Wigfrid is considered OP? Why..!?

[artemiyME]

@Begeesy sup cheesy strats, yeah i know your silly face, thanks for server plug! ^_^

i think to compare character OP'ness you might consider counting instances what one character can do which none other can, no matter what point in game.

[FTR]

On 31.12.2016 at 10:05 PM, Begeesy said:

I take this as "when fighting mobs you get more hp more than you lose, mobs being a main source of damage"

when low on hp (which everyone does otherwise you never died in don't starve) you may have to take trips to clustered mobs like the example shown in your video.

Lifesteal is comparable to how you get healing items when killing animals with any character but you can't store lifesteal when your full on stats (for the animals that don't, hunger is easily translated into health/sanity via tent). For example, a spider gives you a 25% gland for 8 hp or 20 with salves, 25% silk that could be use for top hat or creating tents, or 50% monstermeat hunger that could be translated into hp. I could just kill spiders 2 times faster (2 hits divided by 1 hit ignoring his 1.25 speed) as wolfgang and get more than lifesteal and not have to suffer from not being able to take advantage of mushrooms, cacti or any other nonmeat food. Its basically the argument "1 extra spider loot is better than 4 hp and sanity" since 1x loot cancel out.

getting hit is inevitable for any player so it's not far away from unpreventable. If it was soo preventable wigfrid's built-in armor and easy helms wouldn't even matter which is majority of what she brings to the table, so don't try that argument bud. Anyways, you get 135 sanity (15 extra to negate dusk in the video) at the cost of 43.2 damage to your helmet which is less than half of 90ish damage your helmet took.  So even with a football helmet, cacti would've lost less durability.

You don't have to take trips, you can use healing food/items when neccessary. It's just that having lifesteal ability and having option not to use any healing items even if low on hp when you know that you can safely kill few spiders to get it all back up, its huge convenience and possibly allows you to save tons of resources over time, or lifesaver if you happen not to have any healing stuff on you (like on the super long trip in winter). Also as I said before, your healing does not have to being when at 1 health, it begins when you are 199/200 health.

Your Wolfgang-gets-more-loot argument is correct but you don't take into account a lot variables like hunger loss, the fact that you don't, obviously, get that loot x2 faster (but I get to this point later), weapon durability you would potentially have to sacrafice, time and circumstances, or that Wolfgang needs that loot, Wigfrid doesn't. You seem to forget that lifesteal works on any monster, not just spiders.

Of course you will get hit from time to time, that's why having easy access to cheap powerful battle helms is just so good. You will never have to look at those ugly pigs ever again.

I lost 12% durability which is 90 points of damage which is as much as you would get gathering 15 cacti. Almost the same value in sanity, and you don't need to waste who knows how much time gathering and cooking them.

One more thing I realized is that Wolfgang actually needs at least hambat/tentacle to be able to 1 shot spiders, because otherwise he is no different than Wigfrid with huge downside. When you have hambat it's all fine, but are you willing to waste precious durability of tentacle spike/dark sword on petty spiders?

 

On 1.01.2017 at 0:21 AM, CarlZalph said:

Wolfgang isn't as efficient compared to others, sure.

This seems to be a crux of your argument and everything else is revolving around it: efficiency.

It shouldn't matter how efficient you are so long as the net gain is better so you're always bringing in profit.

Well I mostly disagree. I think efficiency is all this game (and perhaps other survival games) is about. You die from lack of resources, not because you couldn't handle combat. Combat in this game is very basic, it's not like anything can 1 shot you. It's all about resources, as long as you have them, you will be fine. As long as you can heal, you will be fine. That's also possibly best advice to any new player in ds. Conserve resources, get more whenever you can and be prepared.

 

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Also backpack ditching lets you use boss drop items which are pretty good, such as the eyebrella, and if caverns are enabled then the belt of hunger if you really don't want to worry about food.

You don't need football helmet when you are not in combat, which is majority of your dst time. So you can wear eyebella just fine. I suppose backpack is matter of preference, but you can't argue that you can bring more loot on one trip than without backpack, which is the whole point. Backpack waterproof perk can also be extremely useful.

And krampus sack is just too good.

 

On 1.01.2017 at 0:21 AM, AlbertDelRiver said:

How am I a hypocrite? I had admitted that Wigfrid is more flexible than Wolfgang and that they shouldn't be compared, as I was agreeing with @CaptainChaotica and @GiddyGuy

I thought Wigfrid was literal trash before this post, but my way of thinking of towards her has completely flipped.

 

The fact you kept comparing Wolfgang and Wigfrid character and ability after I posted that goes to show you don't ever let anyone have peace.

That's not peace because we are not having a war, we are having a discussion.

That thread just made me realize how bad Wolfgang really is. I thought he is more useful than just being amazing boss killer before I ran my tests. I had one solo dst playthrough with him, using his mighty form whenever I needed that while trying to be as efficient as possible, and I thought he is decent just not very good for efficiency and below average for solo run, except bosses which is why I picked him in the first place, but even after killing Dragonfly few times I realized it's not even worth it. 

 

On 3.01.2017 at 2:46 AM, JohnWatson said:

@AlbertDelRiver superfast isn't even arguing against Wolfgang. He's just saying that we shouldn't be only playing one character because that limits  how much we learn.

Personally, I don't have a "main" character. So, I kind of agree with him. I'm just staying on this thread because there are guys like FTR calling Wolfgang absolute useless, when he's one of the greatest characters. 

He is the best at what he does, but then you realize that's not what you really need. He is greatest boss killer though, that I agree with.

 

On 4.01.2017 at 10:40 PM, Begeesy said:

I haven't had any first/second hand experience with this but I feel like this is because most healing is nonmeat food which wigfrid can't eat in the first place therefore she suffers less than other players if you take away all foods.

Um? There is literally ONE meal Wigfrid can't eat that I can think of that is decent for health, which is Dragonpie.

The entire rest, Pierogis, Fishsticks, Honey Ham, Honey Nuggets, Turkey Dinner, Bacon and Eggs gives loads of health and Wigfrid can eat those just fine. Those also happen to be the best meals in the game.

 

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This is not OP because SHE CAN ONLY EAT MEAT! This is a superficial point which is similar to FTR's point that she can kill deerclops by tanking with her intial gear. We already know that wigfrid have a great initial but is that all she offers? 

 

Is that all? Let's think.

She has cheap battle spears for everyone, which are better than regular spear

She has cheap battle helms for everyone, which are way better than regular football helmet and save you time you would have to waste to get pig skins

She has amazing lifesteal which meals she uses less resources to heal herself and restore her sanity

^Because of that she is less likely to ever die and go insane

Tankiness which also saves your precious resources

And she still has more damage than any other character in the game other than Wolfgang

 

Well I guess, great initial is all she has?

 

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Finally someone talking in familiar territory, if PVP was took in consideration the argument would've been over a long time ago. She's only good for spawn camping in pvp as a gang can dig up blue caps, hammer pig and bunny houses for unlimited supply of food, healing, and armor.

I specifically not talk about pvp in this thread because I absolutely despise pvp in DST. Characters imbalance which is mainly irrelevant in cooperation, matters hugely when you do pvp.

So I am not really going to talk about pvp. This is topic for entire new discussion, and not with me.

 

23 hours ago, Begeesy said:

umm yeah, lifesteal is basically a compromise (that's not necessarily better than) for not eating nonmeat healing so if you take one away, the other one would obviously be better(taking out all foods takes out nonmeat healing in the challenge). My point is that challenge is shifted in wigfrid's favor much like 'everything lots' challenge for wolfgang. I feel like you was talking about without the challenge.

Eating nonmeat foods doesn't matter. It only matters early game, until you get crock pot. After that you completly forget about meat only diet downside.

 

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If you're low on meat you're definitely lower on sanity since you can't store lifesteal (when your stats are full) but you can store hunger though meat.

So what is this, you are low or meat or not? Or you compare Wigfrid that's low on meat vs Wolfgang that has loads or meat? Then how does it make any sense?

If they both have meat, Wolfgang can go mighty and Wigfrid can do whatever she pleases.

If they both are short of meat, Wigfrid can still do whatever she pleases and Wolfgang is ****ed.

 

Ok so there is little test I did, a simple Koalefant hunt with Wigfrid and Wolfgang. There are people claiming Wolfgang is SUCH superior hunter and that speed & damage matters SO MUCH, so I decided to actually test the difference.

Why I choose Koalefant? Well I think this is the best for comparison because it's fairly predictable and it also includes a little bit of everything (combat, running, eating, "looting"), in about same proportions as the whole of dst actions you perform. So it's perfect representative of what you do at typical "food hunt".

No need to watch this unless you think I am dirty liar

Here are my results:

Wigfrid
Number of tracks: 8
Time it took to find and kill Koalefant: 1:19
Total Hunger loss: 13

Wolfgang
Number of tracks: 8
Time it took to find and kill Koalefant: 1:06
Total Hunger loss: 6 + 12.5 + 12.5 = 31

Wolfgang no carrots
Number of tracks: 8
Time it took to find and kill Koalefant: 1:06
Total Hunger loss: 29

First result is just Wigfrid finding Koala and killing it.

Second result is Wolfgang doing same thing, but also eating two carrots on the way to maintain nearly full might.

Third result is Wolfgang only eating when he actually needs to be at his 100% (but still mighty all the way). Hunger loss on this result is suprising, I expected bigger difference.

Of course the results are not perfect since no Koalefant run will be the same, but I think it can give you idea of how much "quicker" Wolfgang actually hunts, when both his speed and damage come into play.

He does it quicker, by about 13%. Not even close to "twice as fast" as people claim. Is that worth it enough to replace amazing lifesteal, way less hunger loss, tankiness and good craftable weapon and armor? Even if it would be 20% + it wouldn't be worth it. Remember that every time you are not running or fighting, Wolfgang perks fade even more.

Keep in mind this test only takes into account Wolfgang damage/speed/hunger vs Wigfrids damage/speed/hunger. Other Wigfrid perks do not even come into play in this test, while Wolfgang uses all his perks.

[SuperPsiPower]

19 hours ago, FTR said:

You don't have to take trips, you can use healing food/items when neccessary. It's just that having lifesteal ability and having option not to use any healing items even if low on hp when you know that you can safely kill few spiders to get it all back up, its huge convenience and possibly allows you to save tons of resources over time, or lifesaver if you happen not to have any healing stuff on you (like on the super long trip in winter). Also as I said before, your healing does not have to being when at 1 health, it begins when you are 199/200 health.

Your Wolfgang-gets-more-loot argument is correct but you don't take into account a lot variables like hunger loss, the fact that you don't, obviously, get that loot x2 faster (but I get to this point later), weapon durability you would potentially have to sacrafice, time and circumstances, or that Wolfgang needs that loot, Wigfrid doesn't. You seem to forget that lifesteal works on any monster, not just spiders.

Of course you will get hit from time to time, that's why having easy access to cheap powerful battle helms is just so good. You will never have to look at those ugly pigs ever again.

I lost 12% durability which is 90 points of damage which is as much as you would get gathering 15 cacti. Almost the same value in sanity, and you don't need to waste who knows how much time gathering and cooking them.

One more thing I realized is that Wolfgang actually needs at least hambat/tentacle to be able to 1 shot spiders, because otherwise he is no different than Wigfrid with huge downside. When you have hambat it's all fine, but are you willing to waste precious durability of tentacle spike/dark sword on petty spiders?

Wigfrid can't even get enough damage with a darksword to one shot them. And spiders are the easiest mobs in the whole game. Hambats aren't hard to make.

 

Well I mostly disagree. I think efficiency is all this game (and perhaps other survival games) is about. You die from lack of resources, not because you couldn't handle combat. Combat in this game is very basic, it's not like anything can 1 shot you. It's all about resources, as long as you have them, you will be fine. As long as you can heal, you will be fine. That's also possibly best advice to any new player in ds. Conserve resources, get more whenever you can and be prepared.

 

You don't need football helmet when you are not in combat, which is majority of your dst time. So you can wear eyebella just fine. I suppose backpack is matter of preference, but you can't argue that you can bring more loot on one trip than without backpack, which is the whole point. Backpack waterproof perk can also be extremely useful.

And krampus sack is just too good.

 

That's not peace because we are not having a war, we are having a discussion.

That thread just made me realize how bad Wolfgang really is. I thought he is more useful than just being amazing boss killer before I ran my tests. I had one solo dst playthrough with him, using his mighty form whenever I needed that while trying to be as efficient as possible, and I thought he is decent just not very good for efficiency and below average for solo run, except bosses which is why I picked him in the first place, but even after killing Dragonfly few times I realized it's not even worth it. 

 

He is the best at what he does, but then you realize that's not what you really need. He is greatest boss killer though, that I agree with.

 

Um? There is literally ONE meal Wigfrid can't eat that I can think of that is decent for health, which is Dragonpie.

The entire rest, Pierogis, Fishsticks, Honey Ham, Honey nuggets(LUL), Turkey Dinner, Bacon and Eggs gives loads of health and Wigfrid can eat those just fine. Those also happen to be the best meals in the game.

Which Wolfgang also has access to, amazing huh? 

 

Is that all? Let's think.

She has cheap battle spears for everyone, which are better than regular spear

She has cheap battle helms for everyone, which are way better than regular football helmet and save you time you would have to waste to get pig skins 

She has amazing lifesteal which meals she uses less resources to heal herself and restore her sanity

Wow 1 health and sanity every few hits, amazing.

Unless you find a spider-rock biome then yea its pretty good. 

^Because of that she is less likely to ever die and go insane

Cactus is plentiful in hunger and sanity - Wolfgang can reap this benefit, Wigfrid cannot.

Tankiness which also saves your precious resources

Tanking wastes the durability of your helm which contradicts the whole tank aspect of saving resources 

And she still has more damage than any other character in the game other than Wolfgang

 

Well I guess, great initial is all she has?

Eating nonmeat foods doesn't matter. It only matters early game, until you get crock pot. After that you completly forget about meat only diet downside.

Implying that spiders don't exist

 

So what is this, you are low or meat or not? Or you compare Wigfrid that's low on meat vs Wolfgang that has loads or meat? Then how does it make any sense?

If they both have meat, Wolfgang can go mighty and Wigfrid can do whatever she pleases.

If they both are short of meat, Wigfrid can still do whatever she pleases and Wolfgang is ****ed.

Incredibly inaccuately, details below

 

Ok so there is little test I did, a simple Koalefant hunt with Wigfrid and Wolfgang. There are people claiming Wolfgang is SUCH superior hunter and that speed & damage matters SO MUCH, so I decided to actually test the difference.

Why I choose Koalefant? Well I think this is the best for comparison because it's fairly predictable and it also includes a little bit of everything (combat, running, eating, "looting"), in about same proportions as the whole of dst actions you perform. So it's perfect representative of what you do at typical "food hunt".

This test is flawed because of how long it actually takes for a track to appear somewhere, and how long it takes to find the end of the trail.

 

FTFY

You're attempting to construct a slippery slope, but it's pretty clear where the line is. 

To me it sounds like you don't wanna admit you're wrong so you are making up excuses to defend your argument.

Let me make it clear that Hunger loss does NOT matter incomparison to wigfrid because wolfgang has more options for food. It doesn't take a genius to pick a few carrots laying around the map.

Lifesteal isn't a big deal either - I can make a batbat and have an even better advantage. I don't need wigfrid helms either, when I can make Logsuits. They aren't as good but they're even cheaper to make and durable enough.

[Mday]

It all depends on what you are trying to do in the game isn't it?

There are strats that can only be done by wig. Then there are other strats for other characters. Not much point comparing 2 characters without giving specific conditions and objective.

[Arlesienne]

1 hour ago, Mday said:

It all depends on what you are trying to do in the game isn't it?

There are strats that can only be done by wig. Then there are other strats for other characters. Not much point comparing 2 characters without giving specific conditions and objective.

After a dozen pages, THIS *tips hat*.

[Begeesy]

On 1/5/2017 at 6:31 PM, FTR said:

I lost 12% durability which is 90 points of damage which is as much as you would get gathering 15 cacti. Almost the same value in sanity, and you don't need to waste who knows how much time gathering and cooking them.

You couldn't be more flat out wrong on this but knowing you, you'll still have a rebuttal for this. You obviously forgot that armor only takes 80% not 100% of damage and got 15*1*6=90. I know football helmets are good, but how you put them up as a force field on your head you shouldn't have. Even assuming you did the math correctly, 15*15=225 is 73% percent bigger than 135. You gained no more than 135 sanity in that video and don't say Wolfgang has 200 sanity so he has to gain more because remember...

On 12/23/2016 at 10:41 PM, FTR said:

Maximum sanity doesn't matter that much but your intake and output.

And even assuming ALL his insanity factors are multiplied by 1.1, not just insanity aruas, it just adds 1 extra cactus rounded up. What other variables curved in in your favor you could want?

 

On 1/5/2017 at 6:31 PM, FTR said:

So what is this, you are low or meat or not? Or you compare Wigfrid that's low on meat vs Wolfgang that has loads or meat? Then how does it make any sense?

If they both have meat, Wolfgang can go mighty and Wigfrid can do whatever she pleases.

If they both are short of meat, Wigfrid can still do whatever she pleases and Wolfgang is ****ed.

 

It's funny because you're saying it like wolfgang is the character that only eat meat and relies on it heavily.

On 1/5/2017 at 6:31 PM, FTR said:

One more thing I realized is that Wolfgang actually needs at least hambat/tentacle to be able to 1 shot spiders, because otherwise he is no different than Wigfrid with huge downside. When you have hambat it's all fine, but are you willing to waste precious durability of tentacle spike/dark sword on petty spiders?

 

You should be thinking about the accumulative time that you used to kill spiders in the world that couldve been halved. Even If it was more time efficient to not collect living logs being possible earlygame and easy by lategame, couldn't you use the argument that it isn't even worth to have a darksword at all for bosses and such? I dont see the correlation between bosses are better for strong weapons than a group of small mobs since time is halved with both of them regardless with a stronger weapon. 136 damage hit saves you from doing 2 hits of 68 regardless of it being the hp of a boss or spider.(unless you're wigfrid that 2 hits spiders birth to death)

On 1/5/2017 at 6:31 PM, FTR said:

Your Wolfgang-gets-more-loot argument is correct but you don't take into account a lot variables like hunger loss, the fact that you don't, obviously, get that loot x2 faster (but I get to this point later), weapon durability you would potentially have to sacrafice, time and circumstances, or that Wolfgang needs that loot, Wigfrid doesn't.

 

My assumption of 2x faster is reasonable because the amount the hits per kite doesn't depend on how much damage you do (not to mention having 1.25 speed increases the amount of hits per kite), so you will kill stuff 2x faster yielding 2x as much loot. Of course there's a generalization but that happens when you generalize across all players of dst.

I thought you would see that she cant take advantage of nonmeat cancels out the fact he drains more 2x hunger, but let me give you more in depth. You don't actively seek out berries and carrots similar to how lifesteal you don't seek out mobs because you also collect basic resources like twigs and grass and explore the world whist picking food. The fact that almost all biomes with twigs and grass have berries and carrots help this, you get around 1/3ish of a stack of berries and carrots for each stack of grass and twigs. Note this is early/mid game where you aren't doing the dst equivalent to fire farms for food yet which makes food very ez.

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 You seem to forget that lifesteal works on any monster, not just spiders.

I addressed this in the post you're replying to, I quote myself

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for the animals that don't, hunger is easily translated into health/sanity via tent

On 1/5/2017 at 6:31 PM, FTR said:

The entire rest, Pierogis, Fishsticks, Honey Ham, Honey Nuggets, Turkey Dinner, Bacon and Eggs gives loads of health and Wigfrid can eat those just fine. Those also happen to be the best meals in the game.

 

So not only you can only eat meat which is annoying but you STILL have to cultivate berries, honey, and vegetables (therefore spending the time you said wasted on picking berries) if you want healing. Meanwhile there's a biome full of mushrooms that give you as much hp as honey nuggets that you need meat, honey and nonstick filler to create. Nonmeat crockpot foods such as Dragonpie is incomparable to meat healing as you only need to mass produce dragonfruit and can use stick for filler. Same goes with trail mix, all of its ingredients can be found in a single biome of deciduous. Also you could intentionally get a poison birchnutter to spawn to farm its minions for sticks and birchnuts. Again, mid game without fire farms.

On 1/5/2017 at 6:31 PM, FTR said:

Ok so there is little test I did, a simple Koalefant hunt with Wigfrid and Wolfgang. There are people claiming Wolfgang is SUCH superior hunter and that speed & damage matters SO MUCH, so I decided to actually test the difference.

basically what psi said, if wigfrid in wolfgang aren't getting the EXACT placements of foot prints it's invalid. Its like two racers racing on a different track and saying the one that finishes first wins.

On 1/5/2017 at 6:31 PM, FTR said:

Well I mostly disagree. I think efficiency is all this game (and perhaps other survival games) is about. You die from lack of resources, not because you couldn't handle combat. Combat in this game is very basic, it's not like anything can 1 shot you. It's all about resources, as long as you have them, you will be fine. As long as you can heal, you will be fine. That's also possibly best advice to any new player in ds. Conserve resources, get more whenever you can and be prepared.

This confirms that you'll take the more efficient over the more profitable in this example:

On 12/29/2016 at 0:33 PM, JohaneBrote said:

 

I'm a bit late to the party but it basically boils down to this: if I'm given a choice between a one time deal which would give me a hundred dollars for a single dollar investment and a deal which would give me a thousand for a hundred upfront, the 1$ deal is clearly far more efficient but the other one gives me more money.

 

 

[DragonMage156]

I feel like I should put in my 2 cents as a Wigfrid main (and fan). I read the first page but the rest I feel is TL;DR (and sorry of this issue has already been resolved).

I like Wigfrid cos she's sometimes easy to play. I wouldn't call her OP since it's harder to survive if you're low on food and health (so much so that taking on a tier 2 spider den in late Winter could be the death of you 0_0). Once you get used to her and work your way around such disadvantages, she's cool. Then again I suck at DS/T (I game I've had for over a year XD).

I've tried playing as Wolfgang a couple times in DS but I find his hunger difficult to manage. It just doesn't work out for me. And the last thing we need is his weakman's animation to remind us that his hunger is low and he can no longer win a fight against a horde of spiders.

I just prefer Wigfrid cos she's strong (maybe not as strong as Wolfgang's hulk mode), no matter the hunger. And she has the bonus of the battle helm and spear. Her stats are harder to manage due to her only meat diet but overall is still a cool character.

Please don't nerf! 0_0

[mochilo]

Wigfrid is OP because she can summon Abigail and she grows a magnificent beard.

[ShadowDuelist]

She's not OP, as stated in many posts her abilities fall flat in lategame, and I wouldn't compare her to wolfgang as they aim to have different playstyles. If Wigfrid had to be nerfed, given how easy is to start with her, the only nerf she should suffer is to not get her spear and/or helmet as starting gear ( but be able to craft them, as usual). 

[AniMike]

In relation to Wigfid, but also Wolfgang,  do they're Bonus attacks increase the attack of a domesticated Beefalo when riding them?

[SuperPsiPower]

1 hour ago, AniMike said:

In relation to Wigfid, but also Wolfgang,  do they're Bonus attacks increase the attack of a domesticated Beefalo when riding them?

No, but Wigfrid still has minimal use of lifesteal while riding, and if you're mighty Wolfgang, your beefalo gets bigger too.

[GiddyGuy]

27 minutes ago, SuperPsiPower said:

No, but Wigfrid still has minimal use of lifesteal while riding, and if you're mighty Wolfgang, your beefalo gets mighty too.

That's actually false I think it was stated that your beefalo does not gain or lose any damage depending on which character you play as, however it does grow in size if you're a mighty Wolfgang.

><

[SuperPsiPower]

21 minutes ago, SuperPsiPower said:

No, but Wigfrid still has minimal use of lifesteal while riding, and if you're mighty Wolfgang, your beefalo gets bigger too.

 

[DatShadowJK]

I don't understand the point of the topic

 

'Slowly walks away'

[DatShadowJK]

18 hours ago, mochilo said:

Wigfrid is OP because she can summon Abigail and she grows a magnificent beard.

Are you drunk or something? (I think this was a troll post xD)

[GiddyGuy]

3 minutes ago, DatShadowJK said:

Are you drunk or something? (I think this was a troll post xD)

it was more meant as a joke if anything.

[DatShadowJK]

Thats why I wrote under the reply  So anyone gonna spank me?

[DatShadowJK]

Anyways I thik both characters are gud but I'd rather stick with wendy then the she beast who will eat all your base meat

[ShadowDuelist]

It has been mentioned before that wigfrid's 25% dmg resistance is a big deal. I always thought dmg resist never stacked in dst and therefore the only time in which her 25% is taken into account is if she has no armor, given that even grass suits surpass the 25%. Under that train of thought I always saw that perk as the most useless perk she had. If this isnt the case, then how is exactly that 25% resistance applied to her in dst?

[DVGMedia]

6 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

It has been mentioned before that wigfrid's 25% dmg resistance is a big deal. I always thought dmg resist never stacked in dst and therefore the only time in which her 25% is taken into account is if she has no armor, given that even grass suits surpass the 25%. Under that train of thought I always saw that perk as the most useless perk she had. If this isnt the case, then how is exactly that 25% resistance applied to her in dst?

you can see it whenever she eats damaging items for 1 so if you eat a raw monster meat you only take 15 instead of the normal 20 and if that is the case i think hearts and effigies also take less hp from you since those are items that bypass armor too  maybe even fire damage is not as effective

 

[Mday]

3 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

It has been mentioned before that wigfrid's 25% dmg resistance is a big deal. I always thought dmg resist never stacked in dst and therefore the only time in which her 25% is taken into account is if she has no armor, given that even grass suits surpass the 25%. Under that train of thought I always saw that perk as the most useless perk she had. If this isnt the case, then how is exactly that 25% resistance applied to her in dst?

slurtle slime x2= 100 damage.
Wig max HP= 200, build-in damage resistance = 25%
Battle helm damage resistance= 80%
Marble suit damage resistance= 95%

Test 1: No armor, just the build-in damage resistance. Damage taken = 75
Test 2: Wear a battle helm. Damage taken = 15
Test 3: Wear a marble suit. Damage taken = 3

So, it does stacks.

[FTR]

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Wigfrid can't even get enough damage with a darksword to one shot them. And spiders are the easiest mobs in the whole game. 

You don't need to 1 shot them, that's mostly irrelevant. You overestimate how much damage matters in dst.

 

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Hambats aren't hard to make.

Which again shows you missing the point, I already explained it multiple times but okay. Read my posts few more times maybe you will get it.

 

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Which Wolfgang also has access to, amazing huh? 

Again missing the point. That was counterargument to someone suggesting you need dragonpie, trying to desperatly prove that Wigfrids downside has any important effect on the gameplay. It doesn't.

 

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Wow 1 health and sanity every few hits, amazing.

Unless you find a spider-rock biome then yea its pretty good. 

Unless you find spiders in the game, and there is always plentiful of them.

 

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Cactus is plentiful in hunger and sanity - Wolfgang can reap this benefit, Wigfrid cannot.

Wigfrid doesn't need to.

 

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Tanking wastes the durability of your helm which contradicts the whole tank aspect of saving resources

Tankiness does not mean you have to tank, it means you can take damage and suffer less consequences than when you would do it as other character.

 

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Implying that spiders don't exist

Well if you want to nom on monster meat go ahead.

 

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This test is flawed because of how long it actually takes for a track to appear somewhere, and how long it takes to find the end of the trail.

Doesn't matter because it doesn't have to be accurate. It still proves my point. Damage doesn't matter most of the time.

 

On 6.01.2017 at 8:45 AM, SuperPsiPower said:

FTFY

You're attempting to construct a slippery slope, but it's pretty clear where the line is. 

To me it sounds like you don't wanna admit you're wrong so you are making up excuses to defend your argument.

To me it sounds like some people are so stuck in their shortsighted set in stone opinion about Wolfgang that they refuse to think logically and critically when presented with new arguments, considering the best defense against my arguments that I see in this threat is outright ignoring them or providing counterarguments that make no sense whatsoever.

But then again this thread was started  by someone who thought gold is non-renewable so I see where it's coming from.

 

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Let me make it clear that Hunger loss does NOT matter incomparison to wigfrid because wolfgang has more options for food. It doesn't take a genius to pick a few carrots laying around the map.

You don't have to pick carrots as Wigfrid to combat your hunger problems because guess what, there are no hunger problems. Wolfgang has to waste time to actually pick carrot. Oh and then there is winter, people in this thread love to ignore that this season exsists because it ruins their berry/carrot argument.

 

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Lifesteal isn't a big deal either - I can make a batbat and have an even better advantage. I don't need wigfrid helms either, when I can make Logsuits. They aren't as good but they're even cheaper to make and durable enough.

Eh... whatever you say. At this point I am not going to even respond to this, if you didn't get it by now, you won't get it.

 

On 6.01.2017 at 7:27 PM, Begeesy said:

You couldn't be more flat out wrong on this but knowing you, you'll still have a rebuttal for this. You obviously forgot that armor only takes 80% not 100% of damage and got 15*1*6=90. I know football helmets are good, but how you put them up as a force field on your head you shouldn't have. Even assuming you did the math correctly, 15*15=225 is 73% percent bigger than 135. You gained no more than 135 sanity in that video and don't say Wolfgang has 200 sanity so he has to gain more because remember...

And even assuming ALL his insanity factors are multiplied by 1.1, not just insanity aruas, it just adds 1 extra cactus rounded up. What other variables curved in in your favor you could want?

You are right, I forgot. It still doesn't change my argument because not having to deal with cactus (or any other sanity restoration items) because or superb sanity regeneration in combat, is just obviously better. Good Wigfrid player just doesn't have sanity problems, ever. Wolfgang player always has to combat sanity drain.

 

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You should be thinking about the accumulative time that you used to kill spiders in the world that couldve been halved.

I just did video proving why it would NEVER be halved, and you immediately bring up this again. That's the whole point. Wolfgang speed and damage will never make him be x2 faster at things he does, not even close. Even at purest hunting activity he is not much quicker and if you would take into account all actions you do in dst is is actually slower, because he loses more time on having to do actions that are exclusive to him becuase of hunger/sanity drain, that Wigfrid doesn't have to. You need to be able to see big picture to realize that.

 

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I dont see the correlation between bosses are better for strong weapons than a group of small mobs since time is halved with both of them regardless with a stronger weapon. 136 damage hit saves you from doing 2 hits of 68 regardless of it being the hp of a boss or spider.(unless you're wigfrid that 2 hits spiders birth to death)

Weapons require materials, so hitting mobs that do not poses threat to you (like regular spiders that cannot even hit back most of the time), is wasting those materials. That's why I always use regular spear for spiders even when I have better weapons on me, you are more efficient this way. You better use nightmare fuel to kill monsters that can actually hit you back or drain your sanity quickly etc.

Hambat is exception to that, if you use it for nonstop 4 day rampage on monsters it's definately worth it.

 

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I thought you would see that she cant take advantage of nonmeat cancels out the fact he drains more 2x hunger, but let me give you more in depth. You don't actively seek out berries and carrots similar to how lifesteal you don't seek out mobs because you also collect basic resources like twigs and grass and explore the world whist picking food. The fact that almost all biomes with twigs and grass have berries and carrots help this, you get around 1/3ish of a stack of berries and carrots for each stack of grass and twigs. Note this is early/mid game where you aren't doing the dst equivalent to fire farms for food yet which makes food very ez.

Few things:

- you don't actively seek it so you rely on whatever you find. That means whenever you are outside of biome that has carrots/berries ur screwed

- if you actually pick twigs and grass as wolfgang, even in normal form, the best you do by picking berries/killing butterfiels is negating your extra hunger loss, which wastes a lot of your time. Wigfrid does not have to waste that time, therefore.. she is the quickest character, despite of not having any speed bonus. Amusing isn't it?

- winter - you won't find as much berries and it will only be less and less as winter goes on

- summer - no wild berries again, so winter and summer it's already like half of your total dst time when your berries argument is being trashed

Meanwhile Wigfrid lifesteal works all seasons, and actually becomes more powerful as game progresses as you get access to more and more spiders.

 

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I addressed this in the post you're replying to, I quote myself

for the animals that don't, hunger is easily translated into health/sanity via tent

 

You don't need to waste time, hunger and tent materials to sleep in the tent as Wigfrid.

 

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So not only you can only eat meat which is annoying but you STILL have to cultivate berries, honey, and vegetables (therefore spending the time you said wasted on picking berries) if you want healing.

You need to do it as any character if you want to eat so not sure what are you suggesting here. Healing it's just side effect, which is enough for Wigfrid that does not need that much healing as other characters (if any).

 

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Meanwhile there's a biome full of mushrooms that give you as much hp as honey nuggets that you need meat, honey and nonstick filler to create. Nonmeat crockpot foods such as Dragonpie is incomparable to meat healing as you only need to mass produce dragonfruit and can use stick for filler. Same goes with trail mix, all of its ingredients can be found in a single biome of deciduous. Also you could intentionally get a poison birchnutter to spawn to farm its minions for sticks and birchnuts. Again, mid game without fire farms.

Which you, again.. don't need as Wigfrid. You have a lot meat as side effect of your silk/hp/sanity farming, so dragonfruit cheapness is irrelevant. Also I would rather have food that last fresh longer, so having few bacon and eggs on you actually has huge impact on your trip because you can just eat those for a while.

 

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basically what psi said, if wigfrid in wolfgang aren't getting the EXACT placements of foot prints it's invalid. Its like two racers racing on a different track and saying the one that finishes first wins.

It is valid because it still proves the point, it doesn't have to be 100% accurate. That example was still in Wolfgang favor because it was 100% hunting (the only thing Wolfgang is good at), and in dst you do much more than that.

It was just to show my argument - damage is way less relevant than you think. I would even go as far as saying that every other of Wigfrids perks (custom items, lifesteal) beats Wolfgangs damage on it's own in usefulness.

Wolfgang's speed (preciesly Wolfgangs speed) is also way weaker than you think. It's actually never 25%, I would say usually it's like 10-15% on average. And you still waste food and side track to pick up carrots/berries. There is just no scenario in which Wolfgang is quicker and more effective than Wigfrid, overall, none.

 

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This confirms that you'll take the more efficient over the more profitable in this example:

I'm a bit late to the party but it basically boils down to this: if I'm given a choice between a one time deal which would give me a hundred dollars for a single dollar investment and a deal which would give me a thousand for a hundred upfront, the 1$ deal is clearly far more efficient but the other one gives me more money.

Wigfrid is better in both, early and late game.

 

Don't let it die!

[Begeesy]

7 hours ago, FTR said:

It is valid because it still proves the point, it doesn't have to be 100% accurate. That example was still in Wolfgang favor because it was 100% hunting (the only thing Wolfgang is good at), and in dst you do much more than that.

7 hours ago, FTR said:

I just did video proving why it would NEVER be halved, and you immediately bring up this again. That's the whole point. Wolfgang speed and damage will never make him be x2 faster at things he does, not even close.

Or is it that it proves your point so it's valid? Do I really have sit down and explain to y'all like retarded children that it's invalid?s/o to all that got the reference. You set up an experiment to see how an independent variable manipulate the dependent one. If there are confounding variables or other variables controlling the dependent, we aren't really getting the true answer and we don't know how far off from the true answer we are, putting us back at square 1. There's a reason we, pro-wolfgang-ers didn't experiment ourselves because how hard it would be to take out the confounding variables.

7 hours ago, FTR said:

Wolfgang's speed (preciesly Wolfgangs speed) is also way weaker than you think. It's actually never 25%, I would say usually it's like 10-15% on average.

Of course it's never actually 1.25 but his hunger is also actually never 3x but oh wait, that helps your argument. At this point you're just giving me more prove that your statistics is incredible. You literally pulled 10-15% out your a** since at your LOWEST(not average) speed was 19.33% at your lowest hunger 283 shown in the video (2nd trial, 1st run with Wolfgang). And don't think I'm crediting your video because I used the your food distribution when Wolfgang.

7 hours ago, FTR said:

You need to do it as any character if you want to eat so not sure what are you suggesting here. Healing it's just side effect, which is enough for Wigfrid that does not need that much healing as other characters (if any).

7 hours ago, FTR said:

- if you actually pick twigs and grass as wolfgang, even in normal form, the best you do by picking berries/killing butterfiels is negating your extra hunger loss, which wastes a lot of your time. Wigfrid does not have to waste that time, therefore.. she is the quickest character, despite of not having any speed bonus. Amusing isn't it?

What is it, does an ideal wigfrid cultivate berries/ other nonmeat food or not?

7 hours ago, FTR said:

You don't have to pick carrots as Wigfrid to combat your hunger problems because guess what, there are no hunger problems. Wolfgang has to waste time to actually pick carrot. Oh and then there is winter, people in this thread love to ignore that this season exists because it ruins their berry/carrot argument.

7 hours ago, FTR said:

- you don't actively seek it so you rely on whatever you find. That means whenever you are outside of biome that has carrots/berries ur screwed

You are implying in early game that carrots and berries is a worse food source than meat(it actually should be "you don't have to kill animals for meat as Wolfgang because carrots and berries")  but the fact that she spawns with meat and without it she would be 10 times harder in early game begs to differ.Take BluesyBuesy's lastest video for example, he easily gained enough mushrooms, carrots and berries to feed though out preparation and fighting without eating any meat EVEN IN WINTER. If having problems in winter, gang can easily switch to meat, that's the perk of having options.

7 hours ago, FTR said:

Weapons require materials, so hitting mobs that do not poses threat to you (like regular spiders that cannot even hit back most of the time), is wasting those materials. That's why I always use regular spear for spiders even when I have better weapons on me, you are more efficient this way. You better use nightmare fuel to kill monsters that can actually hit you back or drain your sanity quickly etc.

Bit extreme but punching a spider to death also saves at lot of resources too. The only example where you save weapons for bosses i can think of is a morning star for toadstool since it's always wet and you don't have to throw balloons for it to be effective. Also you're implying most bosses are hard, take how you can kill deerclops with an axe day 1. If any thing, a group of mobs can be a hassle as they can stunlock you if you mess up verus just one hit. I know everyone that ruins died to a group of Splumonkeys at least once.

7 hours ago, FTR said:

don't need as Wigfrid

7 hours ago, FTR said:

Wigfrid doesn't need to.

7 hours ago, FTR said:

You don't need to waste time, hunger and tent materials to sleep in the tent as Wigfrid

Tl;dr

In most of my arguments, you use her sustainability as a free get-out-of jail card. Applying your logic, webber would be the best character. 'Oh, wigfrid has a 1.25 damage multiplier which makes you hunt kolafant faster (not even a speed boost like Wolfgang to shorten trip of hunting which has about 75% priority in determining the time) but webber doesn't even need to hunt; he can literally stay at base and make spider wars to survive.' This isn't obviously the case though, webber is FORCED to make spider wars to survive or he'll actually be harder to play, whereas wigfrid is FORCED to kill stuff every 2 days or she'll actually be harder to play. Wolfgang can take advantage of whatever comes to him from meat to nonmeat. Characters like Wolfgang have more leg space in play style, allowing them to advance faster.

7 hours ago, FTR said:

Don't let it die!

Don't let it die but let it be presumed dead for 9 days then reply whereas I mostly reply the day after.

[AlbertDelRiver]

9 hours ago, Begeesy said:

 

Don't let it die but let it be presumed dead for 9 days then reply whereas I mostly reply the day after.

 

16 hours ago, FTR said:

 

Wigfrid is better in both, early and late game.

 

Don't let it die!

 

[PillsStealer]

Boy why won't this thread die...

 

How about this, we ban every character except Wilson. Wilson will no longer grow a beard either.

There now everyone will be equal and the same no matter what. Everybody will be a normal character with normal stats, no pros or cons.