Self-Powering Oxygen Module MkII - (Production-And-Cooling)

[martosss]

9 minutes ago, Kabrute said:

if you find any system deleting gasses then please post a bug report with save file.  Thank you

Do we need to post a bug about doors? I'm pretty sure it's a known issue Same for CO2 scrubber - input CO2 - output - zilch(unless it's carbonated water or mass preserving it doesn't count).

 

24 minutes ago, Angpaur said:

@Grimgaw I already tested 2 pumps desings - they cause hydrogen deletion. And you have 4 of them...

You should check if yours delete hydrogen too.

How do you detect this? Measure O2 generation and compare to Power generated? Or have gases be output in a tile and look at tile's contents?

[Kabrute]

1 minute ago, martosss said:

Do we need to post a bug about doors?

Depends on the circumstances.  60%yes, 20%no, 20%maybe so do it anyway.  The known "not a bug" cases are basically when the door is buried in other doors or tiles or otherwise there is clearly no escape for the gas..... it will get deleted...  Setting automation to close the doors faster than a second apart will not provide enough time for gas to flow, and can delete it.  If you design it not to delete gas and it does anyway, bug report it.  When in doubt let the devs sort it out.  Thats my motto anyway

[Angpaur]

Thanks @Kabrute, it is reported

 

[Angpaur]

17 minutes ago, martosss said:

How do you detect this? Measure O2 generation and compare to Power generated? Or have gases be output in a tile and look at tile's contents?

I'm storing the hydrogen, to measure how much was produced. In 2 pumps setup it was only ~60kg after one cycle of the electrolyzer was up 100% time.

[martosss]

1 minute ago, Kabrute said:

Depends on the circumstances.  60%yes, 20%no, 20%maybe so do it anyway.  The known "not a bug" cases are basically when the door is buried in other doors or tiles or otherwise there is clearly no escape for the gas..... it will get deleted...  Setting automation to close the doors faster than a second apart will not provide enough time for gas to flow, and can delete it.  If you design it not to delete gas and it does anyway, bug report it.  When in doubt let the devs sort it out.  Thats my motto anyway

How about not deleting gas at all?

1. Door "traps" gas inside(like critters get trapped) and when you open it the gas flows around.
2. Gas is pushed sideways, possibly getting trapped between 2 doors, not disappearing(like magic). Staying on both sides of the door in equal amounts would be my guess for "realistic".

Both of those accomplish the door's description of "blocking gases and liquids' flow and maintaining pressure between areas" without deleting gases?

Isn't it similar to digging tiles - you dig a tile and carbon dioxide appears underneath. So instead of deleting gas when you build on top of it, just make the gas stay there until you uncover it/open the door.

Vacuum is a powerful thing and it should be hard to maintain it(maybe require power for vacuum-making doors? But even then, gas shouldn't disappear.. maybe a gas pipe should suck it and transport it away, something like a mini gas pump).

Of course that's just my view of things. If developers like deleting gas I can't stop them.

[Kabrute]

if you corner dig co2 doesnt appear there, if you dig a spot, gas will flow in to fill it.  When you open your doors they create a space, gas flows in to fill it.  if you close the door, wrap it with tiles, then open it, it will hold a vacuum.  Your concept of vacuum being difficult is a matter of relativity.  A mercury drip pump is capable of pulling sufficient vacuum to use light as propulsion.(i forgot the names for the experiments).  Vacuum is difficult for us because we have to fight 14lbs per square inch in order to pull said vacuum in most instances.  even at 2kg per square thats just 4 lbs of atmospheric pressure the dupes are under.  They have 1/7 the force against them ambiently speaking, as such vacuums are easier to achieve. 

I think the real issue here is the differentiation between "sufficient vacuum to effectively be vacuum(what we typically achieve here on earth with thermos etc)" and a "perfect vacuum, where metals cold weld on contact from lack of oxidative buffer."

[Angpaur]

I decided to look closer to the gas deletion in 2 pump build and check if it can be reduced.

I get it reduced a bit, but after running for 10 cycles a test build from attached save file I realized that there is not only hydrogen deletion but oxygen as well.

I managed to store only 650kg of hydrogen and 5149kg of oxygen. Electrolyzer was up 100% of the time, so values should be ~670kg and ~5320kg.

Attached save: 

gas deletion test2.sav

[Kabrute]

if you hover your mouse over the electrolizer it will occasionally show over-pressure, even with 2 pumps up against it I could only maintain 99% efficiency, bumping 99.5% sometimes.

This has happened now twice in the save you sent in the morning part of the day.  May have to switch to normal speed in order to catch it as even at that speed its barely a flicker.

I would argue that is partially responsible for your "missing' gas

[Angpaur]

I'm not sure if it can explain 3% of mssing gas.

Reports show that oxygen production never dropped below 530kg per cycle, so some gas is missing.

So either there is a bug in reports or some of the produced gas is getting deleted.

[martosss]

2 hours ago, martosss said:

Isn't it similar to digging tiles - you dig a tile and carbon dioxide appears underneath

Well, that's definitely not true oops!

Sorry, i had the wrong idea about digging, it creates vacuum and stuff flows into it - makes sense. See - when it makes sense you can't argue with it(although it's still a mystery where the other 1/2 of the dug amount goes, and yea I read they made it for heat exchange control, but still...)

1 hour ago, Kabrute said:

 Your concept of vacuum being difficult is a matter of relativity.

I agree with this part. It is relative to the pressure "on the other side". You basically move an object, making vacuum on 1 side and compressing everything on the other side of this object.

1 hour ago, Kabrute said:

Vacuum is difficult for us because we have to fight 14lbs per square inch in order to pull said vacuum in most instances.  even at 2kg per square thats just 4 lbs of atmospheric pressure the dupes are under.  They have 1/7 the force against them ambiently speaking, as such vacuums are easier to achieve. 

Wait, you mean 2/7, as in 4/14?

I'm not sure you have the math correct, though. I agree that our air pressure is 1kg/cm²(14lbs/inch²).

However, how do you calculate the dupes' pressure? look at the dupe 2 squares and the surrounding area contents? That's not how pressure is calculated. Moreover, you say 2kg/square, but the game uses 1 meter per tile, so whatever you mean, you should think of the game tiles as meters.

1m³ of air weighs ~1kg on Earth(1.3kg, just googled it), so we have ~ the same air density, here, on earth, as dupes(imagine dupes have 1.3 kg per m² air around them for the sake of the argument). So if you count gravity as 384 squares to the bottom(the middle of the crater), then the pressure is on average(in the middle of the map) 200 squares(that's how many squares there are between dupes and open space above them), meaning 200 meters of air above them pressing on them, so the air pressure should be 200kg/m(notice it's m, since the game is 2D )=0.2kg/cm - that's 1/5th of Earth's  ( or is it, as it's in other units)

Even at 20% force, you still need force to make vacuum, and more importantly, which is my main point - you don't delete gases in the process, you move them somewhere else.

 

29 minutes ago, Angpaur said:

I'm not sure if it can explain 3% of mssing gas.

Reports show that oxygen production never dropped below 530kg per cycle, so some gas is missing.

Theoretical maximum is 532.8kg Oxygen(I've reached it with my setup), so do you really get that number? If so, you should somehow isolate the generated Hydrogen for the EXACT SAME amount, meaning from the start of the cycle to the end of the cycle. Only then can you say whether you have gas deletion(i.e. compare whether H2:O2 = 112:888). And actually even then, if equal amounts of both gases are deleted, you wouldn' be able to say that there is gas deletion.

[Angpaur]

I run test for 10 cycles to get more consistent results and stored gases are too little compared to what should be there, according to daily reports.

And yes - during the test I'm isolating all produced gases in a storage rooms, to have a way to measure it.

You can check the save file for yourself and look at the reports from last 10 cycles (I started test at beginning of cycle 44) - oxygen production never dropped below 530kg per cycle, so theoretically I should have in the storage ~5300kg. And I have 150kg less.

[martosss]

11 minutes ago, Angpaur said:

I run test for 10 cycles to get more consistent results and stored gases are too little compared to what should be there, according to daily reports.

And yes - during the test I'm isolating all produced gases in a storage rooms, to have a way to measure it.

You can check the save file for yourself and look at the reports from last 10 cycles (I started test at beginning of cycle 44) - oxygen production never dropped below 530kg per cycle, so theoretically I should have in the storage ~5300kg. And I have 150kg less.

If you get  a report saying you generated 10kg and you only have 9 .. maybe the rest is still in the tubes and in the compression chamber? Although 150kg seems a lot to be in there....

I actually never tested the actual amount of Oxygen - I was looking at the report and hoping that the gas traveled through the tubes and somewhere outside. So ... if there is gas deletion, probably at the glitchy vent ?

[Angpaur]

1 minute ago, martosss said:

So ... if there is gas deletion, probably at the glitchy vent ?

No, becuase in case of the build with 3 pumps, I presented here, numbers are fine - in storage there is correct amount of gases.

[Oozinator]

and when you force the electrolyzer with automation to switch on off  every 1sec, get's the difference bigger?
 

[ZanthraSW]

Can you test for deleted hydrogen in a build like this with a hydrogen bubble above the electrolyzer?

[martosss]

43 minutes ago, Oozinator said:

and when you force the electrolyzer with automation to switch on off  every 1sec, get's the difference bigger?
 

No automation there, look at his save file - just 2 pumps working 100% of the time ... I just opened it and test it and I have to confirm - 3% deleted Oxygen, here are the save files. I added the atmo sensor so I can stop the electrolyzer at the end of the day.

Here's what I do:

1) At the beginning of the test stop electrolyzer => make vacuum in the chamber => let pumps spit all gases out of tubes => create vacuum in the gathering chambers

2) Then start test - let electrolyzer run for almost a day(±2-3 sec since I need to start/stop it using the atmo switch - just click above/beyond to toggle the electrolyzer manually. Regardless if I lost some of the up-time, the numbers should match - 888vs 112, right?)

3) At the end of the test stop the electrolyzer and let pumps create a vacuum in the chamber until all gas is in the gathering chambers.

4) look at Oxygen and Hydrogen in the gathering chambers - my results are the following:

• Report - 518.6kg Oxygen generated(Electrolyzer only)
• Actual Oxygen container content  502.8kg(2x251.4)
• Actual Hydrogen container content - 63kg(2x31.5)
• Ratio between actual amounts should be 888:112(7.92857), but is 7.98095, which is definitely bigger, so more Hydrogen or less Oxygen
• Generated 502.8kg Oxygen is 94.37% of theoretical maximum(532.8kg)
• Generated 63kg Hydrogen is 93.75% of theoretical maximum(67.2kg)

In any case, there is a discrepancy

1. as I started with vacuum, I should end with 888:112 ratio between gases - this isn't the case
2. Report differs by 3%, same for Angpaur(he said 150 kg from 5300 are missing, which is 3%)

That is strange and 3% is ... 150kg ! It's not THAT much, but it's still 3% so we want our 3% back!

gasdeletiontest3.sav

gasdeletiontest3end.sav

P.S. I'm gonna test with pressurized vents now to make sure that the vent glitch is not the problem. And if it is - then we know that we're losing 3% when using glitchy vents(I'd gladly pay the price if I could lol).

[martosss]

OK, results are in: I used pressurized vents.

Report says 461.8kg. Note that the report said 888g(1sec) when I started(I had it from the previous test, so you have to subtract this from the result, as I didn't generate it it) and generated 3sec more before I stop(2664g today), so I generated 2664+888 = 3552g less that day than what is shown on the report. That means that the report value for me should be 461.8kg - 3.5kg=458.3kg.

And I generated .... the suspense is killing me ... 451.54kg(100 tiles with the same value),

I also generated 58.15kg of Hydrogen, which means for that day they were 336g less(because of the 3sec additional generation), so I should have  generated 57.8kg of Hydrogen.

Now let's crunch some numbers:

O2 efficiency - 451.54/532.8= 84.7% efficiency

H2 efficiency - 57.8/67.2 = 86% efficiency

• Note this time O2 efficiency is lower than H2 efficiency! Honestly I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean, but they should be the same

difference between report and actual value is 6.7kg - ~1.5%

Also note that what I added/subtracted was 3-4sec wortth of time, which is 0.5%, so even if it's a bit incorrect, it still doesn't change the final outcome.

So to sum up, I'm still getting less Oxygen than reported, so there's definitely something wrong. and since I did the 2nd test without glitched vents, vents aren't the issue here

[KittenIsAGeek]

On 7/11/2018 at 6:55 PM, Megouski said:

If its getting too cold, simply setup a way to turn the cold factor on and off. As the cold is coming from worts, you want to turn them on and off. To do that you set them on a door that you can open and close based on pipe temp. No need to cool then heat.

Or you could throw in a gas shutoff that when active bypasses the wheezewarts.

[martosss]

2 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Or you could throw in a gas shutoff that when active bypasses the wheezewarts.

I actually did this with heating, but you need some piping tricks so that returning water doesn't go in the wrong direction.

[Angpaur]

10 hours ago, ZanthraSW said:

Can you test for deleted hydrogen in a build like this with a hydrogen bubble above the electrolyzer?

Your build is not deleting hydrogen. It is doing something far more interesting - it is creating hydrogen at the expense of oxygen!

At first I thought I made some miistake so I run it for 10 cycles. Below results:

avarage oxygen production reported: ~507kg/cycle = 5070kg oxygen and 640kg of hydrogen should be stored. (total 5710kg)

stored oxygen: 4928kg

stored hydrogen: 782kg

total stored: 5710kg

So proportions of hydrogen and oxygen have changed but the total amount of gas produced is as expected - no deletion occured.

And I really like this results as this allows to make more hydrogen from water and thus having more power.

So now I know what build I will be using in a future

Screw the oxygen, I want that sweet magical hydrogen!

gas_creation.sav

[Oozinator]

1 hour ago, Angpaur said:

Screw the oxygen, I want that sweet magical hydrogen!

But that's nothing new. Hydrogen power is my base backbone till "end/lategame" and others do it similar.
But they don't build most times cluster pump electrolyzer settings, open builds are trendy..

[_Q_]

You can make better builds, just need to make a bit of plastic for high pressure vents.

[Angpaur]

2 hours ago, Oozinator said:

But that's nothing new. Hydrogen power is my base backbone till "end/lategame" and others do it similar.
But they don't build most times cluster pump electrolyzer settings, open builds are trendy..

I meant the 14kg/cycle of magically created hydrogen. And even if this build is not able to run electrolyzer 100% up time then for me it is still better to have some more, mysteriously created hydrogen, at the expense of lower oxygen production.

This build somehow alters the proportion of produced gases to 137g/s of hydrogen and 863g/s of oxygen.

Normally it is 112g/s and 888g/s.

[Oozinator]

1 hour ago, Angpaur said:

I meant the 14kg/cycle of magically created hydrogen. And even if this build is not able to run electrolyzer 100% up time then for me it is still better to have some more, mysteriously created hydrogen, at the expense of lower oxygen production.

This build somehow alters the proportion of produced gases to 137g/s of hydrogen and 863g/s of oxygen.

Normally it is 112g/s and 888g/s.

I store O² and can produce so much hydrogen i like..

[Angpaur]

3 minutes ago, Oozinator said:

I store O² and can produce so much hydrogen i like..

But you are doing it at cost of 1000g of water to produce 112g of hydrogen.

This build somehow can reduce cost of water, so you can have same amount of hydrogen at cost of 817g of water.

Hower I still don't know how it is possible. Anyone has some idea? Or there is some error in my calculations?