Regolith big problem

[JonnyMonroe]

On 8/26/2018 at 4:55 AM, tzionut said:

What is the quantity of the no go zone for the regolith to be deleted? It wort a try..

2 tiles between the highest point you can build and the point at which regolith deletes. If you block the highest possible row, regolith will stop building up beyond 2 tiles.

But then you can't use sunlight or get free iron.

[Saturnus]

59 minutes ago, psusi said:

How do you get an auto sweeper to drop things on the floor?

Here's a typical example of a cyclic auto-dropper.

Bottom loader is P1, receptacle P2, and top loader P3.

Top buffer is 3s and bottom buffer is 1s. Connect to sweeper and loader where the two buffers meet.

Note that loaders must have a rail attached but it doesn't need to lead anywhere.

[JonnyMonroe]

On 8/27/2018 at 5:43 AM, QuQuasar said:

Idea for making polluted water: 

Lock Stinky in a small room with a sink and a pile of polluted dirt from the outhouse.Stinky puts polluted dirt in storage compactor, gets food poisoning germs, then washes hands in sink.Autosweeper takes polluted dirt out of the storage compactor and drops it on floor. Repeat.
 

(Edit) Welp. I went and did it.

I gave Harold one cycle and he produced 245 kg of polluted water, which adds up to 9.8 kg of dirt, after sieving. Assuming that's relatively representative, a single one of these could support nearly two sleet wheat plants!

 

And thus I solved everyone's polluted water problems forever.

How do you replenish polluted dirt that off-gasses?

[psusi]

On 8/27/2018 at 9:43 PM, tzionut said:

under you have hot to melt the regolith much faster and much easier. Just put an conveyor receptacle submerged by magma made by wolfram and the rails also made by wolfram. When the inside regolith reach 1409.9 degrees it melt and new regolith replace it.

Isn't magma hot enough to melt your dupes exo suits if you try to build in it? And when the regolith does melt, doesn't it just spill out into the lava and can't be retrieved?  Won't this eventually cool the magma and solidify it?

[Saturnus]

14 minutes ago, psusi said:

Isn't magma hot enough to melt your dupes exo suits if you try to build in it? And when the regolith does melt, doesn't it just spill out into the lava and can't be retrieved?  Won't this eventually cool the magma and solidify it?

When regolith melts it becomes magma but because of the difference in SHC each time regolith melts and becomes it actually heats the magma a little bit so you get more and more heat.

[Yoma_Nosme]

23 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

When regolith melts it becomes magma but because of the difference in SHC each time regolith melts and becomes it actually heats the magma a little bit so you get more and more heat.

Sounds to me like a ''make your own volcano'' challenge!

[tzionut]

Quote

When regolith melts it becomes magma but because of the difference in SHC each time regolith melts and becomes it actually heats the magma a little bit so you get more and more heat.

This is false...You have 10000 kg magma at 1800 degrees. You add 100 kg regolith at 300 degrees...The phenomenon is regolith temperature rises, magma drops... after both have same temperature, in the end you will have 10100 kg magma whit lets say 1798 degrees...When the magma get under 1409.9 degrees it solidify to igneous rock... Your goal is after all magma reach let say 1410 degrees you transport it to the void area to get rid of it.. or transport it to one or lots of steam generators and cool it until it reach 230 degrees...

I will make both steam generators and elevators...

[psusi]

4 hours ago, Saturnus said:

When regolith melts it becomes magma but because of the difference in SHC each time regolith melts and becomes it actually heats the magma a little bit so you get more and more heat.

If the SHC went down, it would take less heat to continue to heat it after the change, but would not add any more heat than was already there.  If the SHC goes up, then it will technically add more heat, but the temperature remains unchanged, so you still end up with lower temperature magma than you started with.

[tzionut]

As the heat goes down.. it takes more and more time for the new 100 regolith to reach 1409.9 degrees and melt...sow if you use the drop off sweep arm.. you will need to adjust from time to time the buffer time to prevent the accumulation of regolith without melting...Conclusion. Is better and faster to melt it using the second option (conveyor receiver submerged in lava), but you need to be careful not to reach 1409.9 because all the magma could solidify..

[JonnyMonroe]

13 hours ago, tzionut said:

As the heat goes down.. it takes more and more time for the new 100 regolith to reach 1409.9 degrees and melt...sow if you use the drop off sweep arm.. you will need to adjust from time to time the buffer time to prevent the accumulation of regolith without melting...Conclusion. Is better and faster to melt it using the second option (conveyor receiver submerged in lava), but you need to be careful not to reach 1409.9 because all the magma could solidify..

You could build a safety check into such a system with a tungsten liquid sensor to detect when magma solidifies. If it does, dump some backup magma onto it or run a radiant pipe loop through it with molten glass.

Personally when I melt regolith I just let it harden into rock debris and sweep it to run ovens and feed hatches. Admittedly though I've not build a setup like this since cosmic upgrade so I don't know if it would still work. At one point in cosmic I was supporting about 40 hatches on this setup.

[tzionut]

Quote

You could build a safety check into such a system with a tungsten liquid sensor to detect when magma solidifies

Doesn't work .. max temp on temp sensor and liquid sensor is 300 degrees.

[Saturnus]

You could use iron as a temperature sensor. It becomes solid at 1535C and just stick a liquid sensor in that.

Or there's the circulating chlorine trick where you use chlorine in radiant pipes and take advantage of its low thermal conductivity to accurately measure temperatures well up into the several thousand degrees. You'd have to search the forum a bit for it though.

Found the link: 

 

[The Flying Fox]

Here is that chlorine temperature sensor in action:

I've expanded upon the idea a little bit since AnotherBoris' thread.  The key piece is a single ceramic insulated pipe in the tank of whatever your measuring.  If you're pushing a 1 gram packet of chlorine through the pipe, it heats to about 60% of the temperature of the thing your measuring.  By increasing how many grams in a packet you let through, you can measure increasing higher temperatures as each extra gram carries away less joules/DTUs then the last gram.  I've further decided to add a pulsed shut-off valve to the design which, in my case, only lets packets go through the gas valve every 5 seconds.  This, of course, reduces the amount of heat taken from the thing your measuring.  (Not that 1 gram packets of chlorine will steal much heat from a tank like this, but hey, why not?)

 

As you can see, the top petroleum tank is kept just under 500C while the pipe sensor is reading 296.4C.  If the temperature gets too cold, it tells the above automation to drop more gold into the tank to add more heat.

[tzionut]

Quote

The key piece is a single ceramic insulated pipe in the tank of whatever your measuring.  If you're pushing a 1 gram packet of chlorine through the pipe, it heats to about 60% of the temperature of the thing your measuring.

What material you use for the rest of your pipes? All are ceramic or you use obsidian and only one is ceramic? for the pipe gas sensor?

Post edit:

And the second question, how you prevent the heat lost or accumulation of the chlorine in the loop

[The Flying Fox]

16 hours ago, tzionut said:

What material you use for the rest of your pipes? All are ceramic or you use obsidian and only one is ceramic? for the pipe gas sensor?

Post edit:

And the second question, how you prevent the heat lost or accumulation of the chlorine in the loop

The rest of the pipes are insulated abyssalite besides where the wheezewort is.  The wheezewort is keeping that little room at 0C and that resets the temperature of the chlorine in the pipes, priming it to swing back to the pool.  So, the abyssalite pipes prevents the heat lost of the chlorine after it passes the one insulated pipe made of ceramic and passes the sensors.  What the pipe temperature sensor is made of doesn't mater as it doesn't take energy from the chlorine to measure it's temperature.

 

There's also no accumulation of chlorine as, once you fill the system with about 100 grams of chlorine, you don't need anymore and you can shut it off.  The setup of the valves keeps the chlorine looping endlessly.  The automation hooked up to the shut-off valve pulses ON for 1-second every 5-seconds, letting a burst of chlorine to the next valve, but that valve only lets 1 gram pass, so the rest of the small burst of chlorine heads to the second valve to dump back into the loop but bypassing the sensors.  That valve is just set to 5 grams, but it doesn't really matter.  A bridge would work there just as well.

 

I've also been thinking about the Regolith problem as well and soon plan to make my own melter for it.  After a little experimentation, this working (sorta), but cramped proto-type.  Unfortunately, I found that the molten glass just doesn't have the mass nor heat capacity to fully support this.  It would have to be hooked up to a volcano I'm sure.  I had to spam molten glass out of it in dubug mode for the proto-type to function how I wanted.  The general concept is to dump regolith in small chunks into the submerged storage compactor (This one is set to 5KG) which will use as little of the magma's temperature to melt the pre-heated regolith as possible.  The excess magma produced spills out of the side in 50 KG chunks for the sweeper to stuff in the loader which then goes through a solid thermal exchanger to pre-heat the regolith being shipped in.

 

Since the out-going igneous rock chucks have 5 fives the thermal energy of the incoming regolith, the igneous rock chunks will come out of the thermal exchanger with still plenty of heat to spare.  The tricky part is getting a steady flow of igneous rock chunks through the exchanger.

 

 

The more expanded thought-out proto-type:

 

 

Cooling the loader and the sweeper can be done by oil dropped onto that two tile wide block as long as the oil is touching something further that can whisk away the heat.  The metal blocks will separated by either insulated tiles or just a vacuum.

[psusi]

On 9/17/2018 at 9:41 PM, tzionut said:

As the heat goes down.. it takes more and more time for the new 100 regolith to reach 1409.9 degrees and melt...sow if you use the drop off sweep arm.. you will need to adjust from time to time the buffer time to prevent the accumulation of regolith without melting...Conclusion. Is better and faster to melt it using the second option (conveyor receiver submerged in lava), but you need to be careful not to reach 1409.9 because all the magma could solidify..

Yes, but what good is a conveyor receiver full of magma?  You can't remove the liquid magma from it ( and it spills out automatically doesn't it? ).  Or are you just using a pump to suck up the magma and replacing it by letting the heat of the remaining magma melt more regolith?  But eventually the magma will cool won't it and shut down the system?

Also, at the surface, I see sometimes metor impacts strew loose regolith balls around, and sometimes it turns into solid tiles.  What decides this?

Also the obsidien tiles at POIs/gravitas facility seem to be meteor proof.  Are dupe made obsidian tiles too?

[Andz]

Would it be possible to make a mod that just multiplies the meteor mass by 0.1 ?

[tzionut]

Quote

Unfortunately, I found that the molten glass just doesn't have the mass nor heat capacity to fully support this.  It would have to be hooked up to a volcano I'm sure.  I had to spam molten glass out of it in dubug mode for the proto-type to function how I wanted.  The general concept is to dump regolith in small chunks into the submerged storage compactor (This one is set to 5KG) which will use as little of the magma's temperature to melt the pre-heated regolith as possible.  The excess magma produced spills out of the side in 50 KG chunks for the sweeper to stuff in the loader which then goes through a solid thermal exchanger to pre-heat the regolith being shipped in.

Been there.. done that already. Thanks for the explication. I will add the chlorine sensor for commanding the doors compressors to evacuate the 1410 degrees magma to the void area and dispose it from the game...

I started already my regolith magmaficator (the digging part and the ragnor pit ) I will do it In 2 version whit and without any volcano

Now I started the second version using for heating only the magma in the bottom biom (after i will finish 80% of magma i will go for the volcano version). I recommend to you to use my method of conveyor receiver submerged in magma. Is faster than the dropping regolith whit sweep arm, and you don't need to control the buffer time for preventing regolith pile stocking. 

Going to work. Have a nice day.

Post edit

Quote

Yes, but what good is a conveyor receiver full of magma?  You can't remove the liquid magma from it ( and it spills out automatically doesn't it? ).  Or are you just using a pump to suck up the magma and replacing it by letting the heat of the remaining magma melt more regolith?  But eventually the magma will cool won't it and shut down the system?

When the regolith inside the conveyor receiver reach 1409.9 degrees melt and another 100 kg of regolith take it's place...(the magma mass increase whit 100 kg and the temp drop a little. And yes the plan is to push up the magma using a door compressor for the bottom magma, until it reach the void, then it will vanish without leaving behind igneous rock. I don't know yet the temperature i will start the disposal of the magma, but i want to be automatic so first i will set a chlorine sensor for commanding the door pump. The temp will be not to high for not wasting precious lava, and not too low for preventing igneous rock formation. This is my first challenge in this only pacifist dupe game. 

The second objective is dig all the map and dispose by building and/or smelting all that i can use until cycle 1370. Then I will load this game and my previous one and record the loading time. Except my main base and the gases and liquid storage areas, it will be only void, after i will test the rocket part for bugs...
The last objective is explore different substances (in my last game i made by error phosphor in liquid and solid form.) 

[psusi]

9 hours ago, tzionut said:

When the regolith inside the conveyor receiver reach 1409.9 degrees melt and another 100 kg of regolith take it's place...(the magma mass increase whit 100 kg and the temp drop a little. And yes the plan is to push up the magma using a door compressor for the bottom magma, until it reach the void, then it will vanish without leaving behind igneous rock. I don't know yet the temperature i will start the disposal of the magma, but i want to be automatic so first i will set a chlorine sensor for commanding the door pump. The temp will be not to high for not wasting precious lava, and not too low for preventing igneous rock formation. This is my first challenge in this only pacifist dupe game. 

So you would have to have a dupe build a door under 1 tile of magma ( so they don't actually step into the stuff since that will kill them right? ), and then a huge stack of doors all the way to the surface?  Why not just use the trick to get a pump to pump the magma through abyssalite insulated pipes to the surface?

[tzionut]

 

Quote

So you would have to have a dupe build a door under 1 tile of magma ( so they don't actually step into the stuff since that will kill them right? ), and then a huge stack of doors all the way to the surface?  Why not just use the trick to get a pump to pump the magma through abyssalite insulated pipes to the surface?

Because sooner or later the pump will break and i want minimum dupe intervention... And no.. no doors under magma...You will see it when my design will be finish... I can try to make it in sandbox mode this night for better explication of what i want to do.. then build it in my game for melting the regolith

The dupe don't need any door. It is enough obsidian leader. All in vacuum for not having heat loss.

[Saturnus]

Btw, if you need a sweeper in a vacuum, here's two easy ways of keeping it cool.

[wachunga]

With the chlorine insulated pipe temperature sensor, it's the pipe being insulated which makes it works. That limits the heat transferred between the pipe and the chlorine by chlorine's conductivity, the pipe's conductivity doesn't matter.

You are actually better off using insulated granite because then the tile to pipe heat transfer is better which reduces lag and improves the precision of the sensor. Due to how building/tile heat transfer works, this may not be apparent in all situations. In 1000kg of hotter petroleum, ceramic is close enough to granite. In 100kg of hotter petroleum, the lag due to ceramic's lower conductivity becomes noticeable and granite would be the better choice.

Building/tile transfers take into account the mass and SHC of the hotter object while pipe/contents do not. As far as I've been able to determine through experimentation:

Pipe/contents: heat transferred = 10 * temperature difference * conductivity. Where conductivity is the average for radiant and normal pipes or the lowest for insulated pipes.

Building/tile: heat transferred = 0.1 * temperature difference * conductivity * SHC * mass. Where SHC and mass are those of the hotter object with buildings having 1/5 what you would expect. Conductivity is the conductivity of the two objects multiplied together.

Those are per tick. Rapidly unpause/pause until you get just one tick of transfer, divide the heat transferred by the mass and SHC of the object and you can predict what it's new temperature will be. Buildings change 5x more than what you would expect. Turbines don't follow these rules, there are probably other special cases.

I've mostly given up on the game due to how buggy and unbalanced it has become, but please let me know if the above equations fail somewhere.

[tzionut]

Whit great proud i present to you the fastest Regolith magmaficator (made in sandbox mode...for testing)

I attached my save file for you to test it

How it works:

In the void area i have a sweep arm and a conveyor loader made whit steel (275 degrees heating temp) that take the regolith and move it to the conveyor rail to the bottom area.  My original idea was to use the door smasher and transporter to the ragnar pit to be dropped in the magma area, butt it will be build in my current game in survival mode.

Spoiler

In the bottom area you have the wolfram conveyor receiver whit wolfram rails (to prevent melting)... the rest of the rail it can be made whit gold amalgam. It take the regolith and melt it in the pit of magma. I put 5 receiver for showing the advantages of this method instead of the drop arm method. It can be done whit 1 or 2 or as i show to you 5 pieces.

Spoiler

The sensor for commanding the door (thanks The flying fox) for evacuating the magma is the chlorine type. Easy mini gas pump commanded by a not, filter (200s), filter (200s), filter (200s), buffer (1s) circuit that allow to 30 mg of chlorine in the abyssalite gas pipe once per cycle. When the gas reach the segment of ceramic submerged in magma start to heat (from 17 to 82 degrees) I use the rule of 3 for setting the temperature of the gas pipe sensor. When it reach 1410 degrees the the sensor activate the input of the toggle circuit and let the door open until all the magma is evacuated. The reset is wired whit a wolfram liquid pressure sensor.

The Wheezeworth maintain the temp at 17 degrees and the door for stooping the future cooling is controlled by the temp sensor.

Spoiler

For improvement (I will do this in my survival build), whit a not gate i will wire the pressure sensor whit the sweep arm for stopping the input of regolith, preventing this way the dropping of the temp before the lava is evacuated. 

The door pump is the saturnus design (thank you my friend). No modification made. The doors are made from wolfram and the wire tungsten ( it can be iron if is in a zone without magma contact...except the wire from the doors.  The dupe aces is whit a water lock and all the magma is in void for preventing the heat lost.

The walls of the pit must be abyssalite. I dropped the temp for starting the pumping of the magma to the surface.

Enjoy it.

Utopia.sav

Post edit:

Waiting for the magma to reach void surface i want to see how much regolith i melted in one cycle see for yourself. The quantity it will drop once the magma cools

Spoiler

 

[Saturnus]

I tried replacing the door push pump with the gas trick pump, and boy, it's a lot faster. The magma shoots up like a bat out of hell.

[psusi]

7 hours ago, tzionut said:

Because sooner or later the pump will break and i want minimum dupe intervention

It will?  Why?

I don't understand this chlorine sensor thing.  It sounds like you are sending a burst of cold chlorine into the pipe and if the temperature is hot enough, it will heat the chlorine up fast enough in the one tick it is inside the pipe for that you can then measure that high temperature and infer the temperature of the magma?  Why do you care about the temperature of the magma?  Don't you just want to pump once the level of magma rises?

30 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

I tried replacing the door push pump with the gas trick pump, and boy, it's a lot faster. The magma shoots up like a bat out of hell.

How does that work again?  Why can the liquid not push the air back up in that little pocket?

Finally, if you keep dumping regolith into the magma to melt ( and why use receptacles instead of just having sweepers drop it all the way to the bottom? ), won't it eventually cool and shut down the system?  Or is there some infinite well of heat deep inside the magma?  Or is there just so much magma that is sufficiently high above its own melting point that it basically takes forever?