Characters need further Balancing

[QuickSaveTV]

Hello!

It's my first feedback on Klei forums. I'll try to be argumentative and organized.

Although there are 7 characters in the game that we can select from, each feel slightly different and have different things to say, it seems clear to me that some are MUCH stronger than the others. From the gameplay perspective it reduces the number of optimal characters and pushes you to play them. Of course, a stubborn person will still pick something he or she prefers, but it makes no sense why they should be punished for that.

I will go through all the characters and try to give a suggestion on what should be addressed by Klei Entertainment.

Wilson - His beard is one of the abilities that can remain useful throughout the game. He is the only character that will be able to build Meat effigy without exploiting or even dropping down his Sanity

I'm referring to Black Rabbits (Sanity below 40), which also drop the beard hair, which is required to build the Meat Effigy. To Wilson, it is the most accessible 1UP mechanic of all and he would do incredibly well to utilize it.

Willow - She is immune to fire, her fire-starting tendencies can occasionally cause you trouble, but if you're careful it will never happen. Considering that up to half of incoming Hell Hounds are flaming, her immunity will go a long way in helping you through-out the game.

Wendy - I her. By far my favorite character, aesthetically. Her ability (Abigail coming at night) is NOT strong enough, as far as I'm concerned. Not only it can potentially kill you if you happen to be very low on health, but also her aggro logic is frustrating. Wendy is as fragile as anybody else and for the ghost of Abigail to attack anything, this anything must hit Wendy first (Needless to say, it is not very useful during fights with creatures like Spider Queens).

Add to that her inconsistency. Unlike other characters' abilities, her is activated occasionally and only when it feels like it. It makes it difficult to plan ahead, but since it's a chance-based , should it not be stronger or smarter?

Wolfgang - If I had to name one character that is blatantly overpowered, it would be Wolfgang. Realistically, he is the only character that has 3 (!!!) positive abilities. He gets +100HP; +75 Stomach Size; +Additional Hitting Power with any item in hand. He is the only character in the game that can kill a basic creature with 3 hits, instead of 4 with an axe (or any other Craftsman tool). As it stands right now, I believe he should be either nerfed or slightly redesigned, because as it stands today he is the most optimal out of all the characters. Alternative would be to buff other characters across the board, but that may make the game's difficulty a little bit too easy.

WX78 - His ability to eat spoiling food without any penalty is a good help to the player, as you need to eat regularly anyway. However, as it stands today, the spoiling mechanics are not yet refined and the different stages of spoil are not that hindering to the player.. If you are going to fine-tune them, he may become dramatically more useful or incrementally less useful.

Wickerbottom - In my eyes, the weakest character in the game (after Wes). Her ability allows her to access Tier 1 researches without having the Science Machine. IMO when you are committing to build your base, the Alchemy Engine will be built this way or the other soon enough (I don't even start my base without it), so her ability will become obsolete very very quickly. Literally, she WILL NOT have any ability after she gets Alchemy Engine. If I would translate her ability into resource saved it would be 1 Gold Nugget, 4 Logs, 4 Stones. This is not really helpful at all...

You could say that she has access to stuff like Spears, Log Suits and other Tier 1 items really early in the game, but in the grand scheme of things it won't even matter much as you don't need a spear so early in the game to deal with spiders or other creatures, and the hounds won't even come until week 6-8 or so.

Wes - I am not going to discuss him, as I understand his role to provide a lot more challenge to the player.

TLDR: Some characters are OP and some others are UP. I suggest to nerf Wolfgang; buff Wendy and Wickerbottom; reconsider WX78 and leave Wes, Willow and Wilson alone.

Thanks for reading!

Edited February 17, 2013 by QuickSaveTV
Added TLDR

[susieeg]

You have some good points, but I think the different abilities are an alternative to a difficulty setting, which most people have mixed feelings about. Although some may be weak or OP, It's up to the person to choose how they want to play the game, as each character will make the game easier in different ways. Luckily, it does not effect everyone else, but yes, again this thread does have some good points.

[Left2Starve]

I think Wendy is UP, if Abigail appeard every night and could´t hurt you, then it would be perfect.

[Axlim]

I like Wendy a lot too. I think if you wanted to give her a buff without doing anything to Abigail you could give her an "iron mind" things like digging up graves/night do not affect (or barely affect) her sanity.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Axlim

[QuickSaveTV]

I think the different abilities are an alternative to a difficulty setting, which most people have mixed feelings about. Although some may be weak or OP, It's up to the person to choose how they want to play the game, as each character will make the game easier in different ways.

Excellent point, but from what I've been able to digest on the threads from devs is that they would actually like to introduce various settings that would allow players to customize the difficulty in game. In other words, since we will still be able to customize the difficulty, it seems needless to make some characters OP and some others UP (except for Wes, as it seems to be his thing).

I think Wendy is UP, if Abigail appeard every night and could´t hurt you, then it would be perfect.

I agree with you on the topic of her being UP, but imagine if what you've said would be the actual situation! I would not be complaining about Wolfgang, but about Wendy instead!

I like Wendy a lot too. I think if you wanted to give her a buff without doing anything to Abigail you could give her an "iron mind" things like digging up graves/night do not affect (or barely affect) her sanity.

I really like the idea you've proposed. Even her character screen shows that she feels quite comfortable sitting on a tombstone. If she would be able to perform more crazy tasks without losing as much sanity or just have a larger Sanity meter, it would make a lot of sense.

[Henroid]

The thing to keep in mind regarding the balance of the characters' benefits (or drawbacks) is that its not competitive gameplay (well, strictly speaking).

Wilson's benefit of growing a beard allows for safer construction of the meat effigy, but it takes time to grow a beard. The tradeoff, as it stands now, is time + safety vs. immediacy + risk.

Willowe does have an advantage against the red hounds. Her other ability, starting fires in the dark and thus keeping her safe from the grue, is a good safety net from dying in a big-mistake kind of way. But now that sanity is a thing, her temporary exposure to complete darkness, as well as her temporary fires not lasting long or providing much light, make it not THAT great a benefit. Still a benefit.

Wendy is the most lacking, yeah, and it has everything to do with the inconsistency of her sister's appearance. The slow mobility also kinda makes it very unlikely that she has any effect on the enemy, I would argue. The concept of a dead twin sister coming to visit at night is great. How it functions, in every way, needs fixing - not to put it "on par" with other character benefits, but to make it so it actually feels like something is going on.

Wolfgang may have the most benefits, but I think of him as the antithesis of Wes. Instead of a hard mode, it's easy mode. Though, for that very reason I would think he should be the first character unlocked (after Wilson, that is).

WX78's function is similar to Willowe in that it curbs dying or lacking in some way. Or it can allow slack in some survival behavior (that goes for Willowe too). My deal now though is that a robot should have some guard against the sanity thing.

Wickerbottom I can only see being an advantage if you're having a hard time finding gold ore. As soon as you get some, her benefit goes right out the window.

Wes is meant to be the hard mode. No beefs.

[Alvhem]

Wx-78 is prefect as he is, don't change him.he's my favorite, I don't want him to change

[QuickSaveTV]

The thing to keep in mind regarding the balance of the characters' benefits (or drawbacks) is that its not competitive gameplay.

Doesn't mean this game shouldn't be awesome. Having a well-oiled and balanced game is a great way to go, whether it is a MP game or a SP-only game.

Wx-78 is prefect as he is, don't change him.he's my favorite, I don't want him to change

Don't worry, I don't propose anything like that! I'm not saying change the Automaton from what he is, but rather reconsider the amount of benefits he gets. Make it either larger (if the system will continue the way it is) or decrease it (if they adjust the spoiling system). Edited February 18, 2013 by QuickSaveTV

[mtt]

I think for now waiting for new features to be added would adjust the balance on characters. Changing them now will lead them them losing their original perk and design.

With the Insanity Patch could potentially make Wendy a better character to use to combat the nightmare with additional features.

Perhaps a new hunger system could make Wolfgang able to only eat meat thus forcing him to fight instead of farm for food.

And maybe additional tiers of research would improve the earlier capabilities of Wickerbottom over other characters.

[Silvi]

Wilson - STANDARD MODE: as I understand he's the 'canon' and his easy access beard hair is buff enough. Plus he is Wilson. I don't think he needs a buff up.

Willow - NO GRUE NO FIRE MODE: No buff needed - She's great but when you play safe her perk never comes to play. Situational perk, nontheless. Not OP at all, not UP at all. Depends on your playstyle. But when it comes into play it can save your hide.

Wendy - NO AGGRO KILLS MODE: I love Wendy and I like her perk and the aggro-free killing machine Abigail seems OP... In THEORY. In practice it's very hard to get Abigail to do what you want, and while she can kill beefalo on day 1... yeah I think this needs tweaking. Giving the player control over when she spawns at the cost of some resources would be great.

Wolfgang - EASY MODE: No nerf needed - yes he is OP. OP. OP. But he is meant to be EASY MODE. Begging for him to be nerfed would be like begging for Wes to be buffed. I hope it won't happen. He can stay the way he is.

WX78 - NO SPOILAGE MODE: Agreed - WX78 unique and I love this character for the way he is, spoilage still needs tweaking. Build a fridge, eat food that's cooked in croak pot and always start with the most spoiled ones first and you'll never have a problem. As it is, WX78's perk can be rendered 'unused' a bit like with Willow's. And while Willow's perk is fine the way it is (since it's a big buff when in a pinch), WX78's perk doesn't have that appeal.

Wickerbottom - NO RESEARCH MODE: I'm not sure about this one - yes, her perk is nonexistent. Thing is, she's not exactly UP. In fact, in some ways she's OP for the first 3-4 days. This character seems to be made for people who really don't like to repeat researches. I'm on the fence about this one, since I don't mind building a science machine.

Wes - HARD MODE: Agreed - UP for a reason.

All in all: I think the only ones that need some tweaking is Wendy and WX78, and maybe Wickerbottom. The rest seems to serve their purpose (they're not BALANCED in the pure sense of the word - but they serve their designed purpose. Easy mode, hard mode, no grue mode etc.). I leave Wilson out of the equasion because he's canon and his magnificent beard is perk enough.

[Palpetinus]

Spoiler to make it all smaller to prevent another wall of text!

Wilson - STANDARD MODE: as I understand he's the 'canon' and his easy access beard hair is buff enough. Plus he is Wilson. I don't think he needs a buff up.

Willow - NO GRUE NO FIRE MODE: No buff needed - She's great but when you play safe her perk never comes to play. Situational perk, nontheless. Not OP at all, not UP at all. Depends on your playstyle. But when it comes into play it can save your hide.

Wendy - NO AGGRO KILLS MODE: I love Wendy and I like her perk and the aggro-free killing machine Abigail seems OP... In THEORY. In practice it's very hard to get Abigail to do what you want, and while she can kill beefalo on day 1... yeah I think this needs tweaking. Giving the player control over when she spawns at the cost of some resources would be great.

Wolfgang - EASY MODE: No nerf needed - yes he is OP. OP. OP. But he is meant to be EASY MODE. Begging for him to be nerfed would be like begging for Wes to be buffed. I hope it won't happen. He can stay the way he is.

WX78 - NO SPOILAGE MODE: Agreed - WX78 unique and I love this character for the way he is, spoilage still needs tweaking. Build a fridge, eat food that's cooked in croak pot and always start with the most spoiled ones first and you'll never have a problem. As it is, WX78's perk can be rendered 'unused' a bit like with Willow's. And while Willow's perk is fine the way it is (since it's a big buff when in a pinch), WX78's perk doesn't have that appeal.

Wickerbottom - NO RESEARCH MODE: I'm not sure about this one - yes, her perk is nonexistent. Thing is, she's not exactly UP. In fact, in some ways she's OP for the first 3-4 days. This character seems to be made for people who really don't like to repeat researches. I'm on the fence about this one, since I don't mind building a science machine.

Wes - HARD MODE: Agreed - UP for a reason.

All in all: I think the only ones that need some tweaking is Wendy and WX78, and maybe Wickerbottom. The rest seems to serve their purpose (they're not BALANCED in the pure sense of the word - but they serve their designed purpose. Easy mode, hard mode, no grue mode etc.). I leave Wilson out of the equasion because he's canon and his magnificent beard is perk enough.

Well, i think the characters are all pretty unique and useful (except for Wolfgang and Wes, the hard and easy modes). I personally don't think Wickerbottom is UP. You can often save a good day or two collecting resources for the alchemy engine, and when you are travelling and you need a Logsuit but haven't researched it, you can get it quick without having to run back - just as example.

[Silvi]

Spoiler to make it all smaller to prevent another wall of text!Well, i think the characters are all pretty unique and useful (except for Wolfgang and Wes, the hard and easy modes). I personally don't think Wickerbottom is UP. You can often save a good day or two collecting resources for the alchemy engine, and when you are travelling and you need a Logsuit but haven't researched it, you can get it quick without having to run back - just as example.

Ye the charm of Wickerbottom lasts as long as you take to uncover all recipies. I like her more because of her dialogue lines rather than that, though, since researching stuff is kinda easy.

[Palpetinus]

Ye the charm of Wickerbottom lasts as long as you take to uncover all recipies. I like her more because of her dialogue lines rather than that, though, since researching stuff is kinda easy.

Well, usually i play as Wickerbottom, but on serious runs i play as Wilson, for the effigy.

[MycoLogical]

I would like Wickerbottom to have an improvement; aforementioned her ability is useful for about 4 days and to save a couple of pretty easy resources. I believe either she unlocks *everything* or all or some item costs are reduced. It's only fair.Also; why on Earth are her eyes closed?!She is my 2nd fav; I want het to improve

[llikazuchill]

I play as Wes to prove myself that I can live fore more than 1 hundred days. (currently playing him on the 53rd day).

Anyway, my presence here is fatigue cause of a long trip out of town. I agree to all the points except Wolfgang. He's not supposed to be nerfed because he is the mightiest (maybe give him 1 weakness) that's it.

[QuickSaveTV]

All in all: I think the only ones that need some tweaking is Wendy and WX78, and maybe Wickerbottom. The rest seems to serve their purpose (they're not BALANCED in the pure sense of the word - but they serve their designed purpose.

I don't care for the characters to be balanced, we just need them to be on par. It's not that we are going to have a Multiplayer Arena for Don't Starve or something. For me, as for any other player, there are favorites chars they like to play. The characters need to be brought on certain standard just so that no one feels left behind, restricted or just weaker than the rest.I can accept the arguments so far about the Wolfgang, it kind of makes sense. So, say, we leave Wolfgang and Wes out of equation, since they are purposefully easier and harder to play as. Everybody else however needs to be brought on par, so that everybody's favorite can be played without having to sacrifice "being optimal."I cannot help but to have an aftertaste when I'm playing Wendy. I love the character, but I would love Abigail to be further fine-tuned, so that I don't feel a handicap enforced on me for preferring a specific character (or any other alternative suggested, like making her more efficient at or resistant to Insanity). The same goes for WX78 and Wickerbottom, for whomever else prefers them.

[Silvi]

I don't care for the characters to be balanced, we just need them to be on par. It's not that we are going to have a Multiplayer Arena for Don't Starve or something. For me, as for any other player, there are favorites chars they like to play. The characters need to be brought on certain standard just so that no one feels left behind, restricted or just weaker than the rest.

Agreed. Thing is it's kinda hard to say what can be on par with certain abilities. It's hard to say if ability to avoid Grue through lighting fires is on par with being able to eat spoiled food etc. That's why I said they're not balanced - nobody is going to count their perks and turn them into arbitrary numbers, since it doesn't matter. I think what we are looking for is for every character to have a unique feature that is useful to an equal degree. But who is to decide that? I am open to suggestions here to be honest.

[QuickSaveTV]

I think what we are looking for is for every character to have a unique feature that is useful to an equal degree.

You have pretty much summarized the purpose of this feedback post ^_^

But who is to decide that?

The understanding comes naturally as you explore the content of the game and just play a lot. The same way competitive games are balanced. Of course, we don't have the same goal here, we just need a whole bunch of experienced players discussing what they think about the current state of the characters and out of this we will figure something out.

Take a look at this, for example:

With the Insanity Patch could potentially make Wendy a better character to use to combat the nightmare with additional features.

Perhaps a new hunger system could make Wolfgang able to only eat meat thus forcing him to fight instead of farm for food.

And maybe additional tiers of research would improve the earlier capabilities of Wickerbottom over other characters.

Your first post in this thread about characters pretty much summarized YOUR opinion and observations on the topic, as well as your experience as a player. We need more players doing that and it will sure attract attention of the Klei Entertainment.

[Silvi]

*snip* it will sure attract attention of the Klei Entertainment.

I do believe the staff actively reads the forum to some degree, so we can hope for the best.

[Palpetinus]

I do believe the staff actively reads the forum to some degree, so we can hope for the best.

I am pretty sure there will be some guy in the staff who is constantly bored and roams the forums.

[Shiminizubath]

First time here. Let's see if I can do this...

Here goes. Oh, and hi everyone.

I would prefer if their traits, perks and drawbacks would reflect their character more without sacrificing too much game balance.

Wilson

He seem like the scientist type that would do experiments just to see what happens regardless of the consequences (in other words FOR SCIENCE!) so I guess his resurrection device seems appropriate.

Maybe, at ultra rare occasions, an idea will suddenly pop up from his head (signified by a light bulb-on-head animation) that causes one of the locked items to become unlocked therefore making it available for prototyping. Though you better be quick as this lucky gift would soon disappear and the item will become locked again.

Willow

Wish we have direct control over her infinite supply of matches. That way she'll be a true pyromaniac's game character. Maybe limit it to three uses a day or a limited supply of matches per game (like a unique matchbox item that she'll start with) to avoid over exploitation. She may still use her original ability at night without worry of limitations.

Wendy

Does not suffer sanity loss when facing ghosts, horrors and other ethereal entities. Grave digging does not cause sanity loss Abigail doesn't hurt her when she comes into contact. She seem like a ghost magnet so I guess her drawback could be that she's more likely to uncover ghosts along with the treasure.

Wolfgang

Should have a drawback concerning his intelligence (though I'm not saying that he is dumb as a brick, science just doesn't seem to be his thing) since he has spent his time honing his physical prowess, he'll have a hard time dealing with more intellectually intensive tasks. It would manifest in-game as a more costly research system. Perhaps due to his limited knowledge of science making him inefficient in this field so it would take a lot of resources than usual to construct research structures such as the science machine and/or prototyping has a chance of failure (as in losing the resources) since invention mostly requires a more delicate hand than brute force.

WX-78

He should have alternative option of eating charcoal to simulate that he is a machine (steam or heat powered to make a vintage tech feel). Still not as good as cooked food though and requires more effort since that would require you to burn down a small section of forest to fill his hunger meter with only charcoal. Useful in situations where there are no immediate sources of food.

Or if that idea is not preferable, he could be solar powered though that would require him to stay stationary for the rest of the day and even then it would not fill up his hunger meter completely. (Hmmm, this could be a great perk for a plant character. If by chance there's gonna be one that is.)

Drawback should be that since he is a machine, his body cannot regenerate so he would require a bit of mining and use some rocks and flint and make some makeshift patches and replacement platings to repair his damaged chassis. In-game, it would appear that he is eating rocks.

Wickerbottom

Maybe we could finally have another use for the papyrus item. Just like Wilson's beard and Meat Effigy she has her books. Perhaps she would start out with an item unique to her like a book. Just like her original perk, her starting book would enable her to prototype tier 1 items. With enough papyrus, some pig skin for the outer cover, spider webs and sticks for the binding, a feather for writing, some berries for improvised ink (disregard the IRL logic for this one) and if you have prototyped enough tier 1 items, she would be able to craft another, more advanced, book that unlocks the tier 2 items. It would simulate that she has done research and has written everything she has learned into the book so she would be able to further advance her "survival study". It would be like she is carrying a portable science machine and alchemy engine with her.

Wes

He's a mime. Sometimes he makes pretend walls or boxes so maybe with a bit of luck and some "wtf-just-happened?" moment, he'll block damage when he is doing it but since it's an idle animation (therefore it's utterly random and unpredictable when it will happen), you can't command him to do that action to exploit it. This will just be a tiny spark of luck for this unlucky dude, just for laughs and giggles.

[Silvi]

i am pretty sure there will be some guy in the staff who is constantly bored and roams the forums.

why does that sound familiar

[Palpetinus]

why does that sound familiar

I have no idea

[QuickSaveTV]

First time here. Let's see if I can do this...Here goes. Oh, and hi everyone. I would prefer if their traits, perks and drawbacks would reflect their character more without sacrificing too much game balance.

Welcome to the forums!Thanks for sharing your ideas with us!

[TheCactusThief]

Wolfgang may have the most benefits, but I think of him as the antithesis of Wes. Instead of a hard mode, it's easy mode. Though, for that very reason I would think he should be the first character unlocked (after Wilson, that is).

I don't think having Wolfgang unlocked first would be a good idea, you could just use him and simply unlock all the other characters.