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[Game Update] - 272331

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0xFADE    460

Technically.  All they really did with the natural gas was remove it from early/mid game. 

They made the exotic thing of making gas through boiling the only real way to do it.

Boiling makes so much gas that the one fert room I had made was backed up at over 50kg a tile of natural gas since I was making so much through boiling.  The sheer difference in output makes what came from the fert rooms and geysers completely meaningless.

One oil well. ONE oil well makes enough oil for more than 30 generators to run with.  You would need to make several different boilers to keep up with that output.  The end game is still the same.  They just cut out the early mid game.

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SkunkMaster    192
25 minutes ago, 0xFADE said:

One oil well. ONE oil well makes enough oil for more than 30 generators to run with.  You would need to make several different boilers to keep up with that output.  The end game is still the same.  They just cut out the early mid game.

And the fact you only have to pour it straight onto a volcano, nothing more, to get all that gas...

suure, you would have to cool the gas, but with the amount of gas you get you could run 20 aquatuners and still have left over gas.. 

Only reason i ever bothered with the ngg loop was because it was EASY, simple and predictable, but really it was just lame...

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Lilalaunekuh    848
1 hour ago, TheExceed said:

Did I say bring back the old fert system? Not but they basically made it obsolete to even use them for any type of sustainable Ngas power.

Sounds right to me, why should there be a power plant using fertilizer synthesizers ?

(A main reason to run a fertilizer synthesizer shouldn´t be power, it should be fertilizer)

But I have the same concerns as @TheExceed depending the current state of other ("dupe-time-free") power sources.

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trukogre    235
2 hours ago, TheExceed said:

 
 

Don't quote me assuming you know exactly what I mean or am thinking. The old fer maker is "old and tired" to YOU. lol Doesn't mean it is to anyone and everyone else. Also, don't at me with the bs "if you don't like micromanagement find a new game" bc that's just childish.

I don't know exactly what you mean or what you're thinking, nor do I want to.  I responded to the words you wrote, and that's all I'm interested in responding to.   The old fert maker is old and tired in that most every base posted has a huge fert maker array feeding a huge NGG array; and in that the NGG has been mathematically OP for basically this game's entire history since beta release, handling not only your base's entire power need, but also its cooling requirements.  That's objective fact, whether you like it or not. Perhaps you would describe that state of affairs differently than 'old and tired' , that's nice, you do you.   If you don't like the game after the changes, that's on you, bro, but I love the changes.

 

edit: as other people have pointed out, the conversion from oil to ngas by boiling is still broken and needs fixing; but this fix gets us halfway there.

Edited by trukogre

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Technoincubus    284

oil fissure leak is the new fert.synth. Nat gas moved to crap tier of buildings, just like metal refinery after discovering a metal volcanoe. Which means now priority is to dig down to get oil, produce some plastic for traps and catch and breed dazillion of slicksters for oil production. Or go for oil well and see if you have rich water geysers.

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Carnis    122
10 minutes ago, Technoincubus said:

oil fissure leak is the new fert.synth. Nat gas moved to crap tier of buildings, just like metal refinery after discovering a metal volcanoe. Which means now priority is to dig down to get oil, produce some plastic for traps and catch and breed dazillion of slicksters for oil production. Or go for oil well and see if you have rich water geysers.

I'm planning an efficient oil boiler, and a smelter oil preheater is truly a precious thing. Same If you want a better output pW boiler you can run some of the water through a smelter for heat, that comes at a specific temperature depending on metal chosen.

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0xFADE    460
2 minutes ago, Carnis said:

I'm planning an efficient oil boiler, and a smelter oil preheater is truly a precious thing. Same If you want a better output pW boiler you can run some of the water through a smelter for heat, that comes at a specific temperature depending on metal chosen.

This exotic stuff is fun and very rewarding to finally get right.  Some people appear to hate this type of thing though.  Hating it so much that it has to be removed from the game.

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trukogre    235
36 minutes ago, 0xFADE said:

This exotic stuff is fun and very rewarding to finally get right.  Some people appear to hate this type of thing though.  Hating it so much that it has to be removed from the game.

Fun exotic stuff is cool.  NG magically having orders of magnitude more energy density than petroleum is ridiculous, however.  Especially because in reality, octane is almost twice as energy dense as methane.  So, crude oil boiling is Pro: cool emergent gameplay,Con: 1 completely unrealistic 2 gamebreakingly overpowered.  If that pro is worth those cons to you, I could understand that, cool emergent gameplay is pretty rad...but surely you can see why some people would think that Klei could remove those cons from the game and substitute some other reason to build a complicated boiler system comparable to the ngas boiler but without those two negatives?  Say...fixing the relative energy densities to be more realistic, which would satisfy all 3 conditions, it would fix the realism, fix the game balance, and still let you build exactly the same 'exotic stuff'.  Would you consider that a win/win, or are you actually more interested in breaking the game balance than in building the 'exotic stuff'?  My solution actually doesn't remove any 'exotic stuff' from the game, just to be clear :)

Edited by trukogre
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0xFADE    460
2 minutes ago, trukogre said:

Fun exotic stuff is cool.  NG magically having orders of magnitude more energy density than petroleum is ridiculous, however.  Especially because in reality, octane is almost twice as energy dense as methane.  So, crude oil boiling is Pro: cool emergent gameplay,Con: 1 completely unrealistic 2 gamebreakingly overpowered.  If that pro is worth those cons to you, I could understand that, cool emergent gameplay is pretty rad...but surely you can see why some people would think that Klei could remove those cons from the game and substitute some other reason to build a complicated boiler system comparable to the ngas boiler but without those two negatives?

Make the petroleum generator even better, and maybe remove the need for a dupe to run it.

The difficulty of the boiler turns from making natural gas to making petroleum instead.  It is a more precise operation and even more rewarding.

You don't have to solve everything with a sledgehammer.

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trukogre    235
6 minutes ago, 0xFADE said:

Make the petroleum generator even better, and maybe remove the need for a dupe to run it.

The difficulty of the boiler turns from making natural gas to making petroleum instead.  It is a more precise operation and even more rewarding.

You don't have to solve everything with a sledgehammer.

It sounds like we agree, nerf natural gas's energy density (and perhaps boost petroleums a bit as well) and people will make petroleum boilers, everyone's happy.  It was an oversight to give them such strange relative energy densities in the first place, imo.  (dupe operation isn't required for the petroleum generator btw, that's the refinery which you avoid using with a pet boiler, iirc)

Edited by trukogre

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WanderingKid    493
4 minutes ago, trukogre said:

It sounds like we agree, nerf natural gas's energy density (and perhaps boost petroleums a bit as well) and people will make petroleum boilers, everyone's happy.

A few more tweaks are needed past that simple idea.  Temperature gauges that will actually reach those heights, equipment that doesn't melt at those temperatures, and a few other things I'm sure I missed.  The significant pro for boiling Crude -> Methane was that you can move the gas which was in a different state to cooling climes without needing to be able to have equipment (liquid filters and the like) that can choose between the crude and the petro results in temperatures that said equipment melts itself at.

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trukogre    235
12 minutes ago, WanderingKid said:

A few more tweaks are needed past that simple idea.  Temperature gauges that will actually reach those heights, equipment that doesn't melt at those temperatures, and a few other things I'm sure I missed.  The significant pro for boiling Crude -> Methane was that you can move the gas which was in a different state to cooling climes without needing to be able to have equipment (liquid filters and the like) that can choose between the crude and the petro results in temperatures that said equipment melts itself at.

It sounds to me like the pro to boiling Crude -> Petrol is that it's harder than Crude -> methane which makes it even *more* exotic and fun ;), which echoes what 0xFade said, it's more 'precise' and thus more 'rewarding'.  :)  If you want an easy way to refine it, just use the prebuilt machine to do it.  Although, in all seriousness, I think those changes you mention were already going to happen eventually regardless.

Edited by trukogre

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0xFADE    460
26 minutes ago, trukogre said:

It sounds like we agree, nerf natural gas's energy density (and perhaps boost petroleums a bit as well) and people will make petroleum boilers, everyone's happy.  It was an oversight to give them such strange relative energy densities in the first place, imo.  (dupe operation isn't required for the petroleum generator btw, that's the refinery which you avoid using with a pet boiler, iirc)

I don't really care about their electricity generation.  I'd still use them if they only produced 90 watts.  I use them to turn natural gas in to polluted water, that very thing that was nerfed quite a bit by trying to address other issues of it.

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Technoincubus    284

Anyway, new build order seems to be:

1. Get coal gen chain for power supply

2. Dig up to water geysers

3. Build slectrolyzer system for oxygen supply

4. Build an exosuit forge and a checkpoint with some exosuits for dupes to descend to bottom hot biomes

5. Dig down to oil and produce some plastic for slickster traps.

6. Catch slicksters and breed them like hell for oil and potantial molten breed.

7. Establish a magmaboiling facility to boil oil to NG and switch from coal power to NG. 

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TheExceed    111
38 minutes ago, trukogre said:

It sounds like we agree, nerf natural gas's energy density (and perhaps boost petroleums a bit as well) and people will make petroleum boilers, everyone's happy.  It was an oversight to give them such strange relative energy densities in the first place, imo.  (dupe operation isn't required for the petroleum generator btw, that's the refinery which you avoid using with a pet boiler, iirc)

Then that system gets "old and tired" and we are back to nerfing power systems. Loool. 

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0xFADE    460

I'd just skip/change 5.  All you need to do is wait for one to lay an egg and breed that egg in a better location.  Getting a trap to work down there would be hard since it is likely to melt.

The whole co2 output got hella nerfed so who knows how many slicksters you can keep alive now.

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Technoincubus    284
13 minutes ago, 0xFADE said:

I'd just skip/change 5.  All you need to do is wait for one to lay an egg and breed that egg in a better location.  Getting a trap to work down there would be hard since it is likely to melt.

The whole co2 output got hella nerfed so who knows how many slicksters you can keep alive now.

Usually there are at least one CO2 geyser on a map, otherwise nat gas gens can produce quite enough CO2 forslicksters to be fed. Also, slicksters often get confined penalty and never lay an egg.

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0xFADE    460
8 minutes ago, Technoincubus said:

Usually there are at least one CO2 geyser on a map, otherwise nat gas gens can produce quite enough CO2 forslicksters to be fed. Also, slicksters often get confined penalty and never lay an egg.

Yeah.  I actually didn't get a co2 geyser this time.  The confined penalty is pretty bad for them but if you are not rushing down there the only ones left likely won't be confined and probably came from an egg.  The nat gens produce so little co2 now it is laughable.  I think you need a couple gens PER slickster now.

Also of note it seems like they added a swimming animation to slicksters.  I saw them in some wavy pose instead of the usual holding breath not moving while underwater animation.

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Flydo    150
11 hours ago, landromat said:

You can use seeds for compost now, so i don't think so

Really, it's really an improvement to use the huge amount of extra seed to make dirt again in my opinion, since the beginning i always finish with so many seed that i don't know what to do with it

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Alfons100    332
10 hours ago, BlueLance said:

An aquatuner is 1200W and that is a power negative. Sure the cooling is better than fertilizer. but still Power Negative.

 

Ehhh, everyone using the synths for gas kills variety. now people have to come up with something to keep up with their power demands. Not saying everyone uses it, but it is a make and forget.

Nerfing it is fair, as I said. The new specialized recipe for fertilizer is deeper. If you were to get massive amounts of PH2O you could use it for either power or clean water again as I’ve again, already said

Just that it is always a power negative streamlines its possible uses. Now it could give the same amount of natural gas as it used to maybe, now when it has more parts to create fertilizer/natural gas such as phosphorite and dirt. So it isn’t as easy to cheese an insane amount of power with very low Polluted water input which was why it was so desireable.

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Kabrute    1,070
3 minutes ago, Flydo said:

Really, it's really an improvement to use the huge amount of extra seed to make dirt again in my opinion, since the beginning i always finish with so many seed that i don't know what to do with it

Yeah it was nice to send my extra mealwood seed all to one compactor, then floor drop, then 1 click compost stack YAY!

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Alfons100    332
10 hours ago, 0xFADE said:

Gimmicks are what makes games fun.

Exactly, using waste water for a bit of power? Ranch shinebugs for power as well? *Trying* to use a metal volcano to heat up steam? Things like that.

 

Edit: Indirect solutions are more fun than the more straightforward ones. Such as heating up oil for natural gas or using waste for gas. To clarify.

Edited by Alfons100
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14 hours ago, Cheerio said:

Fertilizer maker is no longer a methane power producer, now it's a fertilizer producer with a specialized recipe

Welp now there is no reason to switch off coal power.

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Moggles    265

I don't understand the people who have one power supply and totally switching to another type.

I utilize all forms of power generator and I tune the whole system with smart batteries to determine the priority based on how abundant a particular resource is as geysers go in and out of dormancy.

Even when I go to coal early game I keep two hamster wheels as backup set to 10% threshold. I will always keep those coal gens too as a backup to whatever comes next.

Edited by Moggles
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