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Cheerio    2,665
  • Scaled down the thermal conductivity multiplier of radiant pipes. 
  • Fixed a bug where bottles being dropped by wash basins would get stuck in the air.

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jantonio    2,442
5 minutes ago, Cheerio said:
  • Scaled down the thermal conductivity multiplier of radiant pipes. 
  • Fixed a bug where bottles being dropped by wash basins would get stuck in the air.

 

View full update

 

you forgot to fix the build mode in sand box, it just makes the white outline and does not build it instant.

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JarrettM    143

There is a toggle next to the build menu which activates instant build mode. Is it not working even when this is set on?
We are going to make this set on by default.

InstantBuildToggle.PNG

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jantonio    2,442
24 minutes ago, JarrettM said:

There is a toggle next to the build menu which activates instant build mode. Is it not working even when this is set on?
We are going to make this set on by default.

InstantBuildToggle.PNG

ye, my bad did not know you had to click a object to see it. ty

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Alpe12    124
2 hours ago, Cheerio said:

Scaled down the thermal conductivity multiplier of radiant pipes. 

A little better, but still kinda broken.


Make your bets. Which liquid would be better to cool down petroleum that is 125,4C?

1) Naphtha with SHC of 2.191 and TC of 0.2.
or
2) Petroleum with SHC of 1.76 and TC of 2

Both at 23,1C.
image.thumb.jpeg.4c63f23fb0a1570808f326dced6d9a03.jpeg

Close one, but Naphtha is the winner, leaving the Petroleum at 64,8C vs 70.6C of the Petroleum (input).
The Naphtha in the output was 61,5C vs 73,1C of the Petroleum. But that can be explained by the SHC (maybe?).

Edited by Alpe12

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Lilalaunekuh    772

If you use both inputs at the same temperature, than your naphtha input has a higher thermal capacity and should win ALWAYS.

But i think i know your thoughts: Petroleum should cool "faster" and should need a smaller radiator to achiev the same.

=> If even 10 radiant pipe segements are enough to compensate that "faster" cooling, I would suggest some more fine tuning depending radiant (liquid) pipes. (Would love the idea of choosing a good cooling medium for each build and not just use "the" best one, which can tolerate the temperature there)

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Alpe12    124

My biggest problem is with the Thermal Conductivity that is 10x more in the petroleum, but because of the average with the pipes (made out of thungstein with 120 TC) it makes them both perform about the same (if we disconsider the difference that is caused by the SHC).
Naphtha = (0,2 + 120)/2 = 60,1
Petroleum = (2 + 120)/2 = 61
Too small of a difference for a material that has 10x more TC than the other.

While using geometric average:
Naphta = 4.8989794855664
Petroleum = 15.49193338483
Waaaaay more "real".

Edit: * IDK if it's the arithmetic average that is used. But I'm quite sure it's something similar to it.

Edited by Alpe12

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wachunga    143

You're not wrong vis a vis arithmetic average, but you do have to consider where the naptha and petroleum are coming from in the first place. With it's higher specific heat, naptha is more difficult to cool to 23.1 than petroleum. By starting at 23.1 for both you are effectively biasing the experiment in favor of naptha. 

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GemeinerJack    65

So to make it fair, naptha starts for example with  20 degrees and Petroleum with 24.8977... degress to give them both the same heat energy to begin with?

and that makes it better for petrol in which way?

It starts hotter and can take less heat energy before averaging out.

Edited by GemeinerJack

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Lilalaunekuh    772

The benefit of a good conducting liquid should be to minimize the size of the needed radiator.

So if radiant pipes are so good to begin with that even 10 pipe segements kill every possible benefit of a more conductive liquid.

 

4 minutes ago, GemeinerJack said:

So to make it fair, naptha starts for example with  20 degrees and Petroleum with 24.8977... degress to give them both the same heat energy to begin with?

Would suggest balancing the thermal energy by adjusting the mass not the temperature.

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w3amd    30

Tonights fix stated that there's a constant multiplier to radiant pipes. This is done to emulate thinness of the material in Thermal Conductivity in which the game doesn't normally calculate the area and length. I would suppose this number yesterday was 10 and is now 5. So the thermal conductivity of the tungsten pipe is actually around 600 and not 120. In the program it appears that TC is generally only J/K for each tile and for radiant pipes they added an additional factor of multiplication (~5)

Edited by w3amd

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Alpe12    124
5 minutes ago, w3amd said:

this number yesterday was 10 and is now 5.

Yeah. I retested what I had done below and it took about twice the length to hit the same temp.
For example: Before on pipe 5 the temp was 43,9C and now this temp was achieved in pipe 10 (I didn't saved the results this time, but from what I remember this is it).

 

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GemeinerJack    65
2 minutes ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

Would suggest balancing the thermal energy by adjusting the mass not the temperature.

1 g of Naptha stores 2.191 Joules per Kelvin

1 g of Petroleum stores 1.76 Joules per Kelvin

So you would need 0.2448863... g of Petrol extra

So for example 1000 kg Naptha and 1248.86 kg Petrol, both at 20° which takes longer to move trough the pipes.

I don't see the difference in this case, Naptha is still the superior coolant.

Okay, both should now be able to cool down the target to the same temperature, but Naptha needs less time/electricity etc for it.

And don't forget the Aquatuner to cool it back down: Constant -14° so naptha loses more energy per cycle.

The only benefit for petrol is that the aquatuner doesn't heat up as much for a single cooling (in the long run it would heat up even more because of the base heat production)

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w3amd    30

Because of the large favoring factor given to thermal conductivity it nullifies most of the difference in specific heat. It's all linear simple calcs which have drawbacks.

Edited by w3amd

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Lilalaunekuh    772
1 hour ago, Alpe12 said:


Naphtha = (0,2 + 120)/2 = 60,1
Petroleum = (2 + 120)/2 = 61
Too small of a difference for a material that has 10x more TC than the other.

While using geometric average:
Naphta = 4.8989794855664
Petroleum = 15.49193338483
 

Maybe the large favoring factor given to thermal conductivity is just a small difference with no real benefit

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llunak    78
7 hours ago, Cheerio said:
  • Scaled down the thermal conductivity multiplier of radiant pipes.

Could you please post a short summary of how all this thermal stuff works now? It'll be needed for the R2 stable release anyway, right? By this point I'm already quite confused by all the quick changes. And it's certainly not helping that it looks more like that you're throwing at us changes that seem more like you're trying to "fix" things by trying out various random ideas rather than a systematic approach (sorry, but that's what it feels like, and I haven't seen a single reaction in any form to any of the various posts about how things like arithmetic average are broken).

(And yeah, I'm a software developer too, so I know how annoying it can be to deal with raging hordes of unsatisfied users. I also know how it can be when those hordes feel completely ignored.)

7 hours ago, Cheerio said:
  • Fixed a bug where bottles being dropped by wash basins would get stuck in the air.

Thank you.

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Guest   
Guest

Are there still bugs with the biomes overheating/cooling down? I am not playing the game anymore until I am sure that is solved.

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w3amd    30
57 minutes ago, turbonl64 said:

Are there still bugs with the biomes overheating/cooling down? I am not playing the game anymore until I am sure that is solved.

I did a test tonight which shows thermal stuff is running good, decent, for a game.

2 hours ago, llunak said:

Could you please post a short summary of how all this thermal stuff works now? It'll be needed for the R2 stable release anyway, right? By this point I'm already quite confused by all the quick changes. And it's certainly not helping that it looks more like that you're throwing at us changes that seem more like you're trying to "fix" things by trying out various random ideas rather than a systematic approach (sorry, but that's what it feels like, and I haven't seen a single reaction in any form to any of the various posts about how things like arithmetic average are broken).

(And yeah, I'm a software developer too, so I know how annoying it can be to deal with raging hordes of unsatisfied users. I also know how it can be when those hordes feel completely ignored.)

Thank you.

I think the most important thing I can say here is a lot of the posts in the forum are wrong. Many people have assumed incorrectly the ONI game uses detailed physics calculations. There is simply not the calculation time in a fast paced game for these kind of detailed calculations. Klei has actually showed us on this patch that they are getting tighter on more detailed information and I hope this keeps the same direction. I complained and warned Klei bigtime in a post with over 5K views that they could quickly turn into a flop game by not getting tighter on quality control. I think Klei has two obvious people in this thread to consult with in the future for the expansion of their business.

 

Software Dev Engineer and Project Engineer. Sumitomo Cryogenics Of America, Inc. 16 years.

C++, C, PHP, ASM, HTML, OBDE, and SQL

Patents publicly listed.

John M Borchers AKA W3AMD Amateur Extra

Edited by w3amd
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3 hours ago, w3amd said:

I complained and warned Klei bigtime in a post with over 5K views that they could quickly turn into a flop game by not getting tighter on quality control. I think Klei has two obvious people in this thread to consult with in the future for the expansion of their business.

lol?!

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aymanoracle    19

the game is not fun any more

sooooooooo many bugs and crashes 

magma heat spreading and nothing to do to solve it

ice is melting 

really killing the game that abosolite is conducting heat

food consumption is not right

if those issues are not solved in the next release that is it for me i'm done playing this game for good

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CDoroFF    66
54 minutes ago, aymanoracle said:

the game is not fun any more

sooooooooo many bugs and crashes 

magma heat spreading and nothing to do to solve it

ice is melting 

really killing the game that abosolite is conducting heat

food consumption is not right

if those issues are not solved in the next release that is it for me i'm done playing this game for good

Actually there is no really critical bugs at the moment. In stable branch for sure. At beta (beta branch of alpha test btw! We should keep it in mind) I just started new game and nothing happens with an ice biomes after tenfolds of cycles. Correct temperature of abyssalite surrounding biomes perfectly protect it from melting. Insulated abyssalite tiles works same as usual abys.tiles from previous versions of a game. Drip cooling also fixed. Radiant pipes at the process of fixing and it's ok for new features. All the aforementioned issues are actual for old maps which was built in old circumstances base on old mechanics. The new one works fine, just try to start brand new base and taste it by yourself. At least check out this topic, i'v got similar results and just a littlebit more troubles with insulating than before.

 

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aymanoracle    19

thanks for the replay

i already try new map 

just use the debug mode and watch the temperature above the magma and in every ice area

it is not the same as before this update

you will see all the granete and diamonds around the magma reached over 200 c and the ice will melt after around 200 cycle 

and another annoying thing that most of the slicksters will die before you be able to make exosuits to reach them and that will be crisis for CO2 processing 

my opinion this release is unplayable and not fun anymore with just few new features 

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Kroning    26
27 minutes ago, aymanoracle said:

thanks for the replay

i already try new map 

just use the debug mode and watch the temperature above the magma and in every ice area

it is not the same as before this update

you will see all the granete and diamonds around the magma reached over 200 c and the ice will melt after around 200 cycle 

and another annoying thing that most of the slicksters will die before you be able to make exosuits to reach them and that will be crisis for CO2 processing 

my opinion this release is unplayable and not fun anymore with just few new features 

Please post a screenshot of melting ice area. I am very curious.

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KittenIsAGeek    1,081
4 hours ago, aymanoracle said:

thanks for the replay

i already try new map 

just use the debug mode and watch the temperature above the magma and in every ice area

it is not the same as before this update

you will see all the granete and diamonds around the magma reached over 200 c and the ice will melt after around 200 cycle 

and another annoying thing that most of the slicksters will die before you be able to make exosuits to reach them and that will be crisis for CO2 processing 

my opinion this release is unplayable and not fun anymore with just few new features 

I haven't had any problems like those you describe.  One one of my ice biomes is melting, but that's because its got a 500c PO2 geyser in it.  I do not have heat leaking in past any of my insulated tiles 

Also, until you reveal an area of a map, nothing happens there. At all.  Water doesn't fall, critters don't age, heat doesn't move.  You can verify this by pausing a long-running game, then using debug to remove the fog of war.  While its paused, you can see the whole map and see areas of water that are floating.

5ae51399107d2_Screenshotat2018-04-2818-34-59.png.eddaadca8a6b606dc32f859bd4394ba9.png

I didn't have any floating water this time, but I do have flying fish!

5ae51452a0a50_Screenshotat2018-04-2818-39-27.png.cb530dc76154e03eae25069fe5403c79.png

Edited by KittenIsAGeek
fixed formatting
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