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Day One Webber

Regarding the new leaderboard, and an apology to the devs.

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Day One Webber    1,233

    Before I delve into this, I just want to apologize to the development team on the behalf of these people. I've not personally used these methods, but I can understand the damage they've caused. Considering The Forge used payed dedicated servers to run, it can't feel good to watch the community run your hard work into the ground and I'm deeply sorry this happened. Now with that out of the way, lets discuss how this happened, and why defending it was wrong.

    This was the results of scripts and macros.

    Without a doubt the Cheating Forge mod had a hand in this, but it was just the tip of the iceberg. Scripts and mods have been floating around since last forge, but they haven't had as much of an impact as they have now. In the last forge, there wasn't really a reason to have a script or mod do the work for you besides achievements. Now? We have a leaderboard. And this changed everything about the community. Had something like this been done a year ago, maybe not even forge related, the community would have been quick to dismiss it as a cheat/hack. People to this day still exhibit elitist views on vanilla Don't Starve over modded gameplay. So, how is this mod viewed today?

    The majority of the community defended it, and I have no doubt it was either because they didn't care or they cared too much about the leaderboard. I've spent a fair amount of time going through these threads and the most common arguments I've heard in favor of these kinds of scripts and mods is:

    -It wouldn't be cheating if everyone just used it, it isn't affecting the casual mans forge.
    -People can manually anim cancel, and Klei would've fixed it if it was a problem. (which they tried to do)
    -Client mods are already allowed, and even so removing mods from the workshop won't help.

    Ultimately, what this boils down to is that you are not the one doing this. It takes no skill to download a script or a mod someone made to be able to rapid fire. You're using an outside resource to help you in a competitive and casual environment, and that's cheating. I for one am a casual man of forge, and I don't appreciate seeing the integrity of the game ruined with a Wigfrid spam hitting the air because they have no idea how to use the cheat they just downloaded. If rapid fire was such an easy and obsolete task, why was there need scripts and mods to do it? I mentioned this before, but if someone had created a client mod that revealed the location of every important detail on the map, would this mod be allowed for speedrunning? Even if the person could already find these on their own, I doubt anyone would be thrilled to see it in a speedrun. Client mods are allowed in the game, yes, but they weren't ever supposed to give you an advantage like this. They were supposed to be helpful little edits or widgets someone made to the game, not a flat-out necessity for competitive play. Damage monitor, speedrunning trackers, decor remover, these things were completely fine as they were. They aided the player, but didn't give them and advantage over everyone else in the game.

    In actual speedrunning communities, these kind of scripts aren't just looked down upon, they are monitored and people are punished for using them. There's a reason why speedruns are separated into human speedruns and TAS (tool-assisted speedruns). A speedrun that falls into the TAS category is just meant to complete something within the fastest theoretical time, not meant to be in practice. It's beyond human capability to play within that level of perfection. This is also a reason why the scripts and mods are a problem. They take away credibility from legitimate players, and devalue the worth of someones natural skill. It doesn't matter if this gives you an advantage to balance skill level out, it wasn't your skill. The Hall of Fames speedrun times are no longer something to be proud of achieving, but just something someone brushes off as a list of illegitimate times. So then what? Just have everyone use it and have a game that just boils down to who can use scripts the most strategically? Why would you even bother with a game like that?

    Scripts and mods have spread out far and wide. Removing them is completely pointless, mods can be changed and private scripts exist. That much I can agree with, but that doesn't make it right. These cheats are a disease on the community, and unfortunately the only way to cure it would be to amputate the limb.

    I honestly can't believe that the community had let this delve so far down that the leaderboards had to be renovated. And even then, cheaters will still exist either on the board or in casual play. The whole reason Klei has these events irregularly is because they pay out of pocket for server hosting. It was hard work that they put out there for the community to enjoy, and we've disrespected them by doing this.

    I am deeply disappointed with the community, and I hope something like this does not happen in the future.

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CrazyMoeMew    83

I have said this before. You can't beat any TAS player since when they have stolen your strategies. 

Our Best Rhino run record without any mod assistance is 10:37. 

You can see even that noob Chinese team with random members of teammates can reach 10:51 by taking advantage of mod assistance. 

What a pity! 

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CrazyMoeMew    83
1 hour ago, Day One Webber said:

I am deeply disappointed with the community, and I hope something like this does not happen in the future.

In my opinion, We shall not blame on Klei too much. We shall find problems on our players' own concept.

The only fault that Klei should be in charge of is that they didn't predict the players' malignant competition. 

The majority of this mod cheating issue came from the players themselves. But not Klei. 

It was Klei brought us a wonderful event with so much exciting contents. Also it was Klei provided all the official servers all over the world to the DST players for free. And when Chinese servers having lag issue, they also spared no effort solving it on the begin of Forge event. 

So I don't think we should be disappointed with the community. 

We find problems, we solve problems.  Easy right? 

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Day One Webber    1,233
1 hour ago, CrazyMoeMew said:

In my opinion, We shall not blame on Klei too much. We shall find problems on our players' own concept.

The only fault that Klei should be in charge of is that they didn't predict the players' malignant competition. 

The majority of this mod cheating issue came from the players themselves. But not Klei. 

It was Klei brought us a wonderful event with so much exciting contents. Also it was Klei provided all the official servers all over the world to the DST players for free. And when Chinese servers having lag issue, they also spared no effort solving it on the begin of Forge event. 

So I don't think we should be disappointed with the community. 

We find problems, we solve problems.  Easy right? 

I wasn't really blaming Klei, more so the players who cheated and defended it. They work hard to create and maintain the content they give us and I respect that. That's why it was really disappointing watching people do this.

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CrazyMoeMew    83
1 minute ago, Day One Webber said:

I wasn't really blaming Klei, more so the players who cheated and defended it. They work hard to create and maintain the content they give us and I respect that. That's why it was really disappointing watching people do this.

Oh I see, Sorry for the misread. 

As for Cheating, I think Klei should cancel the leaderboard in case of player's malignant competitions. 

You can't expect every players having the same height of ideological and political consciousness so that they can abandon using scripts or mods on any DST event. 

So I think, the most efficient way to solve these problems is just not put a leaderboard on it. Why should there be a leaderboard in a casual game?  It dosen't make sense. 

Just like there was some video titled "Fuelweaver speedrun on 23 days", it dosen't make any sense either.

I can take all the DST bosses down with in 30 days all by myself. Then what I have got from that? Nothing! It's not even having little more happiness to me rather than just playing with my friends with a casual mind. 

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Warbucks    1,960

if klei bans use of client mods in dst forge i will return my copy of dst and get a refund

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Bleksmits    130
4 hours ago, CrazyMoeMew said:

Just like there was some video titled "Fuelweaver speedrun on 23 days", it dosen't make any sense either.

He did it first, that makes big sense!

 

4 hours ago, CrazyMoeMew said:

I can take all the DST bosses down with in 30 days all by myself. Then what I have got from that? Nothing! It's not even having little more happiness to me rather than just playing with my friends with a casual mind. 

Ye because y killed them 100 times. Now y know each detail of milk! And 30 days? Y need that long time? maybe y can faster, no?

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Majestix    155
1 hour ago, SuperDavid said:

if klei bans use of client mods in dst forge i will return my copy of dst and get a refund

Right. A game that cannot be scripted is a faulty product. That's some perfect reasoning there.

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CrazyMoeMew    83
Just now, Bleksmits said:

Ye because y killed them 100 times. Now y know each detail of milk! And 30 days? Y need that long time? maybe y can faster, no?

It dosen't the "how long" matters. All I want to say is that different players have different ways to play even with the same game. 

The Speedrun is just a type of playing the Forge. If that's it, Why using mod for assistance is wrong? Just because the leaderboard? 

Without that **** leaderboard Players can still play speedrun. 

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Warbucks    1,960
57 minutes ago, Majestix said:

Right. A game that cannot be scripted is a faulty product. That's some perfect reasoning there.

did you assumed i want to use mod which do forge for me automatically? no i not want that, but client mod like the status announcement and high quality mod if get banned then i will have to be traumatized from such traumatizing mistakes klei would do.

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Miss Maya    278

This sort of thing has happened in every online game I've ever played, so I'm kind of indifferent to it as long as it's not being used to cheese PVP.  Speedhacks, bots, scripts, I've seen all of it many times.  I've seen many attempts at controlling them, but the folks who make such things are very quick to adapt.

In fact, a day or two after the patch I played with a Russian dude who straight up said he was using new scripts.  My wrist probably appreciates the break from clicking as fast as I possibly can, but in terms of gameplay I feel like this fix inconveniences legit players more than those who cheat.

Additionally, I considered the cheating mod to be much like a different flavor of cheat I've encountered in basically every online game ever: the highly accessible type. People find glitches like a bugged spot in a wall where you can fall through it and get to the final boss of an area without doing the rest of the level (I'm thinking of OG Manaya's Core in Tera specifically with that one).  I had maybe like 2 runs out of 50-ish where people actually went through the whole dungeon instead of just skipping to the end before it was patched out.  If you didn't know how to skip or didn't want to skip, you were considered a total scrublord.

Speaking of, yeah, doing a lengthy dungeon 50+ times for a reward that has a low chance of dropping does get a little stale after a while so I'm not surprised that people want to cheese the process.

I can appreciate that Klei is making an attempt but I don't really think there's any good solution, and I don't mind that there's no good solution.  I also fall into the "don't really care about leaderboard" category as I just want to meet fun people and get cute outfits, for what it's worth.

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Day One Webber    1,233
2 hours ago, Miss Maya said:

I also fall into the "don't really care about leaderboard" category as I just want to meet fun people and get cute outfits, for what it's worth.

Sadly the only way I can enjoy forge is with people I already know. Most people on random servers are way, way too toxic. I'm with you on just playing the game and having fun.

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Bleksmits    130

I was one of toxic players, i want to apologize im sorry about being rude in forge, in anger i recommended to uninstall game to many players. So i thinked and decided uninstall game by my self for a while until dota leaves dst.

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CrazyMoeMew    83

Besides the leaderboard cheating issue, the dead game issue is much more serious than you can imagine. 

On forge Chinese servers, 1/3 of the rooms is dead game. Players used scripts or just simple press the space key to hang up the game so that they can get more exp from the time exp bonus by just AFK the game. 

For example, "火女挂机", which means 6 players pick 6 Willow and leave 1 pitpig on wave 1. And they just press the space button so that 6 Willow and their Bernie won't just ever died in the same time. 

Then, they afked for several hours and come back to end the game in order to get tons of exp.

Thus you can see some players' levels are over 200 now. 

And that's the major reason why there are so many players who have a such high level but act as noob as Lv1 players. 

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Skorne    212

You're apologising for something you've never done on behalf of people who have no remorse. Literally why.

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eXiGe    46
1 hour ago, Lium said:

You're apologising for something you've never done on behalf of people who have no remorse. Literally why.

Maybe canadian

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Mr.Mulk    1,113

I don't see anything wrong with manual anim cancelling, it was scripting I didn't like. Manual anim cancelling actually took practice and effort at, so I'm not happy it got patched out (while scripted barely got hurt). After many hours of practice, me and @Fidooop had barely eeked out a leaderboard score on the boarrior and once it had been "fixed" we got screwed because we don't use scripts and now couldn't even compete. 

 

Now that the incentive to script is gone I see no reason to bring back manual anim cancelling, it hurts the regular players we can't do it and the scripters still have their scripts.

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The Ted    1

Animation cancelling takes effort.

Maybe. I wouldn't know.

It's still a dumb tactic that should be patched at once. Imagine heating something faster in real life by getting it out of the microwave and putting it back in for just one second and repeating. Shouldn't work and is stupid as I said before.

 

Leaderboards entries should be modless only.

 

Client mods and scripts shouldn't be stopped as they cannot be stopped.

 

If the first two were reality, everyone would be happy. Except those that cry over not being on the leaderboard through means of cheating.

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Terra M Welch    985

I never cheated in forge, and I agree with the OP.

Seriously where's the fun in cheating in an event like forge? There's no fun in that.

The only mods I really used for forge were silly meme mods like lemme smash, sonic boarillas and darkest forge. While they certainly made my forge experience much sillier, it didn't give me any advantage.

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andluism    6
On 11/28/2018 at 1:27 PM, CrazyMoeMew said:

Just like there was some video titled "Fuelweaver speedrun on 23 days", it dosen't make any sense either.

I can take all the DST bosses down with in 30 days all by myself. Then what I have got from that? Nothing! It's not even having little more happiness to me rather than just playing with my friends with a casual mind. 

The Fuelweaver speedrun by Joeshmo make sense. Why it doesnt make sense for you? He did it without cheating at all. Also when you see the video you learn lots of generic things about playing DST efficiently. He only exploited the fight with Ancient Guardian, which technically alright because legitimately fighting it just prolongs the time, not making it any harder.

You mentioned you can take all DST bosses within 30 days, well that's not possible in a legitimate way. Why? In 30 days no Goose, Bearger, Antlion ever spawn. Heck even Deerclops might not spawn within 30 days. Besides the fastest time to kill Fuelweaver is the one that was done by Joeshmo and during that time you can't kill any other bosses because you are busy preparing to kill Fuelweaver. Unless what you mean was using console, then this comment is totally invalid. Please ignore it.

 

So back to the topic of Forge. I myself have never cheated in Forge. Because as @Terra M Welch said, where is the fun in that? No fun at all. Ever since I learnt about the cheating (either using script or mod) I don't have any respect for anyone in the leaderboards. I don't care whatever the reason for people using cheats in Forge, but you ain't never gonna have my respect (though I'm sure they don't care about being respected). I finished this year Forge at lvl 115. Approaching the end of Forge I mostly play with not so random people lvl 100+ and when there was a person join in using cheats (because they are always too obvious), that person was always being rejected in the next game. The reason was because they always causing a problem or act like know-it-all. The conclusion based on my experience meeting cheaters were they just become dumb. Yes they can rapid fire, but dumb. Other people experiences may vary of course, but this is my conclusion.

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CrazyMoeMew    83
1 hour ago, andluism said:

where is the fun in that?

Speed itself is fun. And I don't think a team without long time cooperating can reach 13:xx on final boss. 

1 hour ago, andluism said:

Why it doesnt make sense for you?

Because DST is a sandbox game. There is not a general sense of Game Over or The End of this game. So Fuelweaver speedrun is a pseudo-proposition due to the sandbox property. I don't deny it that you can learn a lot of tactics on that video. But speedrun is another thing. On some rarely extreme hypothesis, you can solo finish Fuelweaver within 10 days by picking some seed map and take advantage of some exploits without any Admin code. Therefore, in my view, Fuelweaver speedrun is just an attractive title after all which may attract some players who are still on learning phase of this game. 

2 hours ago, andluism said:

You mentioned you can take all DST bosses within 30 days, well that's not possible in a legitimate way. Why? In 30 days no Goose, Bearger, Antlion ever spawn. Heck even Deerclops might not spawn within 30 days.

It's verbalism to understand my words like that. Even a noob Chinese DST player knew that the season bosses is not included in what so called Speedrun. You said 30 days is impossible solo all the bosses. there is a video to proof you were wrong. 

https://www.bilibili.com/video/av23056612 

GOD. This topic is about the Forge.... 

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andluism    6

As you can see I replied to your comment first which mentioned about Fuelweaver, then bring back the topic to Forge. What did I do wrong exactly that you mentioned GOD? I'm so sorry if I'm off topic and if I got your message wrong. Just a pure suggestion perhaps instead of 'ALL' you should write "I can take 'EACH' DST bosses down within 30 days all by myself" to make the statement crystal clear. Pardon me for taking it out of context and being worse than a noob Chinese DST player. My bad :(

 

So I'm pulling this reply back to forge. I don't see any difference with a person who cheat in a real-life exam, get a top score, and being awarded for it with a person who cheat in Forge, get the fastest time, and being in leaderboards for it. Whatever the reasons behind the cheating... nope, I simply can't differentiate between the two. If a student doesn't want to be lesser than the other person that he/she knows are cheating by cheating him/herself, IMO there is something wrong about that student's value. Personally if I cheat in an exam, I definitely will not be proud of that. Not that I have never cheated in an exam before, but I definitely had never flaunt about it. I'm already well pass college, but talking about exam, silly me :)

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Mr.Mulk    1,113
15 hours ago, The Ted said:

Animation cancelling takes effort.

Maybe. I wouldn't know.

It's still a dumb tactic that should be patched at once. Imagine heating something faster in real life by getting it out of the microwave and putting it back in for just one second and repeating. Shouldn't work and is stupid as I said before.

I mean those statements are a little ironic don't you think? You just stated you don't really know much about it and then stake a pretty strong claim about it.

I personally found enjoyment in practicing it to improve my skills and achieve more in the forge. This post surmises my thoughts best:
image.thumb.png.5699a5d00cb68eff67fd94186be063a2.png

So sure it may have been dumb to you, but perhaps consider it meant a lot more to other people in the community. Or at a minimum that the patch didn't do what it was intending and limited normal people while barely touching scripters.

Besides that I agree 100% with everything else you said.

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