Should Klei fix the constant water output temperature... thing?

[mr peeps]

I just want to know other peoples opinion on the matter

[pacovf]

I don't think it "absolutely needs to be fixed", it's not game-breaking or anything. I would much prefer if it was fixed though. Still, the balance of the game would have to shift around to compensate for it. Fingers crossed Klei manages to do so!

[Sasza22]

For the water sieve it`s intuitional that the water should have the same temperature on the output. That`s not the same for all machines. For example the oil refinery is distilling the oil into petroleum and natural gas, meaning it needs to get hot inside the machine so a static output temperature makes sense.

Ultimately it`s a balance decision. I guess the devs might tackle it when they are done with QoL and move to Balance Upgrades.

[pacovf]

1 hour ago, Sasza22 said:

For the water sieve it`s intuitional that the water should have the same temperature on the output. That`s not the same for all machines. For example the oil refinery is distilling the oil into petroleum and natural gas, meaning it needs to get hot inside the machine so a static output temperature makes sense.

Ultimately it`s a balance decision. I guess the devs might tackle it when they are done with QoL and move to Balance Upgrades.

For machines that have to heat the input, you could just have a minimum output temperature, instead of a fixed one.

[SakuraKoi]

More importantly... did anyone else read "Show Vote Options" as "Shove Vole Options"?

Well, in any event, like fixed output temperatures can be both a boon and a bane, so can be dynamic ones exploited. Now that Pwater and clean Water have the same SHC it is but a single instance where thermal energy is not multiplied or divided due to difference of mass and SHC of the materials coming in and out (well, sand&regolith still lose mass&energy regardless~)

[SharraShimada]

If you kill the fixed temp output of the water sieve you would destroy the game for so many players in early stages. Its designed to keep the base at ~40°, which is not pretty, but okay.

If you remove this now, it would be a pain in the a** for so many players to get a "okay" temp for the base. 

And because its just water, thats pretty fine with me. You cant cool down 100° oil with it. (sure you can, but not directly)

[mr peeps]

2 hours ago, SharraShimada said:

If you kill the fixed temp output of the water sieve you would destroy the game for so many players in early stages. Its designed to keep the base at ~40°, which is not pretty, but okay.

If you remove this now, it would be a pain inthe a** for so many players to get a "okay" temp for the base. 

2

I see your point, but shouldn't there be a more... realistic way of doing it? I don't have any ideas, but you know... just something else that makes more sense.

[SharraShimada]

1 hour ago, mr peeps said:

I see your point, but shouldn't there be a more... realistic way of doing it? I don't have any ideas, but you know... just something else that makes more sense.

Sure, but currently there is nothing there. And as long as this is state of the game, we´ll need it that way. The game itselt is far from finished. So, if you, or i, dont come up with a better solution, we just wait for someone making a proposal.

[impyre]

There's no good way of tackling this problem. You have virtually limitless energy being pumped into a confined space (through geysers and oil reservoirs). You *will* overheat eventually unless you have a way of destroying excess thermal energy. And since the law of conservation applies, there's literally no way to do this that makes any sense. I think the steam turbine is a good one, but the problem is that the output temp is much too high for condensation to be easy. Still, it works as a way of destroying thermal energy even though it does cost energy to run it (unless you use door pumps). In any case, I think I agree with leaving it in place for the moment. Constant temp outputs are nice in mid-late game, they make efficiency much easier to attain... but in early game it's almost a necessity. I was still hunting for every wheezewort I could find. (Not that those make any sense irl either lol). I guess we have to choose when to apply "common sense" and "physics" very carefully. They want the game to be intuitive, but challenging and fun. Sometimes that means using physics, and sometimes it means breaking physics.... it's truly an art form.

[Hexicube]

Any fixed temperature outputs I've seen have looked intentional. So far I've noticed:

• Electrolyzer is always 70C, it's an irreversible but useful process so there's no infinite cooling there
• Sieve is always 40C, hard to actually exploit as you have to pollute your water
• Steam Turbine is always 151.85C (425K), but there's a minimum temperature input of 226.85C (500K)

All other outputs are either the same as the input or a modification of the input, with some clamping thrown in so it doesn't want to instantly phase change.

[Dovahkick]

2 minutes ago, Hexicube said:

• Electrolyzer is always 70C, it's an irreversible but useful process so there's no infinite cooling there
• Sieve is always 40C, hard to actually exploit as you have to pollute your water
• Steam Turbine is always 151.85C (425K), but there's a minimum temperature input of 226.85C (500K)

And the metal refinery can go over 4000 °C (everyone knows that bug, seems like).

[Sasza22]

10 hours ago, Hexicube said:

Sieve is always 40C, hard to actually exploit as you have to pollute your water

Not that hard actually. There`s a lot of polluted water on the map and you can easily produce quite a bit of it over time. Not to mention slush geysers and polluted water geysers. When you have the water just run it through radiant pipes in some hot rooms or around an aquatuner setup and you easily got 70^oC+  polluted water that you can sieve back to 40.

Also don`t forget that carbon skimmers also have a fixed 40^oC output. With a petroleum generator you can have one working constantly.

[Coolthulhu]

It can't be "fixed" because it is not a bug. You mean "redesign".

The whole thing is so meaningless nowadays, considering that a steam turbine can sink gorillions of K and doesn't have a limit on intake temperature.

[Hexicube]

1 hour ago, Sasza22 said:

Not that hard actually. There`s a lot of polluted water on the map and you can easily produce quite a bit of it over time. Not to mention slush geysers and polluted water geysers. When you have the water just run it through radiant pipes in some hot rooms or around an aquatuner setup and you easily got 70^oC+  polluted water that you can sieve back to 40.

Also don`t forget that carbon skimmers also have a fixed 40^oC output. With a petroleum generator you can have one working constantly.

Using CO2 in a skimmer is a waste of perfectly useful CO2, and a petroleum generator is grossly inefficient late-game compared to sour gas processing.

Relying on pwater geysers is another matter entirely, as they are already pretty cold.

[Mariilyn]

On 11/24/2018 at 10:47 AM, SharraShimada said:

If you kill the fixed temp output of the water sieve you would destroy the game for so many players in early stages. Its designed to keep the base at ~40°, which is not pretty, but okay.

On the contrary, having no fixed temperature output on the sieve would allow to easily maintain a ~25°C water recycling loop, and would help slow down the gradual heating of the colony during early game.

[impyre]

2 hours ago, Mariilyn said:

On the contrary, having no fixed temperature output on the sieve would allow to easily maintain a ~25°C water recycling loop, and would help slow down the gradual heating of the colony during early game.

@Mariilyn That depends entirely on how you play. A lot of people still use the tepidizer for water reclamation. This gives you two options, filter 25c pwater, then heat 40c water to 85c, then send that to your base (which is a terrible idea) or heat 25c pwater to 85c, then filter that, then send 40c water back to base. It's still not ideal, but it's a lot better... and running it through an ice biome can cool it down a bit without melting everything too quickly. The only time you'd see 40c as being bad is if you use a chlorine-based system (which I still feel is kindof exploity).

[Mariilyn]

On 11/25/2018 at 1:51 PM, impyre said:

snip

There are many other options to cool down hot water. The aquatuner (which is at the same tech level as the tepidizer)/steam turbine combo, plus the wheezeworts, AETN and occasional polluted water geyser. Those are balanced for cooling stuff.

The sieve fixed output temperature was introduced at a time when there were very few effective cooling methods. But if someone wants to recycle polluted water early on, they have to deal with the building suddenly heating 25C water up to 40C degrees, which is a major annoyance and super counterintuitive.

[impyre]

@Mariilyn Lots of arguments can be made about this either way... I still hold that how you feel about constant output temps depends on how you play.

 

[dallion]

for input =  -19C

do output = ice ?!

maybe that`s why klei doesn`t fix it

[Sasza22]

5 hours ago, dallion said:

for input =  -19C

do output = ice ?!

maybe that`s why klei doesn`t fix it

In that case a minimal output temperature would be perfect.

[yoakenashi]

Only 35 votes!? Yoakenashi casts resurrect ...

 

[The Plum Gate]

Bumped from someone who hasn't visited the forum in a while.

[anton_stezhkin]

no!

[Rainbowdesign]

Game is too easy with the exploit needs fixing!

[yoakenashi]

Makes game to easy? The game is as easy as you make it, ever try on hard and accepting very duplicant up to 70 and launch a rocket within 201 cycles?

Unrealistic? The game has creatures that breathe carbon dioxide and poop crude oil!

Difficult for first tile players to understand? How many games did you play before you understood enough not to kill everyone?

In my opinion there is no good reason to fix it and no good reason to leave it as is. The only reason that has made any sense is that that is how the game was created and what Klei intends.

Should you share your charged opinion on the suggestion forum? Absolutely! That’s what it’s here for.