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TehPlayer14

Exploits ruin the game, they need to go

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TehPlayer14    125

In my opinion exploit ruin the game experience and the fun/ length of playing

One such exploit which has been quite around for long time is deleting the heat via water purifier

And its also unrealistic

I feel like the devs should focus on balancing the game more and removing old exploits

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TehPlayer14    125
5 minutes ago, XEVEN said:

We have space now. Complaining about heat deletion is pretty silly. It's intended.

But we also lose the material when we dump it into space

In water purifier we dont

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chemie    749

Almost every machine has fixed output temp.  These are not exploits.  They are intended design.  You can disagree with this design but you dont help your arguement by calling them something they are not.

Sieve, electrolzers, refinary, polymer press etc

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TehPlayer14    125
1 hour ago, chemie said:

Almost every machine has fixed output temp.  These are not exploits.  They are intended design.  You can disagree with this design but you dont help your arguement by calling them something they are not.

Sieve, electrolzers, refinary, polymer press etc

Electrolzers was fixed so its matter of time (and was probably reverted)

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chemie    749
Just now, TehPlayer14 said:

Electrolzers was fixed so its matter of time

??? Electros are and always have been 70c output

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BlueLance    807
35 minutes ago, TehPlayer14 said:

Electrolzers was fixed so its matter of time

Electrolyzers are still 70 degrees, so dno what you mean by fixed.

Also I wouldn't say it is an exploit (I dont use it, but I boil all my polluted water anyway), pretty sure the devs stated that fixed outputs are intended at the moment and will be adjusted further down the line.

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KittenIsAGeek    1685
14 minutes ago, turbonl64 said:

Some have been fixed, others have not yet and still other do not need a fix. Eletrolyzers pumping out a fixed 70°C isn't exactly an advantage as that's not a workable heat for duplicants or plants. Theoritically there is somewhere an advantage concerning heat deletion in there, but overall you are more bothered with cooling the output than getting heat deletion synergies out of it.

The fixed water sieve output, that is an exploit. Deleting 20-30°C out of 5kg/s water is significant because water otherwise is a lot harder to cool. I do wish to see a new device for cooling though, because cooling options are frankly very limited in this game.

OK, I'd like to clarify some things before I start:

  1. This is a game, not reality.
  2. Intended design is not an exploit.

Now that that is taken care of... There have been posts from the designers in the past that have stated that fixed output was part of the design for certain devices -- the sieve is one of them.  While this is a game, the design does in fact reflect reality somewhat: There is a relationship between reverse osmosis throughput and water temperature.  As temperature goes up, efficiency and throughput increases.  However, some materials like the sieve membrane can be temperature sensitive.  Higher temperatures can damage them.  So, the trick is to find an optimum water temperature where throughput is highest without damaging the internal components.  Since the ONI sieve requires power, its possible that it is used in some high-tech module that normalizes the temperature of the water for greatest efficiency of the device... Who knows -- we can't print duplicants IRL yet.

 

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chemie    749

If someone feels sieve is an exploit, just put a tepidizer on the outlet and automate to heat to inlet temp.  

I dont think it is an exploit and think it would be silly to heat that water up before it goes to an electrolilizer which outputs at 70c regardless of inlet temp but do whatever you want.  It is your sandbox.  Just dont demand the developer changes the code to suit your personal game design.

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Sevio    341
8 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

While this is a game, the design does in fact reflect reality somewhat: There is a relationship between reverse osmosis throughput and water temperature.  As temperature goes up, efficiency and throughput increases.  However, some materials like the sieve membrane can be temperature sensitive.  Higher temperatures can damage them.  So, the trick is to find an optimum water temperature where throughput is highest without damaging the internal components.  Since the ONI sieve requires power, its possible that it is used in some high-tech module that normalizes the temperature of the water for greatest efficiency of the device... Who knows -- we can't print duplicants IRL yet.

 

The part of the sieve which does not reflect reality at all (and which creates inconsistency compared to how other machines handle heat in their output products) is that you can feed it nearly boiling polluted water and not only does it not damage the sieve, that heat magically disappears when it ejects the purified, 40 C water. A compromise here could be that the output temperature is either the input water's temperature or 40 C, whichever is higher.

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chemie    749
2 minutes ago, Sevio said:

The part of the sieve which does not reflect reality at all (and which creates inconsistency compared to how other machines handle heat in their output products) is that you can feed it nearly boiling polluted water and not only does it not damage the sieve, that heat magically disappears when it ejects the purified, 40 C water. A compromise here could be that the output temperature is either the input water's temperature or 40 C, whichever is higher.

But then feeding cold water gets heated for free which is a new "exploit" where sieve becomes heater vs cooler

4 minutes ago, turbonl64 said:

1. Nowhere near did I claim I was going for reality.

2. There are surely intention behind the 40°C output, they probably reasoned that they should make water a bit uncomfortable hot for normal usage, but I do not believe when it was deviced that the developers took into account how massively overpowered the cooling potential is.

So no, not taken care of.

Ok.  So why not put a tepidizer on the outlet so your complaint goes away.

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KittenIsAGeek    1685
4 minutes ago, Sevio said:

The part of the sieve which does not reflect reality at all (and which creates inconsistency compared to how other machines handle heat in their output products) is that you can feed it nearly boiling polluted water and not only does it not damage the sieve, that heat magically disappears when it ejects the purified, 40 C water. A compromise here could be that the output temperature is either the input water's temperature or 40 C, whichever is higher.

As I said: Some of the power goes to normalize the water temperature to something useful for the sieve.  In reality, water filters (for, say, a soda machine at a gas station) are in-line tubes that use no power at all.  The power the sieve uses must go for something.  Perhaps its to heat up or cool down the water to the point that the sieve is most efficient.  The sieve also produces a lot of heat on its own.  No, its not equal to the amount of heat removed from near-boiling water, but all the same: Work is being done inside the device, resulting in waste heat.  

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KittenIsAGeek    1685
Just now, turbonl64 said:

Now I know you try to redicule the discussion here which I don't exactly appreciate. I however simply don't use the exploit. I usually end up cooling my water, and whatever gets converted into polluted water stays below 40°C, meaning the exploit will always work to my disadvantage.

The issue can be easily solved. Output temperature should be input temperature + a fixed amount of heat added.

Its not an exploit. It is intended design. If you don't like it, then don't use it.

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Gurgel    3127

I don't see the problem. This game does not use exact physics, because it is not a physics situation. It is a game and as such it needs to be fun to play.

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chemie    749
6 minutes ago, turbonl64 said:

Now I know you try to redicule the discussion here which I don't exactly appreciate. I however simply don't use the exploit. I usually end up cooling my water, and whatever gets converted into polluted water stays below 40°C, meaning the exploit will always work to my disadvantage.

The issue can be easily solved. Output temperature should be input temperature + a fixed amount of heat added.

The ridicule is people asking for design changes.  If someone wants to use the deletion, fine.  If they dont, fine.

For me, I ignore it.  Sometimes I feed 0c pw to the sieve and sometimes 50c.  I never purposely heat pw to 120c before sieving, mostly because I do not have much heat issues to begin with.

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_Q_    644

Heat deletion, heh.

I have ice biomes and cold slush geyser, deleting all heat I want without any problems whatsoever, but if not for that in previous game I just used wheezworts that are free heat deletion, if used right they can do wonders, then there are those cold producing machines that run on hydrogen and so on and so forth, its all to the point that I don't even bother with the cooling machines that we can build.

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Sevio    341
11 minutes ago, chemie said:

But then feeding cold water gets heated for free which is a new "exploit" where sieve becomes heater vs cooler

That effect is already in the game now (feed cold polluted water and get 40 C water) and isn't used by anyone to my knowledge, so no issue there.

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chemie    749
3 minutes ago, turbonl64 said:

It's not an intended design, it's an exploit. If you like it, better use it now before developers remove it from the game :D

(and if you wish not to drag the discussion down to this, then by all means elaborate on your standpoint instead of trying to shut me up)

How do you know it is not intended?  Inversely, others have stated Klei confirmed it is working by design and it clearly purposely coded vs true exploits like the old bug.

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jmf35    38

Heat deletion is lame and it defies common-sense expectations. Inputs below internal machine temp should be raised, input above internal machine temp should be output at original temp. Internal machine temp should only be influenced by external air temp (not input material temp, to avoid runaway overheating). I don't expect machines to use perfect real-world materials science, but being able to reduce 100° water to 40° for 120w is absurd. The current mechanic feels ways too dumbed down for a quasi-realistic physics sim and I'd be shocked if it's intended to leave beta in this state.

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SamLogan    1143
1 hour ago, TehPlayer14 said:

In my opinion exploit ruin the game experience and the fun/ length of playing

You don't have to use know exploits ! :wilsondisapproving:

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chemie    749
1 minute ago, turbonl64 said:

People want a reasonable (reasonable, I'm not saying realistic) game. Clearly a water sieve should not act as heat deletion device, just like a fertilizer maker should not act as a power enabler.

If you compare heat deletion through a simple water sieve to what you have to set up in power supply and installation for aqua tuners, which were specifically designed to have this function, which yield far less heat removal from the cooled water (and on top of that adds that heat somewhere else), then you just know this is not intended.

Is weezewort reasonable or unrealistic?

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KittenIsAGeek    1685
9 minutes ago, turbonl64 said:

It's not an intended design, it's an exploit. If you like it, better use it now before developers remove it from the game :D

(and if you wish not to drag the discussion down to this, then by all means elaborate on your standpoint instead of trying to shut me up)

I can't find them now, but I have read posts from the devs in the past stating that the sieve (and carbon skimmer and electrolyzer) fixed temperature output was part of the design.  If you can point me to a post where they said it was unintentional, then I'll consider that you may have a point about it being an exploit.  

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trukogre    235
1 minute ago, turbonl64 said:

People want a reasonable (reasonable, I'm not saying realistic) game. Clearly a water sieve should not act as heat deletion device, just like a fertilizer maker should not act as a power enabler.

If you compare heat deletion through a simple water sieve to what you have to set up in power supply and installation for aqua tuners, which were specifically designed to have this function, which yield far less heat removal from the cooled water (and on top of that adds that heat somewhere else), then you just know this is not intended.

You guys should stop talking past each other.  If you would agree to stop using the unnecessarily inflammatory term 'exploit', you could all probably agree that the water sieve is possibly more powerful than the devs intended and should be fixed before release to be more reasonable, yet you insist on arguing over semantics.  

 

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chemie    749
Just now, BlueLance said:

Both! Cuz they do what they were intended

Exactly

1 minute ago, trukogre said:

You guys should stop talking past each other.  If you would agree to stop using the unnecessarily inflammatory term 'exploit', you could all probably agree that the water sieve is possibly more powerful than the devs intended and should be fixed before release to be more reasonable, yet you insist on arguing over semantics.  

 

I dont see the sieve as powerful.  I usually only use it for closed loop designs like co2 scrubbers and toilets

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