[Game Update] - 284053

[Seeker89]

 

15 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

Yay new element. I wonder if it gets a use (probably will). Then it needs an alternative source (be minable or a byproduct of a process). I can imagine people mass cooling sour gas for sulfur but an easier achieved source would be needed for new players if sulfur gets needed in some recipies.

Also sulfur + refined carbon + fertilizer and we got a pretty cool mining device.

sulfur has a lot stuff that it can be made into, fertilizer and battery are just off the top.... I google it yesterday

[KittenIsAGeek]

16 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

Also sulfur + refined carbon + fertilizer and we got a pretty cool mining device.

Heheh.  Boom.

[suicide commando]

1 minute ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Heheh.  Boom.

I guess we're going to get that explosion upgrade soon..

 

[The Flying Fox]

26 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

Certainly a reason to get the old LOx plans out again and dusted of.

For sure! 

 

I've also thought out the math a bit more and it doesn't appear to be as much thermal destruction as I might have originally thought.  The Sour Gas is produced around, eh, I'll round to make it easier to follow:

 

550C or 825K and then need to be dropped to around -173C or 100K for a difference of 725K.  725K x 0.242 = 175.45 DTU or Joules. 

Lets say we then use our new natural gas/liquid methane to cool stuff and get it to around 27C or 300K for a 200K difference.  200K x 2.191 = 438.2

438.2 - 175.45 = 262.75 DTUs or Joules of cooling/destroyed heat.  Times, oh, maybe a throughput of 500G/s of natural gas... = 131375 DTUs or Joules of cooling.  Not that much more then a single AETN itself.  And, thinking about it, the AETN can get down to 100K so it would only be marginally amplifying it's own destructive heating.

 

Edit:  Oh wait, I forgot, we don't get the whole amount of Sour Gas to Natural Gas, so that certainly throws a monkey wrench into this as the Sulfur has a higher SHC then the Sour Gas.  Hmmmmmmm...  Maybe I can use the cold sulfur to cool aqua-tuners in oil baths.  Liquid sulfur stacks on top of oil so, once it liquefies at 115C, I can maybe have it just run off somehow...   

Edited August 31, 2018 by The Flying Fox

[Pyrrus]

Looks like cooking regolith will provide plenty of energy for the process. Some quick math:

Spoiler

 

Temp is in C, Energy is in J/g so everything is a 1:1 ratio mass wise. The distilling process of the Sour gas afterwards is pretty straightforward so I didn't include it.
 

 

Summary, at a 1:1 of cooked regolith to cooked crude oil, you'll still have plenty of heat left in the ingenious rock to dump elsewhere such as the cold natural gas or steam turbines. 

@The Flying Fox I see we had the same idea again 

- 4019,8g Methane (Natural gaz in a liquid state)

- 1980g sulfur in a solid state.

So 5999,8g of total mass and a loss of 0,2g.

Huh, so cooking crude oil  to natural gas is only 16.66% better than just cooking to petroleum if all one is looking at is the water output... Until we get a use for sulfur anyway..

Edited August 31, 2018 by Pyrrus

[Argelle]

6 hours ago, R9MX4 said:

Hope for a thoroughly gas molar mass and liquid density fix

@R9MX4 Would you have Sour Gas molar mass as of this patch, please?

Also, Phosphorus Gas is no typo (123) and will float between copper and tungsten gasses?

7 hours ago, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

(Sour Gas)

If the molar mass is lower, it means it is a lighter gas. It is above natural gas, not below it.

The patch note state the opposite, hence my question on molar mass. My bet is between 16 (natural gas) and 18 (steam).

8 hours ago, Cheerio said:

Adjusted molar mass (density) of sour gas to sink below natural gas.

 

[FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX]

36 minutes ago, Argelle said:

Would you have Sour Gas molar mass as of this patch, please

If I have time, I will update the material handbook after the live version is OK. Please wait one more week.

39 minutes ago, Argelle said:

Phosphorus Gas is no typo (123)

These numbers in two tables are not the numbers in game, but the number in real world.

123 is not a typo. Phosphorus has many different form. In many cases, it exists as P₄.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorus

Quote

From the perspective of applications and chemical literature, the most important form of elemental phosphorus is white phosphorus, often abbreviated as WP. It is a soft and waxy solid which consists of tetrahedral P₄ molecules, in which each atom is bound to the other three atoms by a single bond. This P₄ tetrahedron is also present in liquid and gaseous phosphorus up to the temperature of 800 °C (1,470 °F) when it starts decomposing to P₂ molecules.^[8] White phosphorus exists in two crystalline forms: α (alpha) and β (beta). At room temperature, the α-form is stable, which is more common and it has cubic crystal structure and at 195.2 K (−78.0 °C), it transforms into β-form, which has hexagonal crystal structure. These forms differ in terms of the relative orientations of the constituent P₄ tetrahedra.^[9][10]

 

[Carnis]

6 hours ago, Pyrrus said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Temp is in C, Energy is in J/g so everything is a 1:1 ratio mass wise. The distilling process of the Sour gas afterwards is pretty straightforward so I didn't include it.
 

 

 

@The Flying Fox

Huh, so cooking crude oil  to natural gas is only 16.66% better than just cooking to petroleum if all one is looking at is the water output... Until we get a use for sulfur anyway..

And 33% worse when compared to co2/slicksters, and 90% less heat efficient.

I cant think of a way to Make boiling viable at these conversion rates.

Low shc: a single AETN can likely make massive amounts of cooled methane.

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

1 hour ago, Carnis said:

And 33% worse when compared to co2/slicksters, and 90% less heat efficient.

I cant think of a way to Make boiling viable at these conversion rates.

Low shc: a single AETN can likely make massive amounts of cooled methane.

You are forgetting the energy value. 40% natural gas has a whole lot more energy than 50% petroleum when converting from oil. While Slicksters are indeed more efficient, you just cannot get the same mass output.

Edited September 1, 2018 by ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy

[Carnis]

2.5kg/s co2, 3.75kg/s water from petroleum @10kg/s

1.675kg/s co2, 5kg/s water from sourgas @10kg/s.

2.5kg/s co2, 7.5kg water from natural gas @10kg/s.

 

..

 

Sourgas is worse then petroleum from My point of view.

 

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

25 minutes ago, Carnis said:

2.5kg/s co2, 3.75kg/s water from petroleum @10kg/s

1.675kg/s co2, 5kg/s water from sourgas @10kg/s.

2.5kg/s co2, 7.5kg water from natural gas @10kg/s.

 

..

 

Sourgas is worse then petroleum from My point of view.

 

I do not disagree on the water. I disagree on the power you get out of it. 10kg of oil will still net you a whole lot more power when converted to natural gas (down the line). If you need more water, this not something for you. If you don't need the extra water and need additional power, then this is something for you.

[wachunga]

10kg/s crude -> petroleum gets you 10kW power. Requires 300-400kW of heat to convert.

10kg/s crude -> SG -> NG gets you 59.5kW power. Requires 6.5-7MW of heat to convert. You could also make use of the really cold NG somewhere first.

It all comes down to what you want. Crude -> petroleum is a simpler build, but if you're already capable of that, crude -> SG -> NG isn't a big deal either. Maybe a more challenging build is a plus for you.

Edited September 1, 2018 by wachunga

[Carnis]

43 minutes ago, wachunga said:

10kg/s crude -> petroleum gets you 10kW power. Requires 300-400kW of heat to convert.

10kg/s crude -> SG -> NG gets you 59.5kW power. Requires 6.5-7MW of heat to convert. You could also make use of the really cold NG somewhere first.

but if you're already capable of that, crude -> SG -> NG isn't a big dealer.

6,85 megawatts per 10kg sourgas.

Average major volcano outputs 1kg/s 1725C magma. If using this magma to 125C, you get out 1.6 megawatts.

So...

For a 10kg/s sourgas build you need 5 volcanos.

For a 10kg/s petroleum build you need 0.5 volcanos (on my prototype the petrol cane out at 130-133C so se used 780kW).

*

I declare sourgas a dead end, like Steam turbine.

[wachunga]

Well nobody actually needs 60kW of power. Converting .5-1kg/s is more realistic, I just used 10kg/s for an easier comparison. A volcano or even minor volcano is sufficient. One could also play games with the regolith -> igneous thing as Pyrrus stated. Or use a metal refinery to generate the heat. I mean the SHC of SG is obviously wonky, but it's not an undoable thing. Certainly waaaaay more functional than the turbine. Which requires a minimum of 3.134MW of heat to produce 2kW of power.

Edited September 1, 2018 by wachunga

[Carnis]

25 minutes ago, wachunga said:

I just used 10kg/s for an easier comparison.

One could also play games with the regolith -> igneous thing as Pyrrus stated.

I used to build 10kg/s boilers for water. So it was never about Power.

Regolith/magma could boost a volcano, this is viable. But unsure If even pyrrus can improve a volcano output to 8MW.

*

Relatively speaking sourgas is a bigger heatsink (More than 80% heat energy destroying) than polluted water was. This makes heat exchangers almost useless.

*

It opens up natural gas mining though. You can mine the Underworld magma, turn it into oilcooled sourgas -> natgas & move your dupes under the asteroid.

[FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX]

13 hours ago, SamLogan said:

Quick test :

I've refrigerated 6000g of Sour gas to his condensation point (-161,5°C) and obtain this :

Results :

- 4019,8g Methane (Natural gaz in a liquid state) - 66,99%

- 1980g sulfur in a solid state - 33%

So 5999,8g of total mass and a loss of 0,2g - 0,0033%

Both 638.1g and 638.199g show as 638.1g in game. Your test can't prove anything.

[SkunkMaster]

One could always boil of the sulfur into space, if there is no current need for it, and gain even more cooling.

 

I wonder what weight sulfur has in liquid form compared to other liquids.

 

Or you could put the aquatuner directly into a sulfur bath and just drop sulfur into the bath. Overflow evaporates into vacuum. 

 

Egg-dropper "re-purposed" for sulfur.

 

 

Edited September 1, 2018 by SkunkMaster

[TLW]

What's the melting / evap points for sulfur?

[_Q_]

I bet its less than temperature to melt reed fiber and mushrooms:P

[The Flying Fox]

3 hours ago, TLW said:

What's the melting / evap points for sulfur?

115C to melt Sulfur and 337C to evaporate it.

 

I also just realized this also lets you take excess plastic/naphtha and convert it to sour gas in a rather simple way.  It seems like naphtha's SHC has been increased to 2.191 at some point.  (At least, I recall in the past that it was much lower)  So, it'll use more heat then oil/petro, but could be useful for people that ranch glossy deckos.  The mass loss of using plastic from the polymer press isn't.. terrible, but not insignificant either.

Edited September 1, 2018 by The Flying Fox
Typos

[wachunga]

5 hours ago, SkunkMaster said:

I wonder what weight sulfur has in liquid form compared to other liquids.

Polluted Water

Liquid Phosphorus

Liquid Sulfur

Petroleum

Naphtha

Crude Oil

 

Liquid sulfur fits 740kg per tile. Heat capacity of 0.7 and conductivity of 0.2 across all phases. You can't currently pick it up with a dupe or sweeper.

Edited September 1, 2018 by wachunga

[TLW]

1 hour ago, The Flying Fox said:

115C to melt Sulfur and 337C to evaporate it.

So if you want even more cooling power (bearing in mind that it's a lot easier to heat than cool), just use another aquatuner in molten sulfur, then vent the hot molten sulfur into space. Anyone want to chug the numbers on this?

Power + cooling in one, without dupe labor, but with fair bit of build complexity. Sounds great. Also somewhat !!dwarf!!-y, which unfortunately means that Klei is likely to nerfbat it. I'll see if it's still there for the "official" release of the Rocketry update.

I really wish that the frozen maps actually had access to the now-"essential" content... They are fun to play at the start (entirely different sets of issues... keeping warm instead of cold, etc.), but are terrible once you realize that a large chunk of the tech tree is unattainable.

[clickrush]

15 minutes ago, TLW said:

I really wish that the frozen maps actually had access to the now-"essential" content... They are fun to play at the start (entirely different sets of issues... keeping warm instead of cold, etc.), but are terrible once you realize that a large chunk of the tech tree is unattainable.

I agree with this. The helicona map was my favorite for a while because the huge starting biome makes the early game super fast since it lets you expand very quickly. If it had a space biome it would be theoretically possible to gather every essential ressource/critter I assume.

[SkunkMaster]

14 hours ago, wachunga said:

Polluted Water

Liquid Phosphorus

Liquid Sulfur

Petroleum

Naphtha

Crude Oil

 

Liquid sulfur fits 740kg per tile. Heat capacity of 0.7 and conductivity of 0.2 across all phases. You can't currently pick it up with a dupe or sweeper.

So you could submerge a aquatuner in petrol, drop sulfur in the petrol, and once it goes liquid it will rise to the surface and reach vacuum tiles. 

 

Maybe? 

 

Liquids moving about in other liquids is still a so-so endeavor.

[Carnis]

@Cheerio are you happy with how the oil cracking / sour gas balance is now, is the specific heat capacity going to stay at this extremely low value or some slightly higher number?

I'm interested because in a gaming sense even cracking oil to sour gas beats petroleum for water, but with current values it is rather unfeasible even with extreme engineering.

I have to decide (& a fair bit of other people) between dismantling a cosmic update volcano-oil boiler for a petroleum one, versus keeping it and not using it for a while + removing coolant.