Ipsquiggle

[Game Update] - 253538

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SkunkMaster    192
30 minutes ago, turbonl64 said:

Atleast stuff now is getting done in the base. Before buildings with dig jobs where left unattended for a long time, even with 40+ dupes!

 

You are aware that you are talking about another change, right ? Architects can now dig out un-dug buildings, if they have the required resources to be build.

 

Please do explain to me how that correlates to the 1-5* / 1-9 change, cause i can't see the connection.

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Surfinite    16
2 hours ago, turbonl64 said:

Atleast stuff now is getting done in the base. Before buildings with dig jobs where left unattended for a long time, even with 40+ dupes!

2

Stuff might be getting done, but it's getting done slowly and inefficiently (by the wrong duplicants) and there's no way to correct it.

8 hours ago, jigggy2000 said:

From my understanding of how it was before was clicking that * button would change everything to how it was originally but with the exception of having only a max priority of 5 (instead of 9). This confused people? if clicking a single button is too confusing perhaps just keep the 1 - 9 priority system with no change. But keep that * button to switch back to the "advanced" option of having dupes prioritize based on their roles/jobs.

 

I like that Idea.  I'm completely fine with needing to click the * every time.  Any option that actually gives you the control we had before is better regardless of how cumbersome it is.  They might need to make it 1-9 /1*-9* though to keep the people that wanted higher resolution happy.

Edited by Surfinite

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goboking    1,527
12 hours ago, Surfinite said:

A much larger silent portion of the playerbase were completely happy with the update.

Is this speculation on your part, or do you have some kind of source to back up this claim?

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Roxanne4018    18
4 hours ago, turbonl64 said:

Atleast stuff now is getting done in the base. Before buildings with dig jobs where left unattended for a long time, even with 40+ dupes!

I'd also like to give that guy a medal, but unlike you in a none-sarcastic way.

The only reason things would not get done is the fact that skill would't increase and he's talking about the priority system. The 1-5* made things a lot more efficient and people could have notice it if they bothered adjusting. I'm 1000% sure that if people tried the priority system in a gameplay where dupes are able to level up skills they would be much much happier and see the bigger picture

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Surfinite    16
1 hour ago, goboking said:

Is this speculation on your part, or do you have some kind of source to back up this claim?

It was just speculation.  But I think its backed up by the number of people saying they hate it now.

People are going to be much more vocal about something they dislike over something they think is good.

The number of people in this thread that support 1-9 but make it very clear they didn't understand 1*-5* is evidence too that the devs were wrong to listen to the complainers.

Here are a few examples:

19 hours ago, clickrush said:

It's basicly the same as the 1-5* priority system just that the soft priorities only have 1 priority level. The end result is very similar, but simpler, in a sense it is best of both worlds. I liked the 1-5* better but the simplicity of this patch might win out.

2
17 hours ago, goboking said:

I don't see that as a negative.  Players should think about the priority settings they use, in my humble opinion.

16 hours ago, Kasuha said:

Okay, I'm happy about return to 1-9 priorities, it gives me the resolution I was used to (if you liked 1-5, you can simply use 4-8 now with the same result

 

It's really not the same, key functionality has been removed, it's not just that people don't want to think about what priorities to set things on. 

 

18 hours ago, Byste said:
  • Jobs still offer individualized dupe progression
    • you can care about your dupes' careers
    • make specialists or generalists is the player's choice as all options have merits now
  • Jobs affect priority of tasks assigned so you can manage workflow better, it's a great buff to automating micromanagement
 

If you care at all about efficiency you can't go down the specialist line because:

  1. You can't make sure your dupes actually do their job all the time.  You need to set every task to the same priority otherwise you'll have your cook doing the priority 7 building when there is priority 6 cooking to do.
  2. Its far better in this system to have every dupe at a high level and able to always do all jobs quickly, which you can achieve with a high learning skill and have your dupes get good at everything fast.

 

The tubular update is now pointless because high athletics dupes are faster than tubes and the conveyor belts are now very limited in use too as its so much cheaper to just have dupes clean up a mess with their level 20 athletics and Strength than build a whole conveyor system.

Super dupes are now even more OP because they can level strength too.

Edited by Surfinite
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goboking    1,527
2 minutes ago, Surfinite said:

The number of people in this thread that support 1-9 but make it very clear they didn't understand 1*-5* is evidence too that the devs were wrong to listen to the complainers.

Several critics of the 1-5 system have articulated their reasons quite clearly, so for you to dismiss their criticisms as the complaints of the ignorant is grossly unfair.

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Surfinite    16
7 minutes ago, goboking said:

Several critics of the 1-5 system have articulated their reasons quite clearly, so for you to dismiss their criticisms as the complaints of the ignorant is grossly unfair.

I disagree.  Almost all the reasons provided as to why 1*-5* is inferior to 1-9 are nonsensical to me. The one that I do agree with is people that utilised the extra granularity that 1-9 gave, but I would counter that we should have a 1-9 with 1*-9* system.
I'm in support of the default priority being strict too, so a build job set to 1* would always be done before something set to 9 by a builder.  Then if you like normal 1-9 then you can just never click the * button. All buildings default to priority 5 and if you like having job specialisation that actually works you will need to go around setting a * priority on every item.

Edited by Surfinite

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Wedgebert    31
1 minute ago, Surfinite said:

I disagree.  Almost all the reasons provided as to why 1*-5* is inferior to 1-9 are nonsensical to me. The one that I do agree with is people that utilised the extra granularity that 1-9 gave, but I would counter that we should have a 1-9 with 1*-9* system.
I'm in support of the default priority being strict too, so a build job set to 1* would always be done before something set to 9 by a builder.  Then if you like normal 1-9 then you can just never click the * button.

That's not how strict worked though. A 1* would always be done last except for non-strict, non-preferred 1s. Basically all strict did was make all dupes treat that task as if it were a preferred job. So a builder would do a priority 1 build over a priority 9 sweep, but if you made that sweep strict, the builder would treat it as if it were a build job and hop right on it.

Defaulting everything to strict would allow you do set proper permissions, but only if you were willing to micro-manage everything. Every dig square would be a preferred job for everyone, unless you decided it shouldn't be. So your cooks and researchers could still drop what they're doing depending on how your other tasks were set up.

 

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Kasuha    1,217
20 minutes ago, Surfinite said:

It's really not the same, key functionality has been removed

These are two independent things. Job specificity, the way dupes prefer their job related tasks over other tasks, can work both with priority selections 1-5 and 1-9, the only difference is resolution. And if you bothered to read my whole post, you'd realize that I miss the specificity too, but I like the return of the resolution.

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Surfinite    16
5 minutes ago, Wedgebert said:

That's not how strict worked though. A 1* would always be done last except for non-strict, non-preferred 1s. Basically all strict did was make all dupes treat that task as if it were a preferred job. So a builder would do a priority 1 build over a priority 9 sweep, but if you made that sweep strict, the builder would treat it as if it were a build job and hop right on it.

Defaulting everything to strict would allow you do set proper permissions, but only if you were willing to micro-manage everything. Every dig square would be a preferred job for everyone, unless you decided it shouldn't be. So your cooks and researchers could still drop what they're doing depending on how your other tasks were set up.

2

Yeah OK I didn't explain clearly.  I'm suggesting we switch what the asterisk means.

The best solution, I think, is 1-9 like we have now where dupes pick job tasks within the same priority level before other jobs.  Then if you hit the asterisk that sets up that item so it's tended to by a dupe with the corresponding job before he does any tasksthat don't match his job.

This system is a bit more complicated, but I'm trying to think of something that leaves the default functionality the same.

9 minutes ago, Kasuha said:

These are two independent things. Job specificity, the way dupes prefer their job related tasks over other tasks, can work both with priority selections 1-5 and 1-9, the only difference is resolution. And if you bothered to read my whole post, you'd realize that I miss the specificity too, but I like the return of the resolution.

I did read your whole post originally but was looking back for people I thought didn't understand the system.  Yes you're right I missed that you liked the job task preferences, sorry about that.  It's still not correct to say that "you can simply use 4-8 now with the same result"

I feel that having less resolution is a very small inconvenience compared to the huge negative impact of not having dupes prefer tasks related to their job.  I realise that depends on everyone's individual playstyle quite drastically.

Given that super dupes are back, however, it's actually kind of irrelevant whether we get job priority preferences back, because the only efficient way to play is to have high learning on all your dupes and let them become masters in everything.

It's frustrating because I think there are a reasonable number of ways they can make everyone happy, but they're making huge changes at once rather than small adjustments until it becomes balanced.

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Wedgebert    31

Ok, that makes a little more sense.

However I think we shouldn't worry about leaving the default functionality the same. It's an Early Access game which means systems are bound to be drastically changed. It's not like they're taking Call of Duty and overhauling a major mechanic that existed since launch. Had the game launched with this system, nobody would have batted an eye. If the goal with this update was to make jobs useful, then the priority system should default to the options that further that goal.

As to the other people who suggest making it an option to support both. Sure, that's doable, but every system, option, and action you add to a game increases the complexity of the game and the likelihood of bugs and performance issues. Sure, it might sound easy to add a button to toggle, but that means code changes, extra debugging, more code to support, etc.

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Roxanne4018    18
8 minutes ago, Surfinite said:

Yeah OK I didn't explain clearly.  I'm suggesting we switch what the asterisk means.

The best solution, I think, is 1-9 like we have now where dupes pick job tasks within the same priority level before other jobs.  Then if you hit the asterisk that sets up that item so it's tended to by a dupe with the corresponding job before he does any tasksthat don't match his job.

This system is a bit more complicated, but I'm trying to think of something that leaves the default functionality the same.

why not add a Toggle switch that could either prioritize jobs or not and then the * would be used when you want the opposite to happen. That way you set it once and everyone can have what they like without having to spend 90% of their game play in the priority overlay

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Surfinite    16
4 minutes ago, Wedgebert said:

Ok, that makes a little more sense.

However I think we shouldn't worry about leaving the default functionality the same. It's an Early Access game which means systems are bound to be drastically changed. It's not like they're taking Call of Duty and overhauling a major mechanic that existed since launch. Had the game launched with this system, nobody would have batted an eye. If the goal with this update was to make jobs useful, then the priority system should default to the options that further that goal.

As to the other people who suggest making it an option to support both. Sure, that's doable, but every system, option, and action you add to a game increases the complexity of the game and the likelihood of bugs and performance issues. Sure, it might sound easy to add a button to toggle, but that means code changes, extra debugging, more code to support, etc.

I suggested leaving the default the same only because they seemed to want to listen to everyone that complained originally.

I would usually agree with you that new features mean all the extras in support etc that you suggested.  But this is greatly reduced because they've already built both systems and they've both been tested by the player base, albeit for a short period of time.

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Edjren    10

I just made an account to add my voice to those who are saying they liked the direction the changes were taking and don't like the rollback.

The new system took a bit of getting used to, but I grew to like the elimination of super dupes in favor of specialists.  I just had to change the way I did certain things.

Under the old system, I would paint buildings into solid rock and my dupes would excavate, supply and build the whole thing in one fell swoop.  It was easier, but not exactly fun.  With the new system, I found it worked better to stagger the workload - the miners would go in first to dig out the area, then I'd paint the room and the suppliers would drop off the materials and finally the builders would come in and build it.  Coordinating these activities over several projects simultaneously was more satisfying and fun than the old draw it and watch your super dupes build it approach.

I also enjoyed the way jobs worked on a macro scale.  Using the old system, I am constantly adjusting what tasks each dupe is allowed to perform.  Nobody is allowed to cook except the cook and the cook is only allowed to cook (I don't want him rushing off to water the plants) ... that is until he's idle then I have to allow him to do other things, but then I have to go back and limit him to only cooking when more food is harvested.  The same for my researchers and builders and everyone else who I just want to stay and do their jobs.  So much tedious clicking just to get people to do what I want.

Under the new system I would see a need and adjust the composition of my work force to deal with it.  It was faster and more satisfying.

I was even growing to like the new non-leveling skills.  I just had to adjust my thinking.  The fact that my builders were slow didn't matter so much if they just needed to get to a site that was already supplied and start building.

This isn't to say that the system was perfect.  The 'Tidy' dupes didn't seem to want to sweep or mop and it would be nice if the miners would prioritize building ladders.  And at the moment, the jobs desk feels superfluous.

Also, the 'Interests' mechanic feels is a bit weak.  Maybe migrate it along with the performance boost to a simple Happiness system where dupes that are stress free and having their expectations exceeded get a performance boost.  Doing jobs that interest them make them happier so they'd get the performance bonus by being stress free and having their expectations met as opposed to exceeded.    

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Keyimin    62

Sometimes drastic changes are necessary to get "both sides" of the playerbase's opinions while working to find the right middle-ground balance. I'd say that's especially true when a major system is being overhauled. On that basis, I'm not sure it's fair to assume this partial rollback is Klei "caving" to one side or the other. Snarky pot shots aren't helpful. They are listening and actively (and quickly) making changes in an attempt to achieve something that works the best for their intent and for the most players (both new and old). 

So, I'm personally thrilled that skill-ups are back. I do, however, think there's still an appropriate balance to be achieved with it in light of the jobs system. No one ever gaining levels = bad (first patch); everyone always gaining levels = bad (new patch). And the skill-ups are too fast. If dupes are to become masters of all by end game, that's one thing (and not necessarily desired either), but maxing out athletics by cycle 40ish is way too soon. So at a minimum, leveling should be slowed down a fair bit. 

I think it makes sense to still have most (if not all) skill-ups linked to job assignments. Disassociating the two makes each feel less meaningful. So, for example, it would be sensible for a miner to level up digging, athletics, and strength because all three of these attributes are necessary to getting better at that job. A farmer (at a base level) could level up farming, digging (for harvesting), and athletics (for supply). A cook could level up cooking and tinkering (for machine operation necessary to cook). 

Tying the skills that level up directly to job assignments would, I think, eliminate the "superdupes" until much much later in the game and only if the player assigns every dupe to every (or most) of the different occupations throughout the course of the colony. But for the vast majority, and certainly through mid- to late-game, both jobs and skills would have meaning.

Also, I'm neutral on the 1-9 vs. 1-5* systems with ONE important exception. Dupes assigned to a particular job should always do that job unless they have nothing to do or are specifically "instructed" to do something else. Whether that's an asterisk on a priority, an improved set of task selections for dupes, or whatever, it doesn't matter IMHO. But that was a crucial part of the 1-5* system that should remain. Otherwise, we just end up with dupes doing all manner of crap they have no business doing in terms of occupations and no sensible way to control that.

My two cents' worth of a small book for now as I proceed through the latest patch lol. Thank you, devs, for continuing to listen and hear us.

EDIT:

Oh I forgot one other very important thing. I really think supply and delivery tasks that are directly related to a job should be included in that job. So a builder should always be able to bring materials for the building without needing to have "supply" checked in the allowed tasks.

This would go a long way to 1) smoothing out some of the chaos and/or frustration with things getting done (e.g., the architect builds a few tiles and then goes off to clean a toilet or something because the gofer hasn't delivered materials for next tiles yet, goes back to build a few tiles, leaves again, rinse repeat ad nauseum) and 2) reducing the massive load that gofers currently have. 

Edited by Keyimin
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nessumo    1

I strongly support "new complainers". 1-5* system was a big step, nicely backed up by jobs system. It was not easy to catch the idea at first, but that was really the only problem with it. It should be brought back, but probably with better interface and naming. Maybe instead of overlapping 1-5 numbers you could come up with som other markings that make understanding the order more intuitive? Current state is IMHO even worse that before the update, as "strong scientists" are again the meta and job system is neither in synergy with anything nor making the game more interesting - just more annoying.

Please, bring it back ;) Count the previous complainers, new ones and see that we are right. And that you were right, when you introduced 1-5*. 

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IvanX    69
8 hours ago, goboking said:

Is this speculation on your part, or do you have some kind of source to back up this claim?

Lets figure out?

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Master Miner    79
On 2.2.2018 at 7:13 PM, Ipsquiggle said:

Liquids will now only sublimate to a max pressure.

Hello!

If that would be 20 kg/square than that's fine, but I think anything lower would unnecessarily nerf production of oxygen out of polluted water.

BTW, finding a pocket of high pressure polluted oxygen is actually a treat.

Thanks! :)

PS: Generally I'd like to encourage you to always resist temptations to make the game easy. Adding challenges makes the game better. Changes in the game can be viewed as new challenges as well ... most of the time :)

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Master Miner    79
On 2.2.2018 at 7:13 PM, Ipsquiggle said:
  • Tiles can no longer be build on top of Tempshift Plates.

There are quite a few very interesting contraptions that use exactly that - metal tile (e.g. tungsten) on a tempshift plate - preventing gassos or fluids to pass but providing good heat exchange. I'm afraid that having two tempshift plates, one on each side of the metal tile won't be the same - it has weaker conductivity and needs much more space / covers much bigger area.

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Without reading the whole thread, I like skill leveling and the new job system.

You could bind the max skill level of a duplicant to his current job stat, meaning:

Regular dupe can level architect from 0-3, lvl1 3-7, lvl2 8-12, lvl3 13-20; no leveling beyond 3 for anyone who's not a professional architect.

I'd also like to see the 1-5 pro system with the * selector back in action. It helped massively splitting up the current workload and enforcing a job regime.

Edited by TheRealKillface

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SkySentinel    40
On 03.02.2018 at 4:13 AM, Ipsquiggle said:
  • Tiles can no longer be build on top of Tempshift Plates.

As I've already posted, this fix actually breaks the only one effective way to condense steam and exchange its heat with coolant. It would be much better if the fix allowed to build tempshift plates over tiles, rather than forbade to build tiles over tempshift plates.

But a solution of the issue may be to add to the game a liquid radiator (passive heat exchanger) with efficiency equal to the system based on tempshift plates. Something like this (just coiled pipe with radiator fins):

37-Radiator.jpg

Edited by SkySentinel
adding the suggestion about possible solution
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Master Miner    79
On 3.2.2018 at 11:46 AM, Surfinite said:

Stuff might be getting done, but it's getting done slowly and inefficiently (by the wrong duplicants) and there's no way to correct it.

It can be corrected by tuning the task scheduler a bit towards planning - in the way that it looks a bit forward and optimizes the cost. When this is achieved, then the current system would be much more efficient than hard restrictions.

 

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Eltoron    2

The only complain about 1*-5* was low resolution. The design was great. And now it's much worse. I'm sure that most of complains about priorities, dupes speed etc was because of natural player inertia. But I can understand the rollback of skills leveling. But rollback of a great and very usefully job priorities is a terrible decision.

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