[Game Update] - 288927

[RonEmpire]

Just now, Grimgaw said:

In the latest build there are no shove voles (they don't spawn in newly created world), so maybe wait a bit with your pressing question.

even more reason to press the question to see if they're aware that they're not spawning at all  right?
and while on the topic ask questions related to it.   what their intent/design was for it.  and how its suppose to function.
 

[Saturnus]

3 minutes ago, RonEmpire said:

even more reason to press the question to see if they're aware that they're not spawning at all  right?
and while on the topic ask questions related to it.   what their intent/design was for it.  and how its suppose to function.
 

The intend was pretty basic. They make tiles out of piles. So they consume piles of regolith and convert them into tiles that, even though low mass, will protect against new meteors impacts.

[SakuraKoi]

3 hours ago, PhailRaptor said:

But it won't cost you any Coal in the transition.  You can instead spend the Coal for producing Power, which can go for things other than just the Tepidizer.  Not sure how the math shakes out on that, where the Coal is more effectively spent.

Well, let's just do a little math then~ 

TL;DR I like a little bit of mental exercise (and it's always better to make it traceable) so the conclusion simply is to either use Engie's tune up or drop it into magma (normal magma and volcanic is lower than 1849.9°C which would turn Ceramic into magma as well) 

Now here is what we know:

• 25 kg of Coal or needed to make Ceramic, due to resources lost due mining, the same amount of ceramic needs 50 kg Coal
• 1 kg of Coal is needed for 600W (latter we will do it with 900W boosted)
• Clay becomes Ceramic at 926.9°C (930°C)
• The thermal heat capacity of Clay is 0.92 DTU per g, so 920 DTU per kg
• One wants 200 kg Clay
• Tepidizer needs 960W for +4.064 kDTU
• Clay is normally around 30-40°C warm, let's take 30°C for a 900°C difference until melting and because there will always be excessive heat
• Note: 1000 DTU = 1k DTU, to reduce plenty of ".000" the result is already converted

 and do it step by step because everyone dislikes big formulas (divide&conquer FTW!):

• 200 kg Clay * 900°C difference * 920 DTU = 165.600 kDTU
• 50 kg Coal (* 1kg Coal)* 600W = 30.000W 
• 30.000W / 960W = 31.25 
• 31.25 * 4.064.000 DTU = 127.000. kDTU

127.000 kDTU < 165.600 kDTU => More Coal would need to be spend than in a Kiln

 

Now with Engie's tune up however:

• 50 kg Coal (* 1kg Coal)* 900W = 45.000W 
• 45.000W / 960W = 46,875
• 46.875 * 4.064 kDTU = 190.500 kDTU

190.500 kDTU> 165.600 kDTU => Less Coal would need to be spend than in a Kiln

 

It's however also worth noting that:

• Kiln produces 20 kDTU times [I dunno how long it takes) per 25 kg of Coal, probably more displaced heat than a Coal Generator
• Coal generator produces 9 kDTU per kg of Coal
• Coal Generator produces 20g CO2 per kg of Coal (better than losing everything, unless one does not like waste management)
• each 1°C the clay is already hotter (but sadly it is not that conductive) reduces the DTU needed by 184 kDTU
• for normal Coal Generator and Kiln to be equal Clay needs to be (165.600-127.000=38.000/184=207+30=) 237°C
• for Engie's Coal Generator and Kiln to be equal Clay needs to be (190.500-165.600)=24.900/184=135, 30-135=) -95°C

 

39 minutes ago, RonEmpire said:

According to the ingame  liveable is -200 to 200.   so yea-  they'll eventually die from the heat. 

Disregarding the even hotter rock/iron gas above the thousands which is now CO2, meteors hit for 227°C to 427°C (heat is random and mostly due to the explosion since otherwise it should be 50°C-120°C) ... so indeed, that'll kill 'em, easily.

I think the devs simply calculated without the explosion but alas ultimately the surface is like most biomes isolated/insulated so it will heat up eventually to above that (to near 427°C) and locally it will be hot anyway.

 

[AndreyKl]

6 hours ago, Caochu said:

It tickles me a little that you seem talking of heat deletion as an easy, too easy mechanic

Heat deletion with steam turbine is easy untill everything is cooled at least to 226C (potentially to 151C but that's hard to insulate for). It can drop 10kg 1000C steam to ~226C in 5-10 seconds. It deletes Massive amounts of heat almost instanteneously to the point where it is no longer simply overpowerd, but broken.

Personally I cool hot steam vent with it (and what left I send to wheezeworts), cool magma for igneous rock production and had couple plans to use turbine to cool couple other vents and was previously using one turbine to  cool regolith a bit (but that one was a bit more of energy source then for actual cooling). And when I was setting steam turbines up in these cases I felt it was mostly fine if oversimplified in some respects and oversimplified in others, but with aqutuners of steel it makes turbine+aqutuner pair immediately became the only cooling devices you will ever need => no heat management to talk about.

6 hours ago, Caochu said:

while in the same time other players rely on and defend so much fix temperatures output exploits, like the water sieves or the carbon skimmer or even both in a loop (very easy to put an oil biome at 40°C that way).

Unfortunately it will be even more exploited now - refinery likely outputs at fixed temperature and with steel pump we can now pump much hotter liquid into it. I agree that it needs to be fixed, but there are no low temp early game alternatives at the moment. There are wheetheworts, but those are not immediately avaliable and depend onto luck.

6 hours ago, Caochu said:

So a building effectively removing some heat with a bit of reflexion, I think it is a must-have for the gameplay.

I agree that at least early game one is needed. Also midgame solution along the lines of space-radiators will be good to. But steam turbine is supposed to be a power source not insanely effective cooling device.

[Angpaur]

1 hour ago, SakuraKoi said:

TL;DR I like a little bit of mental exercise (and it's always better to make it traceable) so the conclusion simply is to either use Engie's tune up or drop it into magma (normal magma and volcanic is lower than 1849.9°C which would turn Ceramic into magma as well) 

And what about cooling ceramics created by coocking clay? What will happen if you use hot ceramics to build something? Will the building be 930C hot?

[Saturnus]

5 minutes ago, Angpaur said:

And what about cooling ceramics created by coocking clay? What will happen if you use hot ceramics to build something? Will the building be 930C hot?

No. If you build something out of a hot material the temperature is reset. I think to a maximum of 40C but not 100% sure about the actual maximum temperature it's reset to.

[SakuraKoi]

2 minutes ago, Angpaur said:

And what about cooling ceramics created by coocking clay? What will happen if you use hot ceramics to build something? Will the building be 930C hot?

as far as I saw, that is, when my Smart Batteries overheated in the Vacuum of space and the same iron was used for the new battery, there is a max temperature which buildings will have when built (~45°C for Smart Iron Batteries that overheat at 125°C, I did observe closely since the tile sucked up some of the heat). I am not sure what other temperatures other buildings have... pipes may very well be that hot if the cap is undefined

but ofc, that is also worth considering i.e what to do with the hot clay thereafter

[Technoincubus]

13 hours ago, Ipsquiggle said:

High-end materials can now be used as Raw Metal as well as Refined Metal.

[InternetGuy]

Am not sure about the balance with the aquatuner being able to function in 1,000C but I am absolutely thrilled for it. Now I can use the steam turbines without using the door trick. XD

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

13 minutes ago, InternetGuy said:

Am not sure about the balance with the aquatuner being able to function in 1,000C but I am absolutely thrilled for it. Now I can use the steam turbines without using the door trick. XD

Looks fine on the balance. The materials needed are very difficult to get. Basically by the time you get them you are already very independent from any solution that requires aqua tuners able to run at 1000°C. It's basically a reward at the end of the game: "hey you basically won the game, you concuered every important aspect of the game. Here are some awesome materials to try extreme stuff with. Go have fun with that."

Edited October 11, 2018 by ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy

[Angpaur]

51 minutes ago, SakuraKoi said:

but ofc, that is also worth considering i.e what to do with the hot clay thereafter

So after all it might be better to use kiln.

[SakuraKoi]

11 minutes ago, Angpaur said:

So after all it might be better to use kiln.

Yes and no, I sure do value convenience higher than contraptions. Especially considering that one not only has on average 720kW/cycle anyway with 1 Natural Gas Geyser and 1440kW/Cycle with two (50% chance+[a bit]-[the chance the encounter an awful one]) if not more... but there is also Solar Panels, while they net only ~140kW on a clear day, it is free energy still once set up and they can be many.

The difference between tune up and kiln is also not that vast. If I am not mistaken, Atmosuit scalding also starts at 800°C so at least one should get it to cool by over 100°C.

However, if one is somehow able to make the ceramic drop in debris instead of solidify as tiles, then it is a different story. I do not think that it is possible since I even get sand tiles that weight a little more than a few mg. 

[Saturnus]

28 minutes ago, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

Looks fine on the balance. The materials needed are very difficult to get. 

Steel is difficult to get?

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

Just now, Saturnus said:

Steel is difficult to get?

Is a steel aquatuner able to run 1000°C?

[Saturnus]

Just now, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

Is a steel aquatuner able to run 1000°C?

Is 1000C needed for a steam turbine to run?

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

Just now, Saturnus said:

Is 1000C needed for a steam turbine to run?

That wasn't InternetGuy's remark though:

Quote

Am not sure about the balance with the aquatuner being able to function in 1,000C

Obviously we are potentially looking at extremer things (unspecified at the moment) now then a cute steam turbine/aqua tuner set up .

[Saturnus]

 

1 minute ago, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

That wasn't InternetGuy's remark though

Yes, it actually was.

47 minutes ago, InternetGuy said:

Now I can use the steam turbines without using the door trick. XD

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

2 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

 

Yes, it actually was.

I actually was only interested in the first part. Steam turbines are now very doable in a whole lot number of ways, I don't think we'll be getting our kicks 'n giggles out of that anymore.

Edited October 11, 2018 by ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy

[Saturnus]

1 minute ago, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

I actually was only interested in the first part. Steam turbines are now very doable in a whole lot number of ways.

And I was only interested in what the poster actually intended to use it for. The rest is irrelevant.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Saturnus

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

6 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

And I was only interested in what the poster actually intended to use it for. The rest is irrelevant.

Actually it is relevant. It was the first thing he mentions: is it balanced to have such high temperature solution. That stands loose from "I don't have to use the door trick anymore".

So totally relevant. I don't think it's your place to state if a part of a post from somebody else is relevant or not, mate. You don't see me doing that (and no, me telling I was only interested in the first part does not make the second part in my eyes irrelevant. For me they are 2 separate statements).

Edited October 11, 2018 by ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy

[Saturnus]

Just now, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

That stands loose from "I don't have to use the door trick anymore".

If two separate sentences are used in the same paragraph it means they are connected and cannot be taken apart from the whole. To only consider the first part of the paragraph without the second part is quoting out of context when the second part shows the intent of the first sentence. You have to read it as: "Because I can now run aquatuners to 1000C I can now use steam turbines without the door trick", to which the answer obviously is: "you don't need to get 1000C to do that, temperatures reachable with steel is plenty". 

Anyway, pointless banter about semantics.

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

5 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

If two separate sentences are used in the same paragraph it means they are connected and cannot be taken apart from the whole. To only consider the first part of the paragraph without the second part is quoting out of context when the second part shows the intent of the first sentence. You have to read it as: "Because I can now run aquatuners to 1000C I can now use steam turbines without the door trick", to which the answer obviously is: "you don't need to get 1000C to do that, temperatures reachable with steel is plenty". 

Anyway, pointless banter about semantics.

No, it is being read as:

-I am not sure on the balance of being able to run aquatuners on 1000°C

-It will however let me run the steam turbines without doors.

2 separate statements, one building on the other. I am building on the first statement (obviously), you want me to involve in the second in which I frankly am not interested in. Why is that so hard to understand?

Look no hard feelings mate. Just realize I was not commenting on the steam turbine part at all. I did nothing wrong and... oh God, please don't put me in prison for your perceived violation! I'm too young for this!

Edited October 11, 2018 by ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy

[Saturnus]

2 minutes ago, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

No.

Whatever floats your boat, mate. As I said.

6 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

Anyway, pointless banter about semantics.

 

Edited October 11, 2018 by Saturnus

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

3 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

Whatever floats your boat, mate. As I said.

All good, all good. Sorry if I am a bit pricky; I just did not want get involved with the steam turbine part, my comment was not aimed at that. I was just trying to adress the doubts around balance, mate. Nothing more. Please don't put me in a 2 by 2 cell, mr. Sheriff !

Edited October 11, 2018 by ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy

[InternetGuy]

What's this argument about?