best used as a last resort against guards especially if they can't be KO'd by your other agents (due to armor).

Banks: She opens new pathways without wasting an inventory slot and can keep annoying guards down for longer (custom paralyzer)

Dr Xu: His melee emp attack is VERY useful when safes have daemons/when there are lots of drones and he can KO's armored guards but needs to plan for this to work (shock trap)

Nika: She can easily take out 2 guards but she uses power doing so, but she is the best for dealing with many guards in 1 turn.

Sharp: His strength come with being able to have more augments which means more augment combos then other agents who normally have 1-2 combos while he can have many more (around 2-3)

Prism: She makes hacking cheaper due to her +1 pwr per firewall destroyed (max +2 pwr per turn (including enemy's turn)).

Central: Makes installing daemons actually a good thing if low on pwr and starts with 3 anarchy.

Monst3r: Can buy programs/items/augments/everything cheaper which saves lots of money with expensive items and his +3 armor piercing dart can be a lifesaver (but it gives you a daemons every use)

[ebrl]

Well, I just finished an Ironman Expert Plus run after a ton of attempts, and my "luck" changed when I decided for early 3rd and 4th agents above anything else right away. Ended up doing three detention centers because the second gave me a prisoner; but extra agents are by far the best asset you can go for. More and faster scouting, a lot more opportunities to misdirect guards, and you can even afford to assign some agents to pin down a few troublesome guards for as long as you need to while someone else takes care of objectives.

 

Also, the first agent I rescued was Shalem, who was given a hand cannon and all the charge packs I could afford, and was certainly the most valuable agent from that point on. Usually I wait for a god tier item to upgrade my agents around it, but the security dispatches were really underwhelming so I just built around what I had: Shalem's augment plus that hand cannon for three armor penetrating shots per charge pack. Got Anatomy Analysis near the end and just facerolled from there.

 

I mean, all the rescued Shalem hate because his augment is basically one you can find in the field - except you just saved up 650 credits or so? It might be arguably bad luck if you already had decided on a ranged specialist and put a Piercing Scanner on him before finding Shalem, but in my experience you should probably do rescue missions early and decide on upgrades later, after you already know who and what you're working with - and this makes a rescued Shalem rather valuable.

[NightLexxe]

I agree with you. Shalem is good when you don't already have a ranged specialist as he fits that role very well.

[kastor1994]

I feel that one of the big issues that makes shalem a bit of a risk to take on is the difficulty of acquiring a ranged weapon. Hand cannons are thankfully affordable, but anything else rather expensive, have fun trying to get a drilling dart in story mode, power to you if you do it. And in later missions, nanofabs are either a pain to find or even hack because they tend to be out of the way and have a nasty daemon on them. And so what a lot of people will do is hook shalem up with a volt disrupter that they bought early on, and so of course he comes across as lackluster!

So while shalem isn't a bad agent, his playstyle is unorthodox to the point of frustrating.

[leonseye]

It seems like a lot of those who are pro-Shalem are predominately normal mode players, while those who dislike him play Endless more often than not.

 

I can understand his merits in a short game, but in the long term (which I'm more used to playing), there are simply going to be much better options.

 

Things get really rough later on as those days add up, and having a character that I consider to be completely generic is a liability.  Especially when I pretty much have my choice of non- "special" agents just by continuing to run Detention Center missions until I find the agent I want.

[NightLexxe]

Nanofabs are either a pain to find or even hack because they tend to be out of the way and have a nasty daemon on them. 

In my current playthrough i started with central and monst3r with faust and brimstone and got international and decker, wisp, parasite V.2 and oracle. I think im at day 7-9 because i have locked exit doors and start with an arch-daemon. and once i started with "every device gets a daemon". But that was helpful for me due to central. i just hacked everything for the cost of nothing XD.