[Game Update] - 253538

[shimool]

5 minutes ago, goboking said:

I don't see that as a negative.  Players should think about the priority settings they use, in my humble opinion.

true. but whit the new job system i just did feel the 1-5 priority system complimented the jobs.

[IvanX]

Why? Why the rollback? the 5+5 priority system was awesome, the idea between soft/hard priorities was good... Rarely would I use hard priority, and now with 9 system you can no longer prioritize anything without forcing every job to just do what they're not meant to do.

 

As for the skill leveling.. at first I was a bit shocked, but without leveling - skills feel like they matter. Maybe there should be some tutoring instead, like old theme hospital. Was a very nice way of leveling there. instead of passive leveling non-stop, you had to put a good tutor with students, and they would spend a lot of time learning to be able to reach master's level. The only thing that should level automatically is prolly athletics. Cause it ruins lategame if speed doesn't scale up.

The jobs are pretty useless now, given the leveling the bonuses are super tiny compared to extra stress they provide. And if i used to pick all my duplicants with max learning keeping the blind eye on all the other skills, the new job system finally fixed that, and now we're back to learning harass... Just let em level their skills faster, who cares for what they're good at.

I kinda demand a poll to get the new content back and running... there must be more people who would stand for it

Edited February 2, 2018 by IvanX

[Surfinite]

Quote

Jobs now affect priority within a single priority level (e.g. will prefer one prio 5 task over another prio 5 task) rather than across priority levels (6 is always higher than 5 no matter what)

2

This is very limiting.  It was far better with 1-5, 1*-5* and not at all confusing in my opinion.

I've created an account here specially to say this!  I checked the forums after it updated because I wanted to find out how to set up job-specific priorities.  Didn't ever consider that it might have been removed completely.

You should consider giving people the option of which priority system they prefer, or maybe a better idea is to have a tick box for each item that stops anyone not set to that job from using it.  The current restrictions you can set in the job screen are not granular enough.

 

If you're going to give us dupes that specialise, we need to have the ability to control who does what.  Specialisation without the control is not playable.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Surfinite

[Surfinite]

Quote

Re-enabled attribute leveling, reduced max attribute base level to 20

I used to choose max learning for every dupe because it was the only thing that mattered.  This change made it really fun having different jobs for different dupes and the starting stats actually mattered.  Now the entire occupation thing seems pointless if they're still going to level anyway.

Quote

Athletics is rolled separately from other attributes, and no roles directly buff athletics anymore

The Jobs menu states that Exosuit Engineer gives +2 athletics.  Is this an oversight?

Edited February 2, 2018 by Surfinite

[Gordon Frohman]

I absolutely hate this change....

The 5+5* Priority system was so much better than this, it's ridiculous. Cooks would Cook, and nothing else until the cooking was done. Miners would mine, and nothing else until the mining was done. It worked so well out of the box with no manual fiddling with the priority system.

This is a huge step backwards, and I absolutely hate it. The new hats are cool, and I'm glad leveling is back, but the 5+5* priority system was probably my favorite change to date. I came home today excited to play and honestly, I don't even wanna anymore.

[Kasuha]

Okay, I'm happy about return to 1-9 priorities, it gives me the resolution I was used to (if you liked 1-5, you can simply use 4-8 now with the same result).

I also like very much many of the changes (job station, capped stat leveling, all the bug fixes etc). They're good things and it's a great patch overall.

 

The only thing I kind of started liking was how duplicants preferred job-related tasks over other tasks. As soon as they were able to do all of their job (including deliveries or pre-build digs) it was actually pretty good and the only lingering aspect was tasks not covered by any currently occupied job. I hope devs will consider return to some kind of that system eventually because when used right, it actually worked. Currently the priority difference is so small that it doesn't allow priorization of tasks within a job scope without getting everyone else involved unless there are some "unimportant" tasks at reduced rather than elevated priority.

[chemie]

For me the main game breaking thing was non-leveling athletics.  This made moving outside base near impossible.

The jobs are OK and I agree with Kasuha they should prioritize the job (5 dig > 5 build for digger)

The 1-5; 1*-5* was very clunky and non-intuitive and I think they could come up with something less confusing.

Either way, sounds like things will be playable next week which is good.

 

I am glad Klei "listens" (at least I assume it was the forumsl maybe it was their own testing but I like to think they listened which is not what all devs do)

Edited February 2, 2018 by chemie

[IvanX]

23 hours ago, Kasuha said:

Okay, I'm happy about return to 1-9 priorities, it gives me the resolution I was used to (if you liked 1-5, you can simply use 4-8 now with the same result).

I also like very much many of the changes (job station, capped stat leveling, all the bug fixes etc). They're good things and it's a great patch overall.

 

The only thing I kind of started liking was how duplicants preferred job-related tasks over other tasks. As soon as they were able to do all of their job (including deliveries or pre-build digs) it was actually pretty good and the only lingering aspect was tasks not covered by any currently occupied job. I hope devs will consider return to some kind of that system eventually because when used right, it actually worked. Currently the priority difference is so small that it doesn't allow priorization of tasks within a job scope without getting everyone else involved unless there are some "unimportant" tasks at reduced rather than elevated priority.

You can't really use 4-8 with the same idea. Not sure if you missed the UI in the 1-5 priority, but it wasn't really 1-5, it was 1-5,6-10 with an extra addition of job prioritization for first 5 and the last 5 stayed the same (job priority unaffected). You could even use shortcuts 6-9 for priorities of 1*-4*. So basically just like you said, you miss that part, that's the only thing that actually changed!

 

I really hate, how my miner quits mining 6 priority mining job to clean toilet with 8 priority or to deliver dirt to farms with 7, that could be done by assigned experts too busy at that point. There is absolutely nothing you can't do with 1-5 that you could do with 1-9. But there is so much you can't do with 1-9, that you could with 1-5...

Edited February 3, 2018 by IvanX
typo

[Byste]

16 minutes ago, Kasuha said:

The only thing I kind of started liking was how duplicants preferred job-related tasks over other tasks. As soon as they were able to do all of their job (including deliveries or pre-build digs) it was actually pretty good and the only lingering aspect was tasks not covered by any currently occupied job. I hope devs will consider return to some kind of that system eventually because when used right, it actually worked. Currently the priority difference is so small that it doesn't allow priorization of tasks within a job scope without getting everyone else involved unless there are some "unimportant" tasks at reduced rather than elevated priority.

Mixed feelings on this myself. I think it's fair to say that both systems have situations where it works better. I hope the next iteration of priority will resolve this, for now I'm just going to sit back and wait. They did say prio is getting the backburner for now and they will revisit it. One thing that I do like more about the live system is that it has more clarity than 1-5*. Regardless, both versions are much better than pre-occupation upgrade, I love having more control and transparency.

[ozymandias_3]

so ya'll got any good seeds to start fresh?

[Domelo]

Just played 30 cycles. It's great to see the dupes being productive, but i felt that the job system became way less critical.

And my conclusion on the priority system: 1-5* was simpler. Let me elaborate.

Within the 1-5* priority system, the dupes would focus on their jobs first (unless you put some *) and then go out to do side tasks. This system had minimal side effects. Rising the priority to 5 on a task would primarily affect the respective job, dupes from other jobs would only help on that task if they had nothing else to do. After all that, to manage their side tasks we would have to touch the tasks permits.

With the new 1-9, it's very easy to override the jobs inherent priority, diminishing the jobs "role" (alongside stat leveling), that makes the system very prone to side effects. For example, by leaving the priorities at 5 (standard) everyone will be properly doing their jobs, but as soon as you put some task with a 7 it requires you to pay attention to the task permissions, or else dupes from other jobs dupes will stop what they were doing to attend to it. If you instead try to raise the priorities for the other jobs tasks, you will also have to fiddle with the tasks permits and so on. The complexity that was taken care by the job system now goes back to the task permission panel.

 

For me, adjusting the dupes tasks is easily the most unpleasant thing to do in the game, I don't hate it (it's very useful), but the job system made me have to adjust less. With the 1-9, the previous specialization (without idling) is way more complex to achieve (but the dupes are "better" now). I imagine that both systems can be tuned to be almost perfect in some way, but with a relevant job system I feel that 1-5* makes more sense.

I wonder what would happen with stat leveling + 1-5*.

 

 

Edited February 2, 2018 by Domelo

[Mangrove]

But with the overrides/hidden priorities from the different jobs, there was no clear way of seeing in what order anything would get done

[Wedgebert]

I agree with IvanX and Domelo. I understand the new preferred/strict priority system took a minute to get used to, but it was way more effective.

Right now I can't tell my researcher to "research before doing anything else" without my other dupes rushing off to fill the supercomputer with water anytime it runs low. Either I forbid dupes from doing things that aren't their job to keep them focused, or everything I want done at a given time becomes the same higher priority.

Skill gain, while I do like dupes getting better, is back to being crazy again. Cycle 15 and a dupe has gone from 5/6 learning, to a permanent 15. And everyone is already at at least 5 athletics (although to be fair, most dupes started with +3 or so). I understand the pain of the later game with slow dupes, but now we're back to Superdupes

 

[Kasuha]

30 minutes ago, IvanX said:

it wasn't really 1-5, it was 1-5,6-10

It was 1-5,6-10 only in a sense. Priority 2 was "7 for my job, 2 for everyone else" while priority *2 was "7 for everyone". The job-related preference is what I do mention I'm missing.

My point is that 1-9 gives me resolution I need, because I have use for three to four priority levels below default and three to four priority levels above default (and that actually for a single job). 1-5 just won't do the trick, regardless of presence of job-related preference. While is 1-9 are too many priority levels for you, you may use 4-8.

What I'd consider best (but might be too cumbersome for other players) would be independent setting of priority for the job and for everyone else, both within the 1-9 range (or even 0-9 with 0 meaning "don't do it even if you're idle"). For example farm plots could be 8/0 - only farmer does it, nobody else. Important deodorizer could be 8/5 - done preferably by groundskeeper or gofer before everything else but also done by others if they're available. And some emergency jobs could be 9/9 - everyone come helping.

[TheOlz]

Very pleased with the changes.

Agree with some posts that the priority system still needs some balancing to favour job roles, but I much prefer 1-9 over the 1-5, 1*-5*

Jobs system is much like a research tree now for individual dupes, which I feel makes a lot more sense.  The longer a dupe survives and performs different tasks the stronger and more efficient they get - much, much better than the locked in, non stat retaining version.

I feel like this is a good spot as far as the 'super dupe' and decor/food requirements go - You will still hurt your colony if you rush everyone up to the highest job before you are prepared, but you aren't limited to snail like movement with all but a few dupes.

Thanks Klei for listening to and acting on the feedback!!  

Edited February 2, 2018 by TheOlz

[Roxanne4018]

I really feel like the jobs are useless now. I do appreciate the fact that stats level up again but the leveling up itself doesn't really makes sense.

In a new base I built the job station (which I don't like btw. they can't organize themselves before building a building LOL) first to assign jobs to my dupplicants. 1 dig 1 supply 1 build. It would make things really efficient the firsts cycles previously but now without the 1-5* priority my dupplicants would do the closest action accessible instead of their job. Whats the point of them working faster if they don't do their job? Plus it seems that the higher the level of a stat the more xp it takes to gain an other level so even though dupes keep the bonuses once they mastered a job, they don't really gain ''natural stats''. What happened is that my first duplicant who upgraded a skill (Digging) was a slow learner set as an architect. Talk about counter intuitive. 

1-5* Prority was SUPER simple. Dupes would do their jobs from priority 5-1 and when they had nothing to do they would help others. When wanted everyone to do a task you set the * and voila. I still don't understand why people would make such a big deal about it. For example I had no one set to a care job but because I set my medbey 5* dupes would get treated fast (especially when dupes allowed to treat others had a job that would improve their speed)

[Wedgebert]

16 minutes ago, Roxanne4018 said:

1-5* Prority was SUPER simple. Dupes would do their jobs from priority 5-1 and when they had nothing to do they would help others. When wanted everyone to do a task you set the * and voila. I still don't understand why people would make such a big deal about it. For example I had no one set to a care job but because I set my medbey 5* dupes would get treated fast (especially when dupes allowed to treat others had a job that would improve their speed)

I think the main issue was that the UI didn't present it very well. Once you figured it out, yeah it was a pretty simple system and more powerful than the standard one. There just needs to be a way to look at a dupe and see the order he would do jobs. 

1-9 might give you a finer control over things, but you literally cannot do as much with it, so in the end it's less powerful.

Hopefully this is just a temporary rollback as Klei works out the kinks in the new system.

[Surfinite]

4 hours ago, turbonl64 said:

The big news here is that normal attribute leveing is re-enabled at a lower max. This is actually great and will allow the player to choose his or her playing style, having either highly specialized dupes or very versatile dupes.

1

No it doesn't.  You can't play with specialised dupes now because there is no way to ensure your Miner dupe actually does mining, unless you restrict tasks so much that when there's little to do they're standing around idle.

 

3 hours ago, goboking said:

I just want to thank the devs for listening to community feedback.  It can't be easy to conceptualize a system and see your ideas and work criticized so strongly by what will ultimately be a very tiny portion of the player base.  It's also got to be hard balancing your vision for the game and what a bunch of anonymous players on a message board think.  So kudos for the update.

Yes it is a very tiny portion of the playerbase, and I don't know why they would let this tiny portion dictate changes that need to be made.  A much larger silent portion of the playerbase were completely happy with the update.  You're always going to get a larger percentage of the people that dislike something expressing their opinion, everyone that liked it (the majority) didn't expect that they'd have to speak up to keep a decent feature.

 

The occupation update is pointless without specialised prioritisation.  It's also pretty useless given that dupes can gain skill points again.  Why would I set jobs that increase the dupes decor and food requirements when I can wait a little and they'll have leveled up anyway.  The only reason to use them is to get the stations and allow dupes to mine hard materials, which is now just a frustrating little roadblock.

The only skill you had to care about before occupations was learning.  If that was high then you'd quickly level everything else up.  I'd have dupes with the lowest learning level do the research so that they levelled learning up solely so to increase the rate they improved at everything else.  This was no fun, but we're back to that now, otherwise, you're simply playing very inefficiently.

 

I've been playing every day since the occupation update became available, but its unfortunate that I'll have to stop until this is sorted as its just far too frustrating having specialised duplicants that don't do their jobs.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Surfinite

[Roxanne4018]

For skill leveling I suggested on an other post that dupes could only level up a skill if spending some time doing a job that goes with said skill. The ''Job Tree'' could then be used to access building and using higher tech. It would be more realistic: the researcher would ''find out'' about a new technology and someone skilled enough to put it in place would do so. Higher jobs could be achieved by reaching a certain level in a skill that mattered for it and maybe give a bonus that would allow to go pass the cap from a couple of levels.

[Surfinite]

Levelling applied only to the skill that relates to the job a duplicant has is a very good idea, but only if they fix the priorities!  If the priorities are 1-9 without job task preference then we really need to keep all the ways of having dupes be as general purpose as possible, which means all skill levelling.

You simply can't have specialised dupes and then not have an option for them to prioritise the task they're good at. it makes no sense at all.

 

2 hours ago, Gordon Frohman said:

I absolutely hate this change....

The 5+5* Priority system was so much better than this, it's ridiculous. Cooks would Cook, and nothing else until the cooking was done. Miners would mine, and nothing else until the mining was done. It worked so well out of the box with no manual fiddling with the priority system.

This is a huge step backwards, and I absolutely hate it. The new hats are cool, and I'm glad leveling is back, but the 5+5* priority system was probably my favorite change to date. I came home today excited to play and honestly, I don't even wanna anymore.

2

I couldn't agree more with this, I just don't want to play after these changes.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Surfinite

[SkunkMaster]

Getting used to 1-5* was strange, but after 10 minutes i fell in love with it. I could put 5 on grills and 4 on the musher and know my cooks would priotize grilling over mushing... now everyone who has no job at over 4 is going mushing... and my cooks stand without anything to do... GREAT.

 

Here is a suggestion, if the community is SO split about this, why not just put in a option to swap, Those who like 1-9 can go with it, those who want 1-5* can change it in the settings. ? best of both worlds, everyone happy.

[jigggy2000]

32 minutes ago, SkunkMaster said:

Getting used to 1-5* was strange, but after 10 minutes i fell in love with it. I could put 5 on grills and 4 on the musher and know my cooks would priotize grilling over mushing... now everyone who has no job at over 4 is going mushing... and my cooks stand without anything to do... GREAT.

From my understanding of how it was before was clicking that * button would change everything to how it was originally but with the exception of having only a max priority of 5 (instead of 9). This confused people? if clicking a single button is too confusing perhaps just keep the 1 - 9 priority system with no change. But keep that * button to switch back to the "advanced" option of having dupes prioritize based on their roles/jobs. That way players who don't seem to grasp the mechanics of the new job prioritization just have to steer clear of that button. Don't touch it and everything stays the same. 

I think keeping things the same by default should be the way to go for designing these sorts of things so that players that like familiarity don't have to do anything and players who want to try new way of doing things can give them a go by simply clicking that single * button. The interesting thing is all I've done is switch the way it was designed before by simple switching wat that single button does. 

32 minutes ago, SkunkMaster said:

Here is a suggestion, if the community is SO split about this, why not just put in a option to swap, Those who like 1-9 can go with it, those who want 1-5* can change it in the settings. ? best of both worlds, everyone happy.

That button (from my understanding) practically did what you described. Except for that 1-9 option of course. 

[Foefaller]

Going back to 1-9 from 1-5* Kinda reminds me of that Rick & Morty clip where Morty gets to experience true level.

I can understand why you want to go back and iron out the bugs, but it really was the superior way to run the base once you figured out the quirks.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Foefaller

[SkunkMaster]

After playing this patch for some time now, i can say it is worse then it was before.. My architect is now mining, even though she has mining TURNED OFF in the job ui, just cause some mine job has a higher priority then the buildings...

In the "old days" if i turned of digging, the dupe wouldn't dig, no matter what... now the dupes do what ever they want. yeah, going back was a great idea. Please do give the guy who had it a big medal...

[Guest]

2 hours ago, SkunkMaster said:

After playing this patch for some time now, i can say it is worse then it was before.. My architect is now mining, even though she has mining TURNED OFF in the job ui, just cause some mine job has a higher priority then the buildings...

In the "old days" if i turned of digging, the dupe wouldn't dig, no matter what... now the dupes do what ever they want. yeah, going back was a great idea. Please do give the guy who had it a big medal...

Atleast stuff now is getting done in the base. Before buildings with dig jobs where left unattended for a long time, even with 40+ dupes!

I'd also like to give that guy a medal, but unlike you in a none-sarcastic way.