These forums are becoming unbearable...

[Lifegrow]

4 hours ago, Roboson said:

You don't have to burst their bubble. They just discovered the wheel and reinvented it all on their own. I know from a community standpoint that most everything has been done before, but if someone discovers something cool all on their own, the answer from the community shouldn't be "Cool story bro, it's been done before." or "We've known that since before the outbreak upgrade" or "That uses ____ exploit, it's so bad." That kind of response is a common blight on this community. And that animosity is not coming from the dewy-eyed noobs here, quite the opposite. People who got this game can't possibly know the community, one they're trying to enter and be a part of, knows about it yet. Heck, they feel like they just discovered the world was round. There is no reason for the community to act the way it does towards independent discoveries and the submissions of lesser experienced players. 

So you're advocating lazy forum use by stating that everyone shouldn't bother to do some reading before posting? Shouldn't try and engage with the community before signing up solely to "show off"? Sounds like you're confusing "forum" with "mummy's fridge door" to me. I agree, people should definitely be able to post their builds and show off how proud they are - but if it's a thread that allows for replies, then human nature alone will prompt discussion. "Hey, you could have done this better by...." or "hey, if you swap out that pump, you can be more efficient..". 

Likewise, new players should be made aware if they're using an exploit or a current bug because if/when it get's fixed - and they don't understand the change - they're screwed. To me that would be helpful, constructive feedback, and should be welcomed. You're claiming it's a blight. That says more about your attitude to feedback than anything else.

 

4 hours ago, Roboson said:

Someone may not have reinvented the wheel, or they may have, just to find someone else did so first. That doesn't mean its not content that belongs on this forum. And the way that you treat it, like it's spam, is one of the reasons this community is as toxic as it is. Many veterans have no respect for noobs, and in many ways, eachother. So yes, you treating people's hard work, which they're quite proud of, like it's spam, would certainly "trigger" people. 

If said "someone" had bothered to immerse themselves in the community before the need to show off, they'd soon know if they had/had not reinvented the wheel IF  we had a means of promoting known methods/tips/tricks/help in an accessible/easy to find area.

That's been my point all along, and you're repeating things that have already been mentioned, and acknowledged by Klei... Which is highly ironic if you consider the subject matter. You're not furthering the point, you're expanding it without addition. 

Put your personal "respect" (if that's what you call it) for my "veterancy" aside for a moment, and let's see if we can get something clear here :

Is your idea of a forum a place where little new player "Travaldo" can just come along, ignore everything else that came before them, post a thread, and await nothing but praise without potentially unwanted feedback? It seems like that's what you expect, and If so, you're dreaming. 

I don't consider this community as toxic - I know toxic communities (try playing LoL for an afternoon, that'll make you re-evaluate the word) and this isn't one - however you rightly pointed out that there is a divide between knowledge levels / play time here. That's natural with any and all early access games. You have the "Day 1 'masters' " and the "Day 600 'hey guys I just got this game' " - neither of which are a burden, but both of which should be catered for.

Hence me stating above that maybe a couple of separate sections, i.e. "Discuss your build" and then a separate "Help and Tips" would allow us to both have a happy, helper fairyland section for the new players, to encourage their creativity and help them where needed - but also a separate area where people can really discuss the baffling complexities of your "Power plant from poop" build, with 7 levels of automation, and a thermo switch to detect the temperature of a hatches arsecrack....

We need both.

I whole heartedly agree we should cater for new players - but in everything you've said, I get the impression that you think it's the attitude of the veterans that's responsible for the general attitude on the forums. I could argue that one incredibly vocal "noob" could come along and start carpet bombing the forums and completely change the general tone in a very short space of time. Actually, I could name a couple - but I wont.

Without the "veterans" (god I hate that term) you'll have nothing here but a repository for antiquated/unintelligent builds. You only need to have a look at the disparity between Reddit, the Klei forums and Steam - some are still rubbing sticks together and trying to make a coal gen work, whilst others are splitting the atom.

4 hours ago, Roboson said:

Only rarely are brand new tricks and methods discovered, the recent autosweeper dropping items mechanic is a good example. It's potentially game changing because it adds a whole new element to designs of late game systems (and is generally super cool). But discoveries like that don't happen every day and fall into obscurity after they've been thoroughly discussed and utilized. But, unless someone was watching the forums, and knew enough about the game to get the implications, they would never know.

This is why I think we need a focus on keeping "hot" threads alive somehow. This is why I suggested some sort of vote system to keep threads that clearly answer a problem that might be brought up 1000 times visible somehow. Again, if votes aren't the answer - can we at least agree that keeping verified, helpful discussion threads VISIBLE is the answer ?

Maybe a separate section for "Hot threads" could be an idea - or simply a more visible sorting option to sort by "Most reacted / Most Liked" - we currently can sort by most views, etc - but that often brings a majority of Klei update threads, and little else.

--------------

Anyway, I really didn't want to write any more walls of text in here - especially ones that are counter arguing points that have already been raised/noted and expanded upon. It would be in our interests as a community to discuss this in a civil manner and try and actually come to some conclusion on what would help. It seems my input isn't helping matters, so i'll happily bow out and leave this to either fade into obscurity, or hopefully be expanded upon by others.

Thanks again for the thread acknowledgement @JoeW @ImDaMisterL - I hope something positive comes from this, I really do.

Much love as ever,

-Life

[Roboson]

I mean, it seems we're both in agreement with my earlier:

On 2/15/2018 at 11:29 AM, Roboson said:

1) Help Section: Phailraptor had a good idea here. Lots of the issues seem to be tied into questions and discussion related to misunderstandings of just things people haven't learned yet. Whats more it solves the issue of players posting their builds and not really wanting help for them. Instead they can post them in:

2) Build Section: Just a place for people to put the cool thing they built. Separate from the help section in that other's aren't supposed to critique it. Hopefully rich in cool builds, and sort of seems like what Lifegrow wants the whole forums to be

3) Lounge/Discussion Section: A place for everything else. Things like "Which doop is coolest?" and all sorts of other things that don't fit elsewhere. A miscellaneous section basically. 

Since I don't see any meaningful difference between that and:

On 2/16/2018 at 8:14 PM, Lifegrow said:

"Showcase your build" - paired with a sticky with a polite notice to "have a good browse of the forums before posting your build" in that polite way you Klei folks do  That would hopefully avoid the same generic stuff getting posted constantly, and might actually get people invested in the forums a little if they see some of the discussion that often sparks from peoples designs. It would also help new players actually delve into some of the "deeper" mechanics behind ONI, and possibly get them hooked on the forums too.

"Help and tips" - paired with a sticky with some well chosen "commonly used" tips/tricks/advice for new players. Could be an official Klei-made thread, but quoting members of the community for a sense of .... well,.... community! 

"Tales from the asteroid" - for the roleplayers/story tellers out there who like to play their bases and tell a story from them.

Which is hilarious considering this jerky jab here:

4 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

you're repeating things that have already been mentioned, and acknowledged by Klei... Which is highly ironic if you consider the subject matter. You're not furthering the point, you're expanding it without addition. 

 

4 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

 I get the impression that you think it's the attitude of the veterans that's responsible for the general attitude on the forums.

Yes, if that was not clear, I do believe so. 

4 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

 could argue that one incredibly vocal "noob" could come along and start carpet bombing the forums and completely change the general tone in a very short space of time.

Jeez I hope you're right on that one 

 

Like Life, I too will take my leave of this topic. I think I have made my arguments clear and have tried to remain polite and positive here. I am glad to know that Klei has seen the concerns, the debate, and most importantly, the dialog. We all care about improving the community, and hopefully this thread has put out a few steps in the right direction. 

 

P.S. Lifegrow, add me on league. 

[Lifegrow]

4 hours ago, Roboson said:

Since I don't see any meaningful difference between that and:

On 17/02/2018 at 2:14 AM, Lifegrow said:

"Showcase your build" - paired with a sticky with a polite notice to "have a good browse of the forums before posting your build" in that polite way you Klei folks do  That would hopefully avoid the same generic stuff getting posted constantly, and might actually get people invested in the forums a little if they see some of the discussion that often sparks from peoples designs. It would also help new players actually delve into some of the "deeper" mechanics behind ONI, and possibly get them hooked on the forums too.

"Help and tips" - paired with a sticky with some well chosen "commonly used" tips/tricks/advice for new players. Could be an official Klei-made thread, but quoting members of the community for a sense of .... well,.... community! 

"Tales from the asteroid" - for the roleplayers/story tellers out there who like to play their bases and tell a story from them.

Exactly - I'd taken on board what you'd said and incorporated it into what I would like to see actioned here too, you massive, massive tool  

Jesus - you say it's the veterans that are the problem? Well I'm staring at one cowardly keyboard warrior that only wants to throw stones, instead of actually furthering anything.

I've seen your contributions to the forums - everything posted here is new to you, yet suddenly you're an aficionado on the current state of the place...

Honestly, add me on league - ironically, and totally unrelated - my alias there is "Robosonsabawbag". Weird eh? EU West buddy, I await your invite.x 

-Life.

 

 

 

[Roboson]

Ah damn, I'm in the US. Too bad, it would be fun. 

 

Not is this not my first time round this forums (I left once already due to the toxic elitism), but it's certainly not my first forums either. There are issues that plauge all forum communites. As for being an aficionado, one barely has to read through the front page of posts to find the kinds of responses I'm referring to. Hell, they simply have to read your posts in this thread. I think you've made my point clear enough. 

[ImDaMisterL]

Everyone, keep replies constructive and on-topic, and follow the community guidelines.

[Lifegrow]

12 minutes ago, Roboson said:

Not is this not my first time round this forums (I left once already due to the toxic elitism), but it's certainly not my first forums either. There are issues that plauge all forum communites. As for being an aficionado, one barely has to read through the front page of posts to find the kinds of responses I'm referring to. Hell, they simply have to read your posts in this thread. I think you've made my point clear enough. 

Yeah, the posts where I repeatedly back down, take on board what others had to contribute, and try and incorporate it into an overall solution - how incredibly "jerky" of me, eh?

Listen @Roboson - if you want to throw stones; come speak to me in discord, or in private message if you'd prefer. You've repeatedly centred your posts around quoting me either out of context, or to bypass the content of my posts in their entirety. I have readily taken everything on board that everyone has offered so far - even you, you walking waste of oxygen - and have done this with no regard for my "elitist status" that you seem to keep throwing at me.

Truth be told i'd been trying to keep this civil out of respect for Klei and the forum rules, but to be fair - if you'd given me the amount of directed grief face to face as you have here in this thread - i'd have ripped your tiny head off.

5 minutes ago, ImDaMisterL said:

Everyone, keep replies constructive and on-topic, and follow the community guidelines.

Duly noted - Just felt entitled to a response. You may as well close this thread @ImDaMisterL - it's become a fiasco, which sadly underpins what I was talking about in the first place.

[Roboson]

Yes, I have been using you as an example, as you're the other one posting in this thread. And I think you represent the veteran community quite accurately. As for quoting you out if context, hardly. Ive read your posts throughly and quote you without misrepresenting your stance, or twisting your words. At least, that was my intention and I'm sorry if it came across as any different. 

 

If you think we can have a constructive conversation over discord, my name there is Roboson#6289. I would not mind moving the discussion to a more private setting, assuming you can keep it civil.