On the fairness of the Gorge Tournament

[BigBearger]

Hi, I'd want to know some information about this “The Gorge Tournament”.

What are the conditions for the first ranking? The length? Integral? Or something else?

I don't want to see klei allow players to play for five or six hours in a row, or even stay up for more than 10 hours to get high scores for Gorge in order to get the first ranking.

I think everyone has their own life, such as working and studying (although now it's summer vacation).

Games should be a way to relax rather than a burden, right?

Does the Gorge Tournament support the mods? Many people use them. How to ensure the fairness and authenticity of each ranking?

If Klei prohibit all players using mods, I think its best, but I don't know the developers can do it or not.

If mod is allowed to using, then I think this is a very unfair game.

I saw a lot of interesting mod in the Steam Workshop, which can show the Gnaw’s requirements and directly show the corresponding recipes.

The mod can also display the remaining time, the salt cooling time, and fully automatic help us cut down trees, hoe fields and sow seeds. You can even click a button to automatically go to a fixed location in the game.

You might say, I can use mods, so anybody can use mods, right?

But don't forget, we're all using public mods in Steam Workshop, and there are a lot of mod writers, and it's not hard to make a "special" mods to win.

They can use the mods privately, not publicly, and I don't think it's any different than cheating.

What if we had more functionality than whose mod? This was clearly one of klei's worst decisions.

So, I hope it's a fair game between players, not a mods game.

 

Digression

Can exclusive backgrounds and avatars be traded?

I know its redundant question, they're definitely not tradable, because it's a symbol of winning players.

But it didn't stop me from asking this question.

I have a friend, it took him 2 years to collect all of the skins, but when he noticed his lack of a "Bottomless Pit" and can't get it, he tried to klei email, get is the same answer, and he couldn't get the “Bottomless Pit “of the skin.

He was very sad, and then he sold all his skins and left us, away from the keyboard.

Exclusive backgrounds and avatars for players who are on the list of binge eaters, I know they are not measurable by money.

So what about those skin collectors? Collecting skins is their hobbies. If klei holds a similar championship, there may be more competitions and more exclusive skin in the future.

Not everyone has a chance to win exclusive skin, right?

@joew

@joew

[Lumina]

22 minutes ago, BigBearger said:

I don't want to see klei allow players to play for five or six hours in a row, or even stay up for more than 10 hours to get high scores for Gorge in order to get the first ranking.

I too hope it will be avoided.

23 minutes ago, BigBearger said:

So what about those skin collectors? Collecting skins is their hobbies. If klei holds a similar championship, there may be more competitions and more exclusive skin in the future.

It's hard to find how to reward people invested in the game without either depriving some people of the possibility to collect all skin or creating risk of abuse. In this case, i strongly prefer avoiding all kind of possible abuse. Meaning that exclusive rewards aren't available for skin collectors.

 

I know it's not a pleasant idea that you'll never have all the skin when you are a collector. But i also know that making the reward tradable will create issues, like players feeling forced to sell their reward because the amount of money is too great to miss, people feeling that they have to spend high amount of money because the reward is unique, people feeling angry if for a reason or another the reward lose his value, people feeling that they HAVE to win because the reward is too great to miss...

 

For normal skins, the market usually regulate itself. The most expensive skin currently is around 50$ and it's a seasonal skin out of season (meaning it could be a lot lower). But what would be the price of the unique copy of a skin ? 500$ ? 1000$ ? And should the game encourage a collector to pay that price ?

 

Another possibility is to totally avoid skins that can't be obtained by all player. No more plushies skin (not everyone can buy goodies), no more exclusive reward skin. The two factors allowing collection would be luck and time, and money will allows to speed the process or counter bad luck but nothing else.

 

I must admit i would be in favour of the second possibility. But i also understand why skin are great reward and could be used for this in events like this one. Meaning that collectors will never be able to collect all the skins. As imperfect as it could be, it's still better than exchangeable rewards.

[Alarsin]

9 hours ago, BigBearger said:

Hi, I'd want to know some information about this “The Gorge Tournament”.

What are the conditions for the first ranking? The length? Integral? Or something else?

I think JoeW said they'll publish the details tomorrow.

9 hours ago, BigBearger said:

I don't want to see klei allow players to play for five or six hours in a row, or even stay up for more than 10 hours to get high scores for Gorge in order to get the first ranking.

I think everyone has their own life, such as working and studying (although now it's summer vacation).

Games should be a way to relax rather than a burden, right?

Did you see the current leaderboard? The top teams are people who can cook meals quickly, not people who play for 6 hours in a single game.

9 hours ago, BigBearger said:

Does the Gorge Tournament support the mods? Many people use them. How to ensure the fairness and authenticity of each ranking?

If Klei prohibit all players using mods, I think its best, but I don't know the developers can do it or not.

If mod is allowed to using, then I think this is a very unfair game.

I saw a lot of interesting mod in the Steam Workshop, which can show the Gnaw’s requirements and directly show the corresponding recipes.

The mod can also display the remaining time, the salt cooling time, and fully automatic help us cut down trees, hoe fields and sow seeds. You can even click a button to automatically go to a fixed location in the game.

You might say, I can use mods, so anybody can use mods, right?

But don't forget, we're all using public mods in Steam Workshop, and there are a lot of mod writers, and it's not hard to make a "special" mods to win.

They can use the mods privately, not publicly, and I don't think it's any different than cheating.

What if we had more functionality than whose mod? This was clearly one of klei's worst decisions.

So, I hope it's a fair game between players, not a mods game.

Do you know the difference between server mods and client mods? All the current Gorge servers are Klei-hosted servers which means you cannot enable mods that would change the gameplay.

9 hours ago, BigBearger said:

Can exclusive backgrounds and avatars be traded?

I know its redundant question, they're definitely not tradable, because it's a symbol of winning players.

Well, you answered your question yourself.

9 hours ago, BigBearger said:

I have a friend, it took him 2 years to collect all of the skins, but when he noticed his lack of a "Bottomless Pit" and can't get it, he tried to klei email, get is the same answer, and he couldn't get the “Bottomless Pit “of the skin.

He was very sad, and then he sold all his skins and left us, away from the keyboard.

Guess whose fault is that? If his goal was collecting every skin that exists in the game then it'd be wise to do some research and figure out if it's even possible.

9 hours ago, BigBearger said:

Not everyone has a chance to win exclusive skin, right?

Everyone who is interested has a chance to win.

9 hours ago, BigBearger said:

@joew

@joew

JoeW hear my call! I shall summon thee to this thread!

[Lumina]

20 minutes ago, Alarsin said:

Did you see the current leaderboard? The top teams are people who can cook meals quickly, not people who play for 6 hours in a single game.

It wasn't the case at first, so it's a good question to ask. There were multiple days with people with 6+ hours in top entry (and i don't know if it's not the case because they stopped or because of a change).

20 minutes ago, Alarsin said:

Do you know the difference between server mods and client mods? All the current Gorge servers are Klei-hosted servers which means you cannot enable mods that would change the gameplay.

Client mods are helpful, they could give informations. We all have access to the public client mods on the workshop**, this part is fair. But we don't know if some people have mods that aren't public and still helpful, so the question is understandable. I suppose that there will be nothing against client mod (since i don't think it's easy to prevent), but i do hope there aren't mod outside of public workshop that could make a big difference.

 

** players console don't but they aren't playing this contest anyway.

[BadScra]

6 hours ago, BigBearger said:

I don't want to see klei allow players to play for five or six hours in a row, or even stay up for more than 10 hours to get high scores for Gorge in order to get the first ranking.

If mod is allowed to using, then I think this is a very unfair game.

I agree with you. Client mods on the Gorge (Gorge Extender and other mods for Gorge) are cheat because easy win. Geez.

i just use few client mods are Smooth Camera, Map Controls Removal (map hud removed), Gesture Wheel, Status Announcements and Geometric Placement. i love very few Huds.

[MrMofolz]

agree 100% with the main posters views on mods for the tournament.

[zarklord_klei]

16 minutes ago, BadScra said:

I agree with you. Client mods on the Gorge (Gorge Extender and other mods for Gorge) are cheat because easy win. Geez.

i just use few client mods are Smooth Camera, Map Controls Removal (map hud removed), Gesture Wheel, Status Announcements and Geometric Placement. i love very few Huds.

how do mods translate to easy win? they save a couple seconds at most(not waiting by mumsy to see the craving, not accidentally re-tilling a piece of land) i would be very interested in a fully scripted run where the player actual does nothing, heck even a fully scripted first 3 dishes(where it actually processes cravings not just offers the same dishes) would be interesting, but it won't happen because the kind of mods that do that A do it poorly(a human is more efficient) or B don't exist and C would be way too specialized you cant have a "automatic" gorge run that can just do a different run than what it was programmed for, and it would take more than a week to properly program and debug a script and even still they always do it worse than a human.

[MrMofolz]

4 minutes ago, Zarklord said:

how do mods translate to easy win? they save a couple seconds at most(not waiting by mumsy to see the craving, not accidentally re-tilling a piece of land)

I highlighted the part that was the issue.

How many seconds is that in a gorge run? =) 
in a mode where 1 second can become additional minutes, how much time is "a couple seconds" worth?

[zarklord_klei]

On 7/10/2018 at 11:18 AM, MrMofolz said:

I highlighted the part that was the issue.

How many seconds is that in a gorge run? =) 
in a mode where 1 second can become additional minutes, how much time is "a couple seconds" worth?

sorry buddy, but that's just not true, 1 second can't turn into additional minutes, that's not how the gorge timer works, if you offer a dish with 5 seconds left in the game the timer if your lucky it might go up to 25 seconds(that would only happen if you hadn't offered a dish since the start of the game) more likely you might get to 12-13 seconds, but that's just cause the speed resets, you don't gain almost any actual time by offering a dish, you only reset the speed. TL;DR: you cant turn 1 second into multiple minutes, its just not how the game works, sorry pal.

[MrMofolz]

Just now, Zarklord said:

sorry buddy, but thats just no true, 1 second can't turn into addition minutes, thats not how the gorge timer works, if you offer a dish with 5 seconds left in the game the timer if your lucky it might go up to 25 seconds(that would only happen if you hadn't offered a dish since the start of the game) more likely you might get to 12-13 seconds, but that's just cause the speed resets, you don't gain almost any actual time by offering a dish, you only reset the speed. TL;DR: you cant turn 1 second into multiple minutes, its just not how the game works, sorry pal.

12 seconds eh? so that's basically 12 extra dishes. good to know.

[zarklord_klei]

Just now, MrMofolz said:

12 seconds eh? so that's basically 12 extra dishes. good to know.

again no. if you actually had 12 dishes prepared to offer at the last 12 seconds then its a different issue entirely, i have yet to see a run, where a mod allowed them to offer a extra dish that they wouldn't have had time to otherwise. also im not saying each dish adds 12 seconds, im saying reseting the speed would give you 12 seconds, further dishes might add 1 second at the most.

[Lumina]

38 minutes ago, Zarklord said:

how do mods translate to easy win?

I do think this comment was sarcastic, but it's the problem with sarcasm, i'm not entirely sure.

Anyway, mods are a convenience. It's not that they save time, it's mostly, for me, that they remove some pressure (no need to remember perfectly a lot of things, less risk of error, and so on). Which isn't a bad thing as long as everyone can use them.

So public mods on the workshop are fine for me, but there is still the possibility of mods not on the workshop that will help giving whatever information that could help. It's not a big issue, and probably something hard to solve anyway, but still, not perfectly fair.

[Tumalu]

The top scores on the current high score board are all 1.5~2 hours, so I wouldn't worry about 6 hour runs. If there's additional categories, pretty much everything else I can think of would be vastly shorter run times than that.

[MrMofolz]

2 hours ago, Zarklord said:

again no. if you actually had 12 dishes prepared to offer at the last 12 seconds then its a different issue entirely, i have yet to see a run, where a mod allowed them to offer a extra dish that they wouldn't have had time to otherwise. also im not saying each dish adds 12 seconds, im saying reseting the speed would give you 12 seconds, further dishes might add 1 second at the most.

I imagine all those 2 hour runs had multiple dishes prepared well in advance 

[zarklord_klei]

Just now, MrMofolz said:

I imagine all those 2 hour runs had multiple dishes prepared well in advance 

while thats true, what your saying is still unrealistic, your saying they would have prepared 12 dishes, but not offered even 1 till 2-4 seconds left in the game then offer all of them? not only does it sound unrealistic but it sounds stupid.

[CrazyMoeMew]

Literally, you can't avoid any farming in any game.

You thought the new Tournament is fair? I can assure you that it will become a new kind of farming game anyway and Absolute fairness is not exist. Because every game in the world has its own utilitarian way to play as long as it has a kind of ranks or leaderboards. (smh

Unfortunately, Klei didn't ban any client-side mod in there events all the time. In the Forge Event, players can use mod to avoid walking by L-CLICK so that the animation canceling attack became quite easy.

You call those 2-hour run is farming. I think the new Gorge Tournament is another rank of farmig, just in another way. It's not due to the client mods but to the Gorge design itself. The random craving of Gnaw is the source of unfairness. Besides the mastery of all utils recipes, the only thing you need is been lucky enough if you want to get a good score.

Didn't get the Garlic seed within 2 random open at the beginning? Good! Just restart the game.

Didn't get veggie at the 2nd round of craving? Good! Just restart the game and pray to God to meet that goddamn veggie next time.

Didn't have enough meat craving at the rest of the game? Congratz! You won't have a nice score. Just quit the game and roll all your effort back to zero!

In my view, there is no fairness at all. Not only in the DST Events, but all score-based games have no fairness. At least, My friends and I don't cry like someone who complain to Klei like:

"Those Asian teams farming by hours and I don't have that much time. so Plz change the rule of ranking Klei daddy~ " LOL

C'mon , Don't blame on the rule of the game. Be mature. All you need to do is do enough study and practice, then join the competation. Or just play this event for fun, so that you won't be bothered by those tricks or recipes memorizing stuff.  :^)

On 2018/7/10 at 10:11 PM, Alarsin said:

Do you know the difference between server mods and client mods? All the current Gorge servers are Klei-hosted servers which means you cannot enable mods that would change the gameplay.

The client mods of this Event is a kind of unfair enough I think.

e.g You can only pick up the red marks from tons of coins. Automatically sowing and chopping. etc.

[Remps]

i want that rewards too but i have a life and i cant spend 6-7 hours in a day  it makes me sad feels bad  

[Remps]

still quiet

[Courage10000]

Yeah, there is no way in hell these guys on the leaderboard got scores of 5000+ without some sort of pathetic mod or anything. I've done everything I could and couldn't even get 3500. This is a terrible tournament.

[zarklord_klei]

3 hours ago, Courage10000 said:

Yeah, there is no way in hell these guys on the leaderboard got scores of 5000+ without some sort of pathetic mod or anything. I've done everything I could and couldn't even get 3500. This is a terrible tournament.

dont chalk up your lack of skill to mod compensation, there is a twitch streamer called clwnbaby he does high point runs without using mods.

[fimmatek]

3 hours ago, Courage10000 said:

Yeah, there is no way in hell these guys on the leaderboard got scores of 5000+ without some sort of pathetic mod or anything. I've done everything I could and couldn't even get 3500. This is a terrible tournament.

May I ask what that "everything" is? What team strategy you used, how much you trained, how much time you invested, how you plan your runs, etc?

[Remps]

1 hour ago, fimmatek said:

May I ask what that "everything" is? What team strategy you used, how much you trained, how much time you invested, how you plan your runs, etc?

calm down , they got a lot of free time but others cant play much

[Courage10000]

2 hours ago, Zarklord said:

dont chalk up your lack of skill to mod compensation, there is a twitch streamer called clwnbaby he does high point runs without using mods.

This "lack of skill" is still probably a million leagues above you, Morty descendant.

[Mr. Makoto]

This event is really fun in my opinion, but there is no way you make a tournament with a 50% chance of second dishe comes as bread. Like, seriously? the advantage verg has over bread is ridiculous making all speedrunner just quit as bread comes. Then you go back to the initial screen of the game. I know its too late to fix it but pls, next Gorge delete bread in second dishes, its really annoying. Thanks

[fimmatek]

6 hours ago, Remps said:

calm down , they got a lot of free time but others cant play much

I am sorry if my post was too harsh, it wasn't my intention. 

I know that winning getting the best at these events requires a lot of time, planning, practicing invested and that many people (me too) simply cannot play that much. I wanted to point out that accomplishments may take a lot of dedication to reach, both in games and real life, and we must accept it. And if that's the cause of the best teams' success, then it's unfair and just blaming to say that "there is no way in hell without some sort of pathetic mod".

Also, looking back at the Forge it's clear that abusing mods or exploits are not sufficient for getting a score that is so much better than the average. Good teamwork, plans and knowledge of everyone's job made the best teams the best, mods are only a small addition to that.