Wigfrid is considered OP? Why..!?

[JohnWatson]

Proof that Wolfgang will always be better than Wigfrid.

(Yes, I know I should have used a Campfire)

[FTR]

This is not proof of anything. Giants it's just small percentage of your DST activities (overall very small). Yes, Wolfgang is great boss killer, but Wigfrid is way more reliable and consistent through the rest 95% of the game.

You better compare total food consumed through 100 days and total damage dealt through 100 days (if there is mod that allow that), you will clearly see who is the winner. Wigfrid will be years ahead of Wolfgang that spent many of his days in whimpy form and most of his time in his normal form while still eating more food than anyone else and not contributing with armors/helmet and not having lifesteal like Wigfrid.

Wig is also way better tank.

[HomShaBom]

You're insane. Wigfrid only lost 3 more health but Wolfgang lost 30 more sanity. And you don't take into account the extra resources required by Wolfgang. Even if you think killing deerclops 11 seconds faster is worth the increased cost in resources and higher sanity loss, you haven't proved that wolfgang is always better than wigfrid. You proved that you think wolfgang is better in 1 very specific situation where nobody actually plays like that.

Feed Wolfgang 2 Taffy to counter that extra sanity drain and then he's lost 3 more hp than wigfrid. And it's going to take a lot more to restore that lost HP and sanity for Wolfgang than it will for Wigfrid. Wigfrid doesn't even blink at that HP and Sanity loss.

[Electroely]

42 minutes ago, JohnWatson said:

Proof that Wolfgang will always be better than Wigfrid.

 

I'm not even going to bother this time.

Have fun maintaining that hunger of yours and restoring that lost health and sanity! (Which btw is gunna take u more time than it till for Wigfrid)

[JohnWatson]

37 minutes ago, HomShaBom said:

No, you're wrong. And then you proved yourself wrong.

Oh okay, the "I should convince him that he proved himself wrong" technique. Like the thousandth time I have seen this on the internet.

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The fact that you can justify Wes by saying he's designed to make the game harder is all the proof that you need that it is not objectively terrible game design. You just provided an example yourself where lack of balance is not objectively terrible game design.

I specifically said that Wes is an exception because he is specifically designed to be suboptimal and he was made that way years before DST even existed. 

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And in a game where people are working together character balance is even less important because you're able to help eachother out.

You're right, and you can help each other out even more by not picking underpowered characters. 

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The reason Willow needs work is not because "she's bad" it's because she doesn't provide anything. A character can be "bad" if they can provide something that no one else can. Willow's lighter just doesn't cut it. It's an expensive torch with a tiny light radius

I don't get it, you said balancing is not important, but then immediately you're now suggesting to balance a character.

 

I understand that balancing and game design is an unfamiliar concept for players. This is evident when you look at any game's suggestion forum, their ideas will mostly be bad for the game and they usually don't address the real issues.

Balancing the characters is important because as much as possible you should avoid characters getting played solely because they're more powerful than others. Join a couple of public servers and your Encounters list will be flooded by Wigfrids.

To be honest, the only characters I want changed are Willow and Wilson, because they have nothing going for them. Their abilities are underwhelming and you're better off playing any other character. Playing Wickerbottom already automatically makes you a better version of Wilson.

-----

Oh, and about the video. That's just a Wolfgang propaganda joke video. Wolfgang's real special ability which I think make him one of the best is his speed boost. I know that Wigfrid and Wolfgang have their own strengths and weaknesses.

[JohnWatson]

Still don't understand why the forums are huge fans of Wigfrid while r/dontstarve are huge fans of Wolfgang

Oh, and since when did this thread become serious discussion? I actually meant to post that video a few days ago when people were still joking around with Wigfrid vs Wolfgang but I was too lazy.

[Begeesy]

On 12/20/2016 at 1:11 PM, HomShaBom said:

Wigfrid is overall the best combat character. Wolfgang has a higher maximum damage output, but he's more high maintenance. He requires more food, more healing, and more sanity restoration.

In combat, to maintain his damage bonus, Wolfgang has to keep his face stuffed with food that he quickly burns through at a higher rate than any other character. He can reach up to 2x damage, but you will never maintain 2x damage for a full fight unless you're wasting calories. As soon as his stomach drops from 300 to 299 his damage bonus is already declining. Wigfrid has no food requirement for her permanent 1.25x damage bonus and she has a normal metabolism.

Most of the things you will be fighting are monsters and Wolfgang loses sanity at a greater rate than any other character near monsters. Wigfrid on the hand gains sanity when she's fighting monsters. She can't eat Taffy, but she never needs to.

Since Wolfgang can kill things faster, he should end up taking less damage. The faster a thing dies, the sooner it stops dealing damage, but Wigfrid has an advantage here as well. Wigfrid inherently takes 25% less damage (which I haven't even seen anyone mention), and she's healed when she kills something. Healing salves and poultices are not necessary for Wigfrid.

Warning: Math below

  Reveal hidden contents

 

If a mob does 100 damage per hit, a Wigfrid with a Battle Helm will only take 15 damage per hit, and the helmet will take 60 damage per hit (I might be wrong, I'm not sure when Wigfrid's incoming damage reduction gets applied, maybe the helmet will take full damage wigfrid herself will take 75% or the entire hit is reduced by 75% first before applying armor, i'm not quite sure). A Wolfgang with a Football Helmet will take 20 damage per hit, and the helmet will take 80 damage per hit. Wigfrid's Battle Helm will last for 12.5 hits. Wolfgang's Football Helmet will last for 5.625 hits. Even 2 Football Helmets on Wolfgang would not last as long as a single Battle Helm on Wigfrid.

12 hits using 2 Football Helmets on Wolfgang would end with Wolfgang taking 300 damage. That's a dead Wolfgang.

12 hits using a single Battle Helm on Wigfrid would end with Wigfrid taking 180 damage. She's not dead, and when she kills the thing she's healed for 25 health & sanity

 

Wigfrid can go full play throughs without ever requiring healing items, sanity items, or sleeping. Health or Sanity low? No problem, go clear out a spider den. And while you're at it you're collecting meat that be cooked, dried, turned to eggs, turned to gold, farming silk for boomerangs, fishing rods, bird nets, bug nets, insulated clothing, or top hats and spider glands for other puny characters to use

we never tried to beat tankfrid wigfrid in her own game, we just said that gang is best for anyone who wants the most out of their hits.

why would you face-tank while you can kite?

[HomShaBom]

When you point out the fact that there is an exception, then it's not objectively true. It is your subjective opinion that it's OK to have an imbalanced character in Wes, so you can't say it's objectively bad. Because that's how the word "objectively" works.

[HomShaBom]

44 minutes ago, Begeesy said:

we never tried to beat tankfrid wigfrid in her on game, we just said that gang is best for anyone who wants the most out of their hits.

why would you face-tank while you can kite?

I never said you should face tank. Armor was brought up in this thread by other people so I was showing how wigfrid's helmet is better armor than a football helmet. That guy JohnWatson who liked your post is really the one who thinks people are supposed to face tank the deerclops, according to the video that proves wolfgang is always better.

[mikesdaman]

Me: here's a bunch of facts and situations where Wigfrid is better suited as a tank, while also being the safer option because of no animation pauses/feeding yourself 24/7 in battle and-

 

6 hours ago, JohnWatson said:

Proof that Wolfgang will always be better than Wigfrid.

(deerclops fight)

 

[CaptainFun]

6 hours ago, Electroely said:

:/ I don't think DST characters be changed, except for Willow maybe. Everyone I know enjoys the game as-is, even if it's too easy. It's still fun.

Woodie is currently the opposite of fun. 

[Trenix]

On 12/21/2016 at 0:10 AM, Donke60 said:

Well you would have a point if DS was orginally designed and DST were orginally designed with PvP in mind but it wasn't so it created this kind of problem that really isn't that big. While I do agree a little with reimagining the characters to better balanced for eachother that isn't the case and I'm find with it not being the point is if you are having fun with your character that is the only thing that matters. You like thinking of DST from a PvP standpoint and that is find but that isn't the focus of the game and never was and it will probably never get the attention you want it to get. And I think you are wrong with every character would be balenced for PvP then PvE but imo your wrong that would mean that it would be increasing harder to play alone or with just a few peolple. PVP and PvE are two seprete systems and should be treated as such unless the game was made to focus on the PVP aspect which don't starve wasn't so I find your agurment weak Trenix 

You're making a lot of assumptions. Just because I want PvP doesn't mean I only look at this game through that viewpoint. That's just something you're trying to formulate in order to discredit me. The problem with this game and it's character design is that while the game was moved over into a multiplayer atmosphere, we have neither cooperation aspects nor PvP aspects. Basically, there is no multiplayer atmosphere, besides the fact of seeing other players within your singleplayer game. None of these characters have any ounce of balance. Sure they've been tweaked, but even that I believe was almost completely meaningless because characters are still broken, which can be overlooked in a PvE game, because as long as everyone can take advantage of a character, it's all good.

Also you would think that if the game was going to ignore PvP that at the very least cooperation would get plenty of recognition, nope. All I'm seeing is content, but no improvements to cooperation. If the game is ever going to improve cooperative gameplay, you're going to need to start with the character first, which doesn't appear to be happening anytime soon. In all honesty, lot of these updates should be in DS rather than DST. As for PvP and PvE, you're entirely wrong. Games which are focused on PvP always have a balanced PvE with it. Games that focus on PvE always have a poor and barely functional PvP.

Lets be honest, most people are buying this as the expansion of DS while I bought this game for the multiplayer aspect of it, which doesn't exist. So of course people are happy, they get another DLC in their singleplayer game while I get a handful of public servers which get broken with griefers. So let me summarize, the direction of this game has been about the continuation of singleplayer, rather than improving multiplayer whether it's cooperation or even PvP.
 

On 12/21/2016 at 7:29 AM, Rellimarual said:

I think that other players (in cooperative mode -- PvP just seems like a gimmick for the kind of person who obsessses about whether Spider-Man could beat Batman rather than a version of the actual game -- ARE the challenge. It's really easy to survive in DST on your own. Other players might help you, but they are just as likely to be a drain on resources that contributes little or just a distraction from something important that leads to disaster. 

The challenge of DS is not fighting monsters but juggling a whole array of needs and dangers, foreseen and unforeseen, figuring out what can wait and what can't, finding new and creative ways to solve problems and cope with unexpected threats. Other players are one of those factors, and the most unpredictable of all. They might be amazing additions or they could get you killed. I was really resistant to multiplayer until I realized this.

PvP is also exactly what you're talking about. PvP isn't just FFA. You can ally or make enemies. Your ally may steal your stuff, he may backstab you. It's all game and it adds an unknown challenge. In cooperative PvP, people just backstab you and you can't do a single thing about it.

[Serph]

You have to look from the eyes of newbie to understand. Inexperienced players will die more often from enemies than starvation, fighting is simply harder than working. It's only "logical" that they think the character that starts with fighting gear and drains hp is superior. Also remember Wigfrid was never intended to be Wolfgang rival or "lol easy mode", she and Webber were made for the DLC to give veterans a new kind of playstyle.

 

[XBloodRaven]

I always thought it was dumb that Wigfrids max hunger is 120 and can only eat meat yet the best thing to eat which is meat (Meaty Stew) gives 150 hunger so your wasting 30 food if you make them so its not really worth making as Wigfrid. :/ 

[Rellimarual]

Meaty stew is not the best for Wigfrid, jerky or bacon and eggs is. Wig has to carry food around with her at all times. She pretty much can't make it through the day without eating. Unless you want to spend every night in the base, she needs something that keeps awhile even in summer, and meaty stew spoils too fast.

[LuxuryHeart]

I'm done!  I've literally seen it all now.  LMAO!

 

Anyway, I personally don't like Wigfrid either, and I prefer Wolfgang to her.  Though I prefer Willow and Wilson the most since they have decent stats without many cons; Willow is my absolute favorite though.

Wolfgang is a great character, though I hate how I constantly have to eat in order to make a great use of his strength.  It gets annoying when you're low on food, and then he turns into weak Wolfgang.

[AnonymousKoala]

12 hours ago, FTR said:

This is not proof of anything. Giants it's just small percentage of your DST activities (overall very small). Yes, Wolfgang is great boss killer, but Wigfrid is way more reliable and consistent through the rest 95% of the game.

You better compare total food consumed through 100 days and total damage dealt through 100 days (if there is mod that allow that), you will clearly see who is the winner. Wigfrid will be years ahead of Wolfgang that spent many of his days in whimpy form and most of his time in his normal form while still eating more food than anyone else and not contributing with armors/helmet and not having lifesteal like Wigfrid.

Wig is also way better tank.

If you spend many days in wimpy form you're not a good golfwank for the most part haha. That's like playing Wig but never making armors and or spears. You're missing the entire point.

Feeding Wolfgang isn't hard with how abundant food is. Wigfrid is a tanker which gives the team armor that's above a football helm but below a thule crown, Wolfgang gives the team food with his might since he is the better fighter. Even if you don't upkeep the max hunger, you're going to want to be close to it to deal more damage and that isn't hard. 

As said before, the meta will be the meta. Wolfgang, Wicker and WX will forever be the top tier characters. Meta.

[JohnWatson]

On 12/21/2016 at 10:51 AM, HomShaBom said:

When you point out the fact that there is an exception, then it's not objectively true. It is your subjective opinion that it's OK to have an imbalanced character in Wes, so you can't say it's objectively bad. Because that's how the word "objectively" works.

Along with every other character, Wes was released years before DST was even announced. Singleplayer games and Multiplayer games are balanced very differently from each other. In Singleplayer, it does not matter at all if you have overpowered and underpowered characters. In Multiplayer, however, it's important that you have people playing each character equally. That's the main reason why they made such significant changes to characters like WX78, Willow, and Maxwell. If balancing is so unnecessary, then why did Klei bother to make balancing changes to the characters? The reason why I and many others are making balance suggestions is because Klei, while they're magnificent game devs, they're not perfect, and they know that. Any game developer worth their salt will know that feedback is important because they know they have flaws and aren't perfect, that's the reason why the Suggestions and Feedback subforum exists.

Look, I get that you think balancing is not important because "you can help each other", but as I said, you can help each other out even more by choosing the best characters. Character synergy still matters when balancing. For instance, the trio Wolfgang, WX78, and Wickerbottom is probably the most effective synergy. Wolfgang is the main source of damage output, and his hunger can be satiated by Wickerbottom. Wickerbottom is amazing both early-game setup and late-game resource farming, and she has effectively no downsides. WX78 is permanent tank when fully-upgraded, and his overload state is ridiculously powerful which can be easily triggered by Wickerbottom for very little cost and the overload duration even stacks indefinitely for every lightning strike. Maybe throw in Wendy or Maxwell in there too, for meat farming or log gathering, Wolfgang makes up for their low damage output and low max health. You could have Wigfrid replace Wolfgang and she can provide some nice gear early-game, yes, but you lose out on a lot of potential damage and she can only eat meat.

And you keep ignoring that you're actively arguing against balancing while you are also suggesting balance changes yourself. I have pointed that out several times yet you choose not to respond. I don't get it, make up your mind, mate.

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I never said you should face tank. Armor was brought up in this thread by other people so I was showing how wigfrid's helmet is better armor than a football helmet. That guy JohnWatson who liked your post is really the one who thinks people are supposed to face tank the deerclops, according to the video that proves wolfgang is always better.

Wigfrid's main selling point is her tanking ability, so why are you bringing kiting into this? If you dodge hits instead of face-tanking, then Wolfgang would actually be better. If you take no hits, then your damage output matters more than your damage mitigation. Wolfgang, with his x2 damage modifier, will actually beat Wigfrid's time by a more significant margin. Wolfgang's speed bonus also allows him to kite more mobs and more effectively, and a lot of players can actually say that it's his main selling point. Did you know that Wolfgang is the only character that can dodge the Dragonfly's attacks?

And I like how you all conveniently ignored how Wolfgang ended the Deerclops fight 66% quicker than Wigfrid did and saved 23% more health. Also even with worse gear, he beat the Deerclops 26% quicker and saved 2% more health. And that's when they're face-tanking the Deerclops. How Wolfgang even beats Wigfrid at her own specialty says a lot. And in the video, notice how I didn't use a Campfire for the video. Had I used a Campfire, I would have avoided freezing and killed the Deerclops significantly faster with Wolfgang.

I believe Wigfrid is better suited for fighting groups of mobs that don't take a lot of hits to kill, while Wolfgang is better off for fighting bosses with high health pools. The thing is, Wolfgang is still good for fighting mobs, he can even one-shot Spiders with the Ham Bat, which is one of the reasons why I think Wolfgang is just better than Wigfrid.

And come on, she can only eat meat! She can't eat Berries, she can't eat Juicy Berries, she can't eat Roasted Birchnuts, she can't eat Butterfly Wings, she can't eat Butter, she can't eat Butter Muffins, she can't eat Mandrakes, she can't eat Honey, she can't eat Ice, she can't eat Waffles, she can't eat Flower Salads, she can't eat Blue Caps, she can't eat Cooked Green Caps, she can't eat Trail Mix, she can't eat Cooked Cactus Flesh, she can't eat Taffy, and she can't eat even eat Ice Cream. She loses out on a lot of healing and sanity restoration items, which actually means it's significantly harder to manage her health and sanity than with Wolfgang.

Also, I guess these are also what convinced me that Wolfgang is superior to Wigfrid: A, B 

On 12/21/2016 at 3:47 PM, mikesdaman said:

Me: here's a bunch of facts and situations where Wigfrid is better suited as a tank, while also being the safer option because of no animation pauses/feeding yourself 24/7 in battle and-

You don't need to feed yourself 24/7 when fighting, his hunger doesn't even drain as fast as people think. His Mighty form lasts for 3.91 minutes (Using math, you would get a result of 4.28 minutes, however I tested it in-game and it lasts for 3.91 minutes). Yes, his damage bonus is linearly proportional, which means he can't maintain a constant x2 damage modifier. However, you can just bring a couple of roasted berries and eat one every 31 seconds, which takes less than a second. Eating a berry every half a minute is not "constant maintenance", and by the time you need to eat a berry, you would still have a good x1.88 damage modifier (112 damage with Ham Bat).

And I can't understand why you fellows think that Wolfgang is extremely hard to maintain. I never had troubles maintaining his hunger and sanity, and actually had an easier time maintaining him than with other characters. Food is so abundant in this game that his hunger drain barely matters. His proficiency in combat and speed boost means you could gather food and resources more often, essentially compensating for his downside. And if you play with a Wendy or Wickerbottom, then you don't need to worry about hunger anymore.

And every time I see a discussion about balance, people seem to bring up sanity a lot, and I keep repeating the same response: Sanity is extremely easy to manage. All it takes is some cooked cactus flesh, and there, you're back to full sanity. Wolfgang actually has less sanity problems than other characters because he ends fights up to twice as fast, which means up to 45% less sanity lost. Even if you go insane, it's not that difficult to dodge the nightmares. There are players who just run around with zero sanity because the nightmares are effectively just free fuel for them. Wolfgang also deals with them easier, again because of his high damage output. That means more free nightmare fuel at a faster rate.

[Xedlord]

On Sunday, December 18, 2016 at 0:58 PM, AlbertDelRiver said:

 

 

 

[Atsumame]

14 hours ago, JohnWatson said:

Still don't understand why the forums are huge fans of Wigfrid while r/dontstarve are huge fans of Wolfgang

Oh, and since when did this thread become serious discussion? I actually meant to post that video a few days ago when people were still joking around with Wigfrid vs Wolfgang but I was too lazy.

It's mostly because a lot of people from the subreddit are endgame/very experienced players.

Those people (including myself) like wolfgang better simply because food is never a problem nor is sanity, to those players every wolfgang downsides are meaningless.

Most people on the forum are either beginners or simply don't see the point of playing after one in-game year. To those people wolfgang downsides seems bad to them. 

 

Also wig can't drink coffee lol

[JohnWatson]

16 hours ago, Atsumame said:

It's mostly because a lot of people from the subreddit are endgame/very experienced players.

Those people (including myself) like wolfgang better simply because food is never a problem nor is sanity, to those players every wolfgang downsides are meaningless.

Most people on the forum are either beginners or simply don't see the point of playing after one in-game year. To those people wolfgang downsides seems bad to them. 

Even if you don't aim for long-term survival, Wolfgang is still pretty amazing for the first 100 days. It's really just because inexperienced players don't know how to manage their hunger and sanity well. Also, almost every guide I see mislead new players into believing that Meatballs are the absolute best food and should be the only food they cook and eat for the rest of their lives. Thus, they don't know that other food with beneficial effects exist, like Blue Caps, Trail Mix, Cooked Cacti, and Taffy and they don't know how important it is to be able to access those kinds of food. New players also don't know how to kite and just rely on armor.

With all those above factors, Wigfrid becomes a common choice for the inexperienced DST player.

She can't even drink coffee lol

[mikesdaman]

3 hours ago, JohnWatson said:

long post is long

     Regarding to whole 3.91 minute thing, that's the reason why I said Wigfrid would be better has a tank in certain situations. The whole reason for my original long post about Wigfrid and Wolfgang was to prove points as to why people see Wigfrid op and why she is better in certain situations. For most bosses, no, she isn't. The Deerclops video was one of those situations. Because head-on tactics is not what she is best at (honestly, it's like saying Wickerbottom is better than Wolfgang because she has books for support and Wolfgang doesn't). If there's anything that Wigfrid is best at, it's dealing with swarms of enemies and taking as little damage as possible. For end-game bosses, such as Toadstool, Bee queen, Klaus, etc, she's more suited for taking the inevitable damage while another person (preferably Wolfgang) attacks the boss.  You can read all about Wigfrid being a tank on the older post, but the general point I was making was that Wigfrid can take that damage that another player attacking the boss would take, such as in the case of grumble bees or lavae. If you think that the damage output Wolfgang deals out and his health is better spent on those minions instead of the boss, then by all means go ahead and do that. In a realistic situation for online servers, yeah, you'd want Wigfrid to tank instead of other players to get the most damage output while mitigating health loss for everyone.

 

     Also, every other point in which I brought up the "challenges" of Wolfgang and micromanaging was to provide a reason as to why Wigfrid is more appealing to new players (more on that in the original post), not that Wigfrid is definitely better than Wolfgang because of that. No character is really entirely better than the other entirely ^{(unless you're talking about wes being the best)}  The sad part is that I've already covered a lot of this in my other post. No, Wigfrid is not better than Wolfgang. No, Wolfgang is not better than Wigfrid. And yes, new players over use Wigfrid because her play style is easily adaptable and she provides a more relaxed play style (casual amirite?//?).

 

Last post I'm making on this. Hopefully this cleared up any confusion on what I think about Wigfrid and Wolfgang.

 

And if any of you are wondering why I'm not bringing up SW, single player RoG or vanilla...

[TitanCat]

I'm really tempted to make a new post but with voting

But this topic won't be going anywhere. Everyone keeps idolizing either one of these Chracters

Even though both Wifgrid and Wolfgang are two completely different character with different playstyle

Because anyone can say that that Webber is cause he can build an army or Wendy cause of her sister Abigail

None of them are OP or better than the other

[Electroely]

6 hours ago, JohnWatson said:

Did you know that Wolfgang is the only character that can dodge the Dragonfly's attacks?

Wrong. Any character can. Without speed modifiers.

[JohnWatson]

I think the discussion should continue, I'm actually enjoying it because I like these friendly exchange of rebuttals. Why do people keep insisting on ending discussions when two parties disagree with each other? Personally, I enjoy reading long arguments because I can learn something from them and I like it even more if I can participate myself. It's only bad if someone is expressing hostility towards others, and there is no sign of hostility in this current thread.

One thing I still don't understand is how nobody except me brought up the fact that she can only eat meat, a very significant downside. And when I bring it up, nobody bothered to argue against it. She loses out on a lot of healing and sanity restoration food, that actually means she's a lot harder to manage than Wolfgang. Yes, Wolfgang requires more hunger management, but food is so abundant and available to be eaten at all times, while Wigfrid outright cannot eat most types of food. The healing and sanity restoring Crock Pot dishes, along with Blue Caps and Cooked Cactus Flesh, really make health and sanity extremely easy to manage, but Wigfrid absolutely cannot take advantage of them.

She can't drink coffee!!!! Seriously, SHE CAN'T DRINK COFFEE!

@Electroely Yes, any character can by trapping the Dragonfly between Fire Pits, by using roads, or by using the Walking Cane. Though, Wolfgang is the only character that can dodge her naturally. WX78 while overloaded too.