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I know what you're probably thinking.

"Oh boy another buff Willow/Woodie thread where yet another bozo gives his idea of what needs to be done to fix them. Haven't seen one of those this week. Guess we're due"

But in actual fact that's not what this is about. It occurred to me that despite the near-constant posting of character rebalance threads in the past years or so almost nothing has changed. To begin, there is simply no denying the outcry the community has had asking for a rebalance that makes Willow and Woodie viable again yet we have received virtually nil in response, despite being the foundation of the game's active community. And that's what this is actually about, it's about why almost nothing changed. It's pretty obvious a significant amount of the community desires a buff for these characters, considering the literal hundreds of discussions, posts, arguments, name calling, and threads on the various platforms (steam, discord, youtube, and the forums), yet it seems as though all pleas have been, for the most part, utterly ignored and forgotten, resulting in the cycle never ending. 

Not only this, but the horrific disparage in balance between the characters had led to severe animosity and elitism within the community itself, spearheaded by a youtuber who shall remain unnamed all in defense of "the meta." The simple fact is that we have reached a point in the community where if you want to be involved, you have to be careful playing certain characters as your main otherwise you will face severe prejudice, potentially leading to more difficulty developing in the community. There is no way this helps encourage new players.

Maybe I'm just crazy right? Perhaps there has been changes made and I haven't noticed them. Well I decided to check and all I could find in terms of buffs was this:

  • At some point Willow's insanity freeze was nerfed so that it could only freeze her in winter without something else (woah what a MASSIVE buff)
  • Apparently they gave Willow a whole extra second of fire immunity at some point to before deciding that was too op and removing it
  • As far as I know the only buff woodie has received in DST is the ability to plant pinecones and birch nuts for sanity (actually halfway decent but completely out scaled by his nerfs)

These "buffs" are the equivalent of putting a band aid on a bullet wound.

So why has it only been this despite the near constant requests for change? Certainly Klei has seen at least some of the community who has been asking, even if they've actively attempted to ignore or quell posts regarding this subject.

Ok, so a significant amount of the community wants a buff and that nothing has been really done in earnest to sate this desire, perhaps there's some excellent reasoning as to why we don't actually need the buff. Certainly there's something we're collectively missing here, that actually makes the character imbalance justifiable? In that case let's examine the top arguments in defense of leaving things the way they are now.

Griefing

(this argument relates to Willow specifically). I can hear it now. But if we buff Willow griefers are gonna have a field day! We can't let that happen! In actual fact this argument holds no weight simply because while Willow is slightly better for griefing, any character can craft a torch and burn down everything. 

I mean the nerf placed on Willow has worked so well after all anyways, am I right? Wait no actually it hasn't quelled griefing at all, and it still runs rampant as exemplified by the recent dedicated klei server takeovers. As it turns out, not all griefing even bothers with fire, there's more options than just that. The short of it is that griefing didn't justify the initial nerfing, and still doesn't justify.

Protecting "The Meta"

It is an unfortunate truth that the community struggles with severe animosity and hate developed from the imbalance in the characters. Despite this, there are those who would argue Klei need not touch character balance because it might upset the precious meta that they've worked hard to dominate the game's community with. I'd suggest that this argument is flawed in the sense that it is foremost inherently unethical, and secondly this thread is more about buffing characters that are at a current severe disadvantage, not nerfing those already on top of the pyramid. Sure it might weaken the most powerful characters by comparison, but it would be nice to not be called a r******* ape for playing my main for a change.

It's not necessary...

This is a pretty uncommon argument, not gonna lie, even generally the most elitist player admits that a buff would be in order, and then goes on generally laughing as they know nothing will even actually be done. However, I have heard this said before, and I'm going to address it. Generally out of the people who make this argument are not super involved or simply don't understand the situation (they often play the OP characters and can't really see the issue from their ivory tower). The truth is something needs to be done, the current disparage is massive, and while I certainly expect nothing to actually come of this thread (it'll likely be thrown on the pile and ignored), it's important as a community we continually call this out.

Another variant of this is "It's just a game, calm down." There is an important distinction to be made here, I'm well aware that this is a game and that it has no tangible impact on real life if Willow and Woodie, two fictional characters, are never buffed. However I love this game and want the absolute best for it, so if I see a problem, I'm going to call it out and say something because I desire a well balanced game. Not to mention it does get kinda discouraging when you're put down for your main repeatedly because they're "useless" (as stated by others).

Sure the Community might be requesting it but is it really a good idea?

My response to this is as follows: 

Yes, and if you don't agree just compare the characters currently.

Just use Mods, K?

How would you feel if your main required mods, which are often laughed out in the community as de-legitimizing, just to be played on par with the other characters? What does this say about the balancing if this is one of the current major arguments? What if I told you that mods are often poorly made, buggy, or don't truly encapsulate a healthy buff?

Conclusions

Honestly, I'm aware jack diddly is gonna come of this thread but the community needs to continually keep requesting it. This was not a "bash klei thread" and if you think that then I must have used poor word choice. It's more just calling out an issue I've seen in the game that still hasn't been fixed, and desperately needs change. The flaw's effects have unfortunately taken root but I legitimately believe it is not too late to repair and rebalance Willow and Woodie. As for what that looks like, it's on Klei to really decide what should be done, however I've outlined my own suggestions in another thread. 

Link:

If you see any inaccuracies in this post (it's a long one so there's likely to be something) just let me know and I can adjust.

Finally, what are your thoughts?

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Could be a couple reasons why they refuse to buff the obviously underpowered anymore.

 

- Their director got tired of it and refuses to allow it anymore

- They think the characters are actually balanced

- They're stubborn and refuse to admit they're wrong

- There isn't any time in their schedule to do it

- They stand by the decisions they made in the first place

 

But yeah regardless, Willow needs to be immune to fire, Werebeaver needs to have combat advantages, Shadow Duelists need to have more health or armor and Winona needs to actually be creative.

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6 minutes ago, Korlie said:

Could be a couple reasons why they refuse to buff the obviously underpowered anymore.

 

- Their director got tired of it and refuses to allow it anymore

- They think the characters are actually balanced

- They're stubborn and refuse to admit they're wrong

- There isn't any time in their schedule to do it

- They stand by the decisions they made in the first place

 

But yeah regardless, Willow needs to be immune to fire, Werebeaver needs to have combat advantages, Shadow Duelists need to have more health or armor and Winona needs to actually be creative.

Yeah there's a lot of unfortunate possibilities beyond our control. I'm aware that honestly this thread will probably be ignored like the rest.

On another note I'll give my opinion on Woodie once I've properly researched his character. Admittedly I know that he needs a buff, but haven't researched his mechanics thoroughly to determine what this would consist of.

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I don't have time for a long detailed response so I will bring up a few points to hopefully further discussion.

10 minutes ago, Mr.Mulk said:

Not only this, but the horrific disparage in balance between the characters had led to severe animosity and elitism within the community itself, spearheaded by a youtuber who shall remain unnamed all in defense of "the meta." The simple fact is that we have reached a point in the community where if you want to be involved, you have to be careful playing certain characters as your main otherwise you will face severe prejudice, potentially leading to more difficulty developing in the community. There is no way this helps encourage new players.

So why has it only been this despite the near constant requests for change? Certainly Klei has seen at least some of the community who has been asking, even if they've actively attempted to ignore or quell posts regarding this subject.

Protecting "The Meta"

It is an unfortunate truth that the community struggles with severe animosity and hate developed from the imbalance in the characters. Despite this, there are those who would argue Klei need not touch character balance because it might upset the precious meta that they've worked hard to dominate most of the game's community with. I'd suggest that this argument is flawed in the sense that it is foremost inherently unethical, and secondly this thread is more about buffing characters that are at a current severe disadvantage, not nerfing those already on top of the pyramid. Sure it might weaken the most powerful characters by comparison, but it would be nice to not be called a r******* ape for playing my main for a change.

No. Its not a disparage between the characters balance that is causing this toxicity. Its the players them self causing this toxicity. Lieutenant Volx is a pretty friendly DST streamer despite the fact the characters may have massive unbalances compared to others. Even if the characters were more comparable to each other in balance this doesn't prevent the toxicity. Toxic people will still remain toxic and judge others for how they enjoy playing the game regardless of how balanced it is.

There are plenty of friendly people who play DST, Stream the game and produce video content or make mods for the game. There are also plenty of friendly people who willingly admin servers to provide you a better DST experience. I would suggest ignoring toxic players who want you to play the game as dictated by them and surrounding yourself with more friendly individuals who enjoy the game.

16 minutes ago, Mr.Mulk said:

So why has it only been this despite the near constant requests for change? Certainly Klei has seen at least some of the community who has been asking, even if they've actively attempted to ignore or quell posts regarding this subject.

Ok, so the majority of the community wants a buff and that nothing has been really done in earnest to sate this desire, perhaps there's some excellent reasoning as to why we don't actually need the buff. Certainly there's something we're collectively missing here, that actually makes the character imbalance justifiable? In that case let's examine the top arguments in defense of leaving things the way they are now.

 

That thread you linked has around 10 likes. A quick check of Steamspy says the game has around 348077 unique players in the last two weeks. Do you have another source showing a larger demand for rebalances? Even better one suggesting a legitimate actual majority (174039 players or more) want rebalances to characters? If you don't then it doesn't sound like much demand at all, let alone a majority of players, actually want rebalances to characters.

Here is a link to Steamspy for those curious about stats. https://steamspy.com/app/322330

24 minutes ago, Mr.Mulk said:
  •  

Just use Mods, K?

How would you feel if your main required mods, which are often laughed out in the community as de-legitimizing, just to be played on par with the other characters? What does this say about the balancing if this is one of the current major arguments? What if I told you that mods are often poorly made, buggy, or don't truly encapsulate a healthy buff?

Then get involved with one of the many rebalance mod projects undergoing development. Klei does value your feedback but there are plenty of modders who would love your input in their project. If you feel like many mods are poorly made and don't encapsulate a healthy buff why not get involved with one and improve it? Whats stopping you from making one yourself?

Its great that you care about the game and want to help Klei improve it. Mods can do exactly this. Even if it doesn't get added to the game directly it gives Klei information they can use for future development which is extremely valuable.

 

Again its great you care about the game and no disrespect to you but I think the work you put into these posts doesn't accomplish much and that effort spent on these could be spent on more productive things. Its ultimately your decision if you feel its worthwhile to continue these types of posts.

Also if you do make more posts like this you need better math and sources. If you are suggesting a "Majority" of players want rebalances to characters then you really should have legitimate math to back up your claim if you want anyone to take you seriously. I would suggest looking at multiple balance mods for characters (that you think are reasonably well made) and looking at the subscriber count would be a good starting point for your future endeavors. =)

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21 minutes ago, Dreamscape18459 said:

No. Its not a disparage between the characters balance that is causing this toxicity. Its the players them self causing this toxicity. Lieutenant Volx is a pretty friendly DST streamer despite the fact the characters may have massive unbalances compared to others. Even if the characters were more comparable to each other in balance this doesn't prevent the toxicity. Toxic people will still remain toxic and judge others for how they enjoy playing the game regardless of how balanced it is.

Are you suggesting that the obvious disparage between character balance has not had any substantial impact on the community's toxicity? Have you seen the videos regarding character tiers lists, or the discussions that follow? Look I get it, there's always going to be toxic people, but we've had a special type of elitism form from the imbalance that hasn't been addressed.

21 minutes ago, Dreamscape18459 said:

That thread you linked has around 10 likes. A quick check of Steamspy says the game has around 348077 unique players in the last two weeks. Do you have another source showing a larger demand for rebalances? Even better one suggesting a legitimate actual majority (174039 players or more) want rebalances to characters? If you don't then it doesn't sound like much demand at all, let alone a majority of players, actually want rebalances to characters.

Here is a link to Steamspy for those curious about stats. https://steamspy.com/app/322330

 

If you don't agree with my claim you can just put the term "Willow" into the search bar for topics on the forums and see what I mean. This isn't even including steam or discord posts on the subject, not to mention that there are even youtube videos discussing the subject. EDIT: as it turns out a lot of people don't properly tag their posts on the forums so it gets lost. You can still see a lot though with just a general search.

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.ba94046205d933dd8dc601a39c2cc083.pngimage.png.48b33a825f87fd8ed65c1c9fcc158ba1.png I mean the results kinda speak for themselves. Not suggesting all are relevant, but it's definitely a major deal in the DST community. Also no idea what that reddit post is on about, she's still nerfed into oblivion.

21 minutes ago, Dreamscape18459 said:

Then get involved with one of the many rebalance mod projects undergoing development. Klei does value your feedback but there are plenty of modders who would love your input in their project. If you feel like many mods are poorly made and don't encapsulate a healthy buff why not get involved with one and improve it? Whats stopping you from making one yourself?

I'd love to but I have a career, College, and don't know the first thing about coding. Also the fact that there are so many character rebalance mods focused on Woodie and Willow should probably be an indication of the community's feelings on the subject. I mean no offense but it kinda feels like you're putting the imbalance as my fault, and suggesting it's my job to fix it when I've already got my hands full.

No disrespect is meant by any of this, it's an open forum for discussion, but I do disagree with your skepticism on the issue I've presented.

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Dude, I've been playing primarily Werebeaver/Woodie and I've made at least 4 posts solely on the matter of getting Klei to make the character fun again.  I've gotten a lot of commentary from a lot of people over that time, usual result is people want change for Woodie, Willow, and maybe Winona.  Klei people responded to the first one, never got anything afterwards.  I really want them to rework Werebeaver to be useful/fun, but I've accepted his fate as trash at this point. 

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Just now, Mario384 said:

Dude, I've been playing primarily Werebeaver/Woodie and I've made at least 4 posts solely on the matter of getting Klei to make the character fun again.  I've gotten a lot of commentary from a lot of people usual result is people want change for Woodie, Willow, and maybe Winona.  Klei people responded to the first one, never got anything afterwards.  I really want them to rework Werbeaver to be useful/fun, but I've accepted his fate as trash at this point. 

That hits home man, I feel you. Everytime I've seen a "buff Willow/Woodie" thread go absolutely no where and get buried it's a little spirit crushing not gonna lie. I understand that as a community we won't shut up about it and Klei is probably super annoyed, but there's a reason we keep going on about it.

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Willow nerf made no sense. Torches are cheap, anyone can grief. Lighter durability doesn't stop this.

Woodie would be better if he was closer to his singleplayer form. Maybe you can restrict the Werebeaver to wood chopping but he needs his environmental protection. Just singleplayer mode werebeaver but you can die as him when the log meter reaches 0.

 

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Let me take you for a trip down memory lane.

To my (highly unreliable) knowledge, there have only ever been three updates that had character ‘rebalances’.

One was a miscellaneous update during the early days of Don’t Starve that turned Willow, Wendy, and Wolfgang into characters that weren’t beardless Wilsons,

The second was the Strange New Powers update, which completely reworked most of the characters to make them much more interesting to play.

Finally, another miscellaneous update during the early days of DST that reworked some of the characters (for better or for worse)

If this tells us anything, it’s that Klei really doesn’t like doing random character balances time to time. And the fact that there have only been 3 of these ‘rebalances’  in the 5 something years that Don’t Starve’s been around, I wouldn’t expect anything from Klei anytime soon.

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10 minutes ago, Naveil said:

I wouldn’t expect anything from Klei anytime soon.

Yep. I can respect not wanting to change their characters too much, it's not generally a good practice, but I'd say we're well overdue for a buff for Willow/Woodie by now. I didn't really go into the reasons why a buff is needed in this post just because I can let the other posts do that, this is just more for why has Klei been silent for seemingly so long, considering it really doesn't seem like this should be so difficult.

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9 minutes ago, Naveil said:

Let me take you for a trip down memory lane.

To my (highly unreliable) knowledge, there have only ever been three updates that had character ‘rebalances’.

One was a miscellaneous update during the early days of Don’t Starve that turned Willow, Wendy, and Wolfgang into characters that weren’t beardless Wilsons,

The second was the Strange New Powers update, which completely reworked most of the characters to make them much more interesting to play.

Finally, another miscellaneous update during the early days of DST that reworked some of the characters (for better or for worse)

If this tells us anything, it’s that Klei really doesn’t like doing random character balances time to time. And the fact that there have only been 3 of these ‘rebalances’  in the 5 something years that Don’t Starve’s been around, I wouldn’t expect anything from Klei anytime soon.

Actually, there's been more, but certainly not as noticeable.  The werebeaver received tuning when Woodie was released, and Willow received multiple updates.  Also note that they and other characters were modified before being put into DST.

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25 minutes ago, Mr.Mulk said:

Are you suggesting that the obvious disparage between character balance has not had any substantial impact on the community's toxicity? Have you seen the videos regarding character tiers lists, or the discussions that follow? Look I get it, there's always going to be toxic people, but we've had a special type of elitism form from the imbalance that hasn't been addressed.

Elitists who want to exert their superiority over others will always find a way to do so, character imbalances are irrelevant. Some games with imbalances have led to mirroring settings to not provide one player with an advantage to help prove their superiority over others. Even if "noobs" played good characters like Wicker/Wendy/Etc and abstained from weaker characters like Willow/Wes Elitists would still try to prove their superiority in playing Wickerbottom than other less experienced Wickerbottom players.

We can talk about this more but it must be through another channel. Adding me on Steam would be the best place for further conversation. I will accept unless your name is different from your Klei forum username since lots of scammers/bots add me.

45 minutes ago, Mr.Mulk said:

If you don't agree with my claim you can just put the term "Willow" into the search bar for topics on the forums and see what I mean. This isn't even including steam or discord posts on the subject, not to mention that there are even youtube videos discussing the subject. EDIT: as it turns out a lot of people don't properly tag their posts on the forums so it gets lost. You can still see a lot though with just a general search.

  Reveal hidden contents

image.thumb.png.ba94046205d933dd8dc601a39c2cc083.pngimage.png.48b33a825f87fd8ed65c1c9fcc158ba1.png I mean the results kinda speak for themselves. Not suggesting all are relevant, but it's definitely a major deal in the DST community. Also no idea what that reddit post is on about, she's still nerfed into oblivion.

 

No. You made a claim the majority of players want rebalances. You should provide the math to back that claim up. As you said you are busy but if 50 people browse this thread than all 50 need to find the math themselves. Many posters simply won't have that time and even if they did that is potential time they could have been creating quality feedback. You providing the math free's up more time for said 50 people (who are also busy) to comment on your thread should they so choose. If I was looking up math for rebalances right now this post wouldn't exist.

50 minutes ago, Mr.Mulk said:

I'd love to but I have a career, College, and don't know the first thing about coding. Also the fact that there are so many character rebalance mods focused on Woodie and Willow should probably be an indication of the community's feelings on the subject. I mean no offense but it kinda feels like you're putting the imbalance as my fault, and suggesting it's my job to fix it when I've already got my hands full.

No disrespect is meant by any of this, it's an open forum for discussion, but I do disagree with your skepticism on the issue I've presented.

My apologies this was not the message I intended to convey. You don't need to know how to code or do art stuff to have valuable skills that pertain to a mod. Judging from your posts you care about the characters balance. That's valuable. Extremely valuable. That's something valuable that many others don't have. Look at Garry's mod or Skyrim's workshop. Each mod published for other game's is a mod not published on Don't Starve's workshop. These modders care about other game's but this care come's at a cost of not caring about Don't Starve. To any modder who care's about Don't Starve you are a much more valuable asset than any workshop creator on other games because you have something that they don't. (A passion for Don't Starve's balance.) As you said you are really busy. You have work and college. Despite this you care enough about the game to create, and put effort into your replies, in threads like this. That's more care than many others (who don't care enough about the game to view this thread) will ever care about the game's balance.

Sorry if my initial post came off a bit hostile; it was not intended to be. I just get mad when someone claims that they don't have valuable skills when in actuality they do. I just think you are undervaluing yourself quite a bit and I feel that your skills (a passion for Don't Starve) are so valuable to modding (and game development in general) that they are being wasted by not being part of a modding team. Not everyone needs to have coding or art skills to be a valuable asset to a modding team. Again this is just my opinion but I feel any Don't Starve mod project would greatly benefit from you being involved in its development. Its ultimately your decision what you want to do. If you feel using your skills (a passion for the game and ability to write fairly well, both skills not everyone possesses) would be better put to use making threads like this then please continue making them. Your effort can only help create a better game. Anyway I appreciate the time you took to create these posts and for replying to me.

 

Also just because Klei doesn't respond to feedback doesn't mean they don't listen. From personal experience anything that you create will be read and it will influence the direction the game takes in the future.

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1 minute ago, Dreamscape18459 said:

Also just because Klei doesn't respond to feedback doesn't mean they don't listen. From personal experience anything that you create will be read and it will influence the direction the game takes in the future.

Spoiler

*Cough* Warly *Cough*

Also, rezecib did a wonderful rebalance mod.

If you want the math and such, I recommend pinging them here. :wilson_goodjob:

Because iirc, they know ALL the math.

Spoiler

(it's actually kinda scary...and hardcore! hats off to you, rezecib *Tips Cap*)

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Dreamscape18459 said:

character imbalances are irrelevant. 

I mentioned this previously, and I'll say it again. I agree that there will always be toxic people, all I'm suggesting is the character imbalance has exacerbated this categorical elitism. I think you can easily identify several famous people who exemplify the character hierarchy that has formed from the meta and the negative consequences it has had.

13 minutes ago, Dreamscape18459 said:

No. You made a claim the majority of players want rebalances. You should provide the math to back that claim up. As you said you are busy but if 50 people browse this thread than all 50 need to find the math themselves. Many posters simply won't have that time and even if they did that is potential time they could have been creating quality feedback. You providing the math free's up more time for said 50 people (who are also busy) to comment on your thread should they so choose. If I was looking up math for rebalances right now this post wouldn't exist.

This is a fair critique, I understand what you're saying now. I'll edit the original post to be more reflective of the reality without statistics. However, I would counter saying that it seemed pretty obvious to me, and a lot of the large group of DS/DST players I connect with on a regular basis, to the point where I just assumed this is the norm. With that being said it certainly does not invalidate the purpose of the post itself though.

18 minutes ago, Dreamscape18459 said:

We can talk about this more but it must be through another channel. Adding me on Steam would be the best place for further conversation. I will accept unless your name is different from your Klei forum username since lots of scammers/bots add me.

I'm aware that's an option but I think the forums are the perfect place for this type of discussion, it's designed for the open thought of the community to be placed in an easily renderable format for Klei (hypothetically), as well as individual members.

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The main problem seems to stem from there hasn't been ANY RESPONSE OF ANY KIND from Klei on most threads that have suggestions or complaints. (Ever notice how "Suggestions and Feedback" is a desert and how most suggestions and feedback wind up in general? It's because people like to have a response, or at least the idea that someone read it. In fact I'm starting to wonder why that page exists anymore...)

Now I know that'd take a lot of time to do, but if Klei were to just hire, say, someone that actually leafs through threads and gives some form of reply (I mean, even a simple "Oh yeah I read this, we'll think about it") that'd set a more positive state of mind for the community.

Yes, Klei does typically read a lot of threads, but it'd be better if there was a shown "Yeah we read it" rather than "Assume we might've read it"

Maybe even something as simple as a little badge that says "Read by staff member" by the title or something.

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3 minutes ago, Auth said:

The main problem seems to stem from there hasn't been ANY RESPONSE OF ANY KIND from Klei on most threads that have suggestions or complaints. (Ever notice how "Suggestions and Feedback" is a desert and how most suggestions and feedback wind up in general? It's because people like to have a response, or at least the idea that someone read it. In fact I'm starting to wonder why that page exists anymore...)

Now I know that'd take a lot of time to do, but if Klei were to just hire, say, someone that actually leafs through threads and gives some form of reply (I mean, even a simple "Oh yeah I read this, we'll think about it") that'd set a more positive state of mind for the community.

Yes, Klei does typically read a lot of threads, but it'd be better if there was a shown "Yeah we read it" rather than "Assume we might've read it"

Maybe even something as simple as a little badge that says "Read by staff member" by the title or something.

Even just a flat out "no, stop talking about this" would be better in all honesty. At least then I'd be able to accept that nothing was going to be done and that there was nothing I could do about it.

 

Just now, DatShadowJK said:

This post is great. You have legitimately lined out your reasons for why, and I agree with some. They should get buffs so elitists don't s*** on them for being terrible 

Thanks! :D

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What's more ridiculous about Klei's logic is that the characters they nerfed weren't even powerful to begin with, they were just quirky.

Willow even with all her un-nerfed abilities still doesn't match up to WX, Wigfrid, Wolfgang, Wendy or Wickerbottom in terms of active effectiveness. Because all Willow's abilities were utility or situational. Her fire immunity was the closest thing she had to match up to them since she could use it to stand ontop of fires and lure mobs into them. And even that is extremely niche in terms of its uses. Yet she already had panic fires, which are way more punishing then any of the negative perks all the powerful characters have despite her not being nearly as powerful even in her prime.

Woodie was pretty much the same, sanity from planting trees and extra chopping speed are good utility but they don't win the game. Then his Werebeaver form had disadvantages and quirky advantages, and its combat advantages were the closest Woodie came to having an ability that matched up to all the powerful characters. Combat Werebeaver doesn't actually match up at all, but it at least put him on the charts in terms of being able to defend himself.

 

Willow's fire immunity had virtually nothing to actually do with griefing, and Woodie's combat Werebeaver had nothing do with anything yet both got nerfed and its why the characters are so lackluster is because Klei took away the only powerful-ish abilities they actually had; which was their combat abilities. So all they are left with is quirky utility, which doesn't remotely measure up to 2x damage, 400 base stats or mass mob killing. And it's not even about competing with the meta, it's about how interesting they are to play as. Fire immunity and combat Werebeaver are actually interesting gameplay elements, certainly more interesting then what most of the powerful characters can do.

It's the same problem with Maxwell is that Maxwell's only combat ability, his duelists, are underpowered which has a huge impact on his playability when combat is so important in the game both in terms of survival and just having fun. So what can Maxwell do, he can gather resources really fast. That may be meta but it doesn't actually make the game more fun, shadow duelists that don't die in four hits would.

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12 minutes ago, Mr.Mulk said:

Even just a flat out "no, stop talking about this" would be better in all honesty. At least then I'd be able to accept that nothing was going to be done and that there was nothing I could do about it.

 

Thanks! :D

We would never say that. 

Everybody knows what we're working on right now. And when we're done with that, we'll be working on something else. I don't know what that is, so discussions like this go a long way to help us prioritize things when we decide what we're doing next. 

We know there are a lot of people who want character rebalances. We also know there are a lot of people who are happy with the way they are. 

I don't think you're putting enough thought into how big of a change an entire rebalance on characters is and how much that would affect literally everybody who plays the game, those who want changes and those who don't. Believe it or not, that takes a lot of work, and when most people are fine with it the way it is, it really has to be justifiable work. So it would need to be really cool and for a good reason. 

If you haven't thought about it, during The Forge, we played around and tried some things with character abilities and roles and we'll be doing something with the Big Event #2 as well. While those aren't permanent, they do let us experiment in interesting ways. 

I think the way we have thought of all of this is that if you don't like something, you can mod it. That's why a significant amount of effort was put into modding. I understand that some people don't feel that mods are a good solution because they aren't official. However, I believe it does go a long way to show us how people feel about what they want in the game.

All that being said, after Big Event #2, we'll regroup and see if there are changes we believe are worth making. 

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4 minutes ago, JoeW said:

We would never say that. 

Everybody knows what we're working on right now. And when we're done with that, we'll be working on something else. I don't know what that is, so discussions like this go a long way to help us prioritize things when we decide what we're doing next. 

We know there are a lot of people who want character rebalances. We also know there are a lot of people who are happy with the way they are. 

I don't think you're putting enough thought into how big of a change an entire rebalance on characters is and how much that would affect literally everybody who plays the game, those who want changes and those who don't. Believe it or not, that takes a lot of work, and when most people are fine with it the way it is, it really has to be justifiable work. So it would need to be really cool and for a good reason. 

If you haven't thought about it, during The Forge, we played around and tried some things with character abilities and roles and we'll be doing something with the Big Event #2 as well. While those aren't permanent, they do let us experiment in interesting ways. 

I think the way we have thought of all of this is that if you don't like something, you can mod it. That's why a significant amount of effort was put into modding. I understand that some people don't feel that mods are a good solution because they aren't official. However, I believe it does go a long way to show us how people feel about what they want in the game.

All that being said, after Big Event #2, we'll regroup and see if there are changes we believe are worth making. 

Foremost I appreciate the response, it is incredibly relieving to hear that these posts are still being read and at the very least thought over.

As to the specifics of what you're saying I understand that even seemingly minor character tweaks can have a shockwave impact and lots of unintended consequences. However, I do genuinely believe we've reached a point where a buff to the character's Willow and Woodie would be completely acceptable and benefit the community as a whole. I'm not suggesting that they're currently useless, no character is useless, however it is obvious that they lag behind the other characters in terms of abilities and synergies. I may only be one person, but I feel as though I do not stand alone in this opinion.

As for it being for a justifiable reason I'd cite the vitriol that I've unfortunately witnessed in the community as a major part of my stance. I've encountered some pretty nasty people, and while there will always be nasty people (no matter what) certainly having a buff for willow and woodie would help, due to a lot of it being based on character comparison. Sure, in any multiplayer game people are gonna always argue over "what character is best" but here we have a situation where it's more damage control for those that main the nerfed characters.

Finally I understand it'd take a lot of work. It's pretty easy to stand on the sidelines and make suggestions, but actual implementation is a whole nother game. It's just something I've been concerned about since the nerf and would like to see fixed is all. To sum it up I really do appreciate the response though it actually made my day :D and I'm excited to see what is in store in the future for them!

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29 minutes ago, JoeW said:

I don't think you're putting enough thought into how big of a change an entire rebalance on characters is and how much that would affect literally everybody who plays the game, those who want changes and those who don't. Believe it or not, that takes a lot of work, and when most people are fine with it the way it is, it really has to be justifiable work. So it would need to be really cool and for a good reason. 

You say "an entire rebalance on characters" as if you'd be overhauling them all from the ground up. It's literally one specific tweak for Woodie, Willow and Maxwell that are the primary concerns. Winona is the one you'd be entirely rebalancing. This isn't a PvP game though, the changes you make to characters aren't going to have that much of an impact since 95%+ of the time people are playing together and not against eachother. So if something becomes overpowered, it'll get abused but not against other people. And the changes that are generally being asked for, are not remotely overpowered. Unless you gave the Shadow Duelists 1000 damage and 10000 health or something. Woodie and Willow weren't overpowered to begin with, so reverting them back has no actual chance of making them overpowered since they weren't to begin with.

I've not seen very many people who think Woodie, Winona, Willow and the Shadow Duelists are fine the way they are. You bring up "most people are fine with it the way it is" as if the people who are fine with these characters are a majority. I've never seen that, unless you consider silence as acceptance in which case 90% of the DST community is fine with everything.

You sound incredibly hyper-cautious to act, which is good for avoiding making mistakes but it also makes you much slower to fix mistakes when you do make them.

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38 minutes ago, Korlie said:

Willow even with all her un-nerfed abilities still doesn't match up to WX, Wigfrid, Wolfgang, Wendy or Wickerbottom in terms of active effectiveness. 

Well there actually is one thing Willow can do in DS that other characters can't easily do. She's able to light items in her inventory on fire giving her a dps fire aura that acts as a constant AoE attack. It's super helpful even late game and let's you stack up large amounts of damage, however at a relatively high cost of fuel and risk of destroying everything. It was very well balanced and in my opinion just the re-inclusion of this one mechanic for her would immediately make her viable again, although it may be a hasty thing to do.

Video explanation:

I do agree though that the nerfs did seem to be on characters who didn't wholly deserve it, really they could have left them more alone and that would have sufficed.

I did however recently change my mind on sanity freezing. After a discussion with a gentlemen on the forums I now understand why it replaced nervous firemaking. Because of this I don't truly stick to the "total reversion" ideal but instead a replacement of nervous fires with the insanity freeze. I would like to see inventory burning come back though, along with fire immunity at the very least.

Woodie and Winona aren't my field of expertise however I will certainly be researching them to see what both I think and the community appears to desire

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1 hour ago, Mr.Mulk said:

I'm aware that's an option but I think the forums are the perfect place for this type of discussion, it's designed for the open thought of the community to be placed in an easily renderable format for Klei (hypothetically), as well as individual members.

I was referring to talking about Toxic players as I don't feel a public forum is the best place to discuss this. Nearly anything else I am open to discussing.

 

1 hour ago, Mr.Mulk said:

This is a fair critique, I understand what you're saying now. I'll edit the original post to be more reflective of the reality without statistics. However, I would counter saying that it seemed pretty obvious to me, and a lot of the large group of DS/DST players I connect with on a regular basis, to the point where I just assumed this is the norm. With that being said it certainly does not invalidate the purpose of the post itself though.

Yeah the biggest concern regarding everyone having the "same opinion" is we might be in an echo chamber that does not necessarily reflect the desires of the majority of the community. This is partially why I linked Steamspy and suggested checking out the workshop as they are separate sources and not part of the (possible) echo chamber we may be in.

Edit: Actually Reddit might be a good place for balance discussion if you have not posted there yet. I don't check the Don't Starve reddit so maybe it is not a good place for discussion but its probably worth a try.

The feedback of the forums is valuable for discussion but only utilizing select channels for feedback can be hostile to legitimate discussion/game development.

Again thanks for taking the time to reply and read my post. I enjoyed the discussion and found it helpful and hopefully you have as well.

38 minutes ago, JoeW said:

We would never say that. 

Everybody knows what we're working on right now. And when we're done with that, we'll be working on something else. I don't know what that is, so discussions like this go a long way to help us prioritize things when we decide what we're doing next. 

We know there are a lot of people who want character rebalances. We also know there are a lot of people who are happy with the way they are. 

I don't think you're putting enough thought into how big of a change an entire rebalance on characters is and how much that would affect literally everybody who plays the game, those who want changes and those who don't. Believe it or not, that takes a lot of work, and when most people are fine with it the way it is, it really has to be justifiable work. So it would need to be really cool and for a good reason. 

If you haven't thought about it, during The Forge, we played around and tried some things with character abilities and roles and we'll be doing something with the Big Event #2 as well. While those aren't permanent, they do let us experiment in interesting ways. 

I think the way we have thought of all of this is that if you don't like something, you can mod it. That's why a significant amount of effort was put into modding. I understand that some people don't feel that mods are a good solution because they aren't official. However, I believe it does go a long way to show us how people feel about what they want in the game.

All that being said, after Big Event #2, we'll regroup and see if there are changes we believe are worth making. 

I can't speak for everyone but I would love more developer insight into the design of the game. Sometimes the developers do share some stuff on Twitch but its been years since we had a "Fireside chat" with the developers. The last one was in 2015. Here are some things that I would find interesting to know.

Why did the developers choose to make The Forge more combat focused while shaving the survival elements from the game? What decisions led to this in the first place? What are some of the failed experiments the team tried that were ultimately cut but helped make the Forge what it was on launch?

I don't think anyone knows exactly what goes on being the scenes at Klei but it would be nice to learn a bit about the development process, especially regarding game mechanics and how they turned into the final product. With more knowledge the community may be able to provide more valuable feedback. Maybe the fireside chats didn't provide enough value for the work it took to create them (which would explain why we have not gotten one since 2015.) This brings me to this portion of your post.

38 minutes ago, JoeW said:

We know there are a lot of people who want character rebalances. We also know there are a lot of people who are happy with the way they are. 

After checking the February 2015 Fireside chat SethR talked about Willow's redesign and how it was a temporary stopgap solution. I am not very familiar with the game's updates back then but was the new functionality hinted at Bernie? Or is this post still hinting at future Willow rebalances? From what I have heard from other players some still expect the team to create further content for Willow so some of the character balance feedback could be under the impression she will receive future content. (Despite the team's actual intentions being fulfilled with Bernie.)

11 minutes ago, Korlie said:

You say "an entire rebalance on characters" as if you'd be literally overhauling them all from the ground up. It's literally one specific tweak for Woodie, Willow and Maxwell that are the primary concerns. Winona is the one you'd be entirely rebalancing. This isn't a PvP game though, the changes you make to characters aren't going to have that much of an impact since 95%+ of the time people are playing together and not against eachother. So if something becomes overpowered, it'll get abused but not against other people. And the changes that are generally being asked for, are not remotely overpowered. Unless you gave the Shadow Duelists 1000 damage and 10000 health or something. Woodie and Willow weren't overpowered to begin with, so reverting them back has literally no chance of making them overpowered since they weren't to begin with.

I've not seen very many people who think Woodie, Winona, Willow and the Shadow Duelists are fine the way they are. You bring up "most people are fine with it the way it is" as if the people who are fine with these characters are a majority. I've never seen that, unless you consider silence as acceptance in which case 90% of the DST community is fine with everything.

You sound incredibly hyper-cautious to act, which is good for avoiding making mistakes but it also makes you much slower to fix mistakes when you do make them.

I don't know if this is accurate but the parity clause Xbox has for developers (older games released on other platforms before xbox one MUST have new exclusive content older version did not have) may have had a negative influence on the development of Winona. This would help explain why she was an xbox timed exclusive piece of content and not part of ANR.

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6 minutes ago, Mr.Mulk said:

Well there actually is one thing Willow can do in DS that other characters can't easily do. She's able to light items in her inventory on fire giving her a dps fire aura that acts as a constant AoE attack. It's super helpful even late game and let's you stack up large amounts of damage, however at a relatively high cost of fuel and risk of destroying everything. It was very well balanced and in my opinion just the re-inclusion of this one mechanic for her would immediately make her viable again, although it may be a hasty thing to do.

I'd never even heard of this until now, it doesn't look natural though considering there's no graphic for items burning in your inventory or you being on fire while holding them.

2 minutes ago, Dreamscape18459 said:

I don't know if this is accurate but the parity clause Xbox has for developers (older games released on other platforms before xbox one MUST have new exclusive content older version did not have) may have had a negative influence on the development of Winona. This would help explain why she was an xbox timed exclusive piece of content and not part of ANR.

Thanks Microsoft

Spoiler

If that's a real thing it probably would explain her extremely primitive quirk designs.

 

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